No Knock Warrant: Another Drug Raid Nightmare

BigV · March 24, 2008, 08:02 AM

Another Drug Raid Nightmare

This past January that scenario played out at the Chesapeake, Virginia, home of 28-year-old Ryan Frederick, a slight man of little more than 100 pounds. According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels. So Frederick fired his gun.

The intruders were from the Chesapeake Police Department. They had come to serve a drug warrant. Frederick's bullet struck Detective Jarrod Shivers in the side, killing him. Frederick was arrested and has spent the last six weeks in a Chesapeake jail.

The raid in Chesapeake bears a striking resemblance to another that ended in a fatality. Last week, New Hanover County, N.C., agreed to pay $4.25 million to the parents of college student Peyton Strickland, who was killed when a deputy participating in a raid mistook the sound of a SWAT battering ram for a gunshot, and fired through the door as Strickland came to answer it.

In the case where a citizen mistakenly (and allegedly) shot through his door at a raiding police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the case where a raiding police officer mistakenly shot through a door and killed a citizen, there were no criminal charges.

STORY HERE

PWK · March 24, 2008, 09:23 AM

When stupid cops do stupid things they die. Ho hum.
This same thing happened near Houston last year. Drug bust with warrant from an informant who was trying to get a felony charge reduced. Cops did nothing to verify claim busted in house girl screams, man runs out of bedroom with no gun deputy shoots man dead no drugs found deputy back on job county pays family a couple million.
I wouldn't convict Frederick on any charge brought by the DA.

JaserST4 · March 24, 2008, 10:21 AM

I would convict him. His life wasn't in danger and he shot someone outside. He could have at least asked who it was. At 100 pounds I'm guessing the guy's a junkie and got spooked.

mvpel · March 24, 2008, 10:38 AM

The fact of whether or not his life was in danger is irrelevant - what's relevant is whether he had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger from what he presumably assumed were home-invasion robbers in the process of breaking in to his home.

JaserST4 · March 24, 2008, 10:49 AM

Nope. The robbers gotta be inside before you can shoot, even then it can be iffy depending on where you are. Some places better see a deadly weapon. The guy is screwed and rightly so.

longcoldwinter · March 24, 2008, 11:40 AM

When you can shoot, depends if you have the castle doctrine, if you do you can shoot the bg if he is outside your home in the process of breaking in, you dont have to wait tell he hauls himself into your home.

This poor guy was screwed no matter what he did, if he waited till the cops were breaking in and he fired thinking they were home invaders, they would have opened fire likely killing him. Calling 911 probably would not have helped him either as I doubt things could have been sorted out in time.

No innocent person deserves going to prison for defending your home.

ssilicon · March 24, 2008, 12:06 PM

So depending on the laws there, it is up in the air if the guy should be a criminal for that, but he is being charged so that should say something about the law there. He should have been more sure of the threat before shooting.

As to the cop who shot an unarmed man in his own home when the man ran in after hearing his daughter cry out... that cop should BE CHARGED, and definitely off the force. There just is no excuse for that.

JaserST4 · March 24, 2008, 12:19 PM

Quote:

This poor guy was screwed no matter what he did, if he waited till the cops were breaking in and he fired thinking they were home invaders, they would have opened fire likely killing him. Calling 911 probably would not have helped him either as I doubt things could have been sorted out in time.

No, he wasn't a victim, he erred. He could have asked who it was but instead used lethal force. He had options and picked the wrong one.

ericp · March 24, 2008, 12:27 PM

"I wouldn't convict Frederick on any charge brought by the DA."

"No innocent person deserves going to prison for defending your home."

+1

Brick · March 24, 2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

No, he wasn't a victim, he erred. He could have asked who it was but instead used lethal force. He had options and picked the wrong one.

Probably wasn't much time to do that.

How do you know he had options?

Wildalaska · March 24, 2008, 12:32 PM

Call me when the Court proceedings are over. This thread is gonna be nothing but netnoise speculation based on personal prejudices.

WildcoolgunlaertcomingsoonAlaska TM

PWK · March 24, 2008, 12:41 PM

You can't be serious JaserS. In a situation like this considering your options and asking whose there is a good way to get yourself killed. Maybe the cops could have announced who they were, maybe somebody in law enforcement could have taken a few seconds to ask is a no knock warrant justified for a few ounces of marijuana maybe the judge could have demanded some corroborating evidence, maybe law enforcement could stop being flat out lazy.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

JaserST4 · March 24, 2008, 01:38 PM

How can you have time to get your gun and shoot but not ask who's there? A no-knock warrant is exactly that. I doubt the cops got one and went to all that for a few ounces of weed though. The facts seem to indicate that the cop shot was still outside, outside isn't your domain. If it was me, I would get my flashlight and gun, next to the bed and ask who's there.
Problem avoided. Unless the city doesn't pay for the door.

Rant Casey · March 24, 2008, 01:41 PM

Hard to say what id do when push comes to shove. I do know I wouldn't fire through a door unless I saw a horde of marauders carrying tec-9s screaming and running toward my house. Murder charge? No. Manslaughter? Yes. Although to be honest, I do know that jail time wouldn't be warrented IMO if he was infact innocent of the drug charges. If he was guilty of the drug charges, even without killing the officer, I say string 'em up.

Jermtheory · March 24, 2008, 02:16 PM

someone busting through your door....

"who is it?...may i help you?"

lol!

if anything he should have said "stop or i'll shoot!".

an "attacker" doesnt need to be inside your home...SD doesnt stop at the front door.

YukonKid · March 24, 2008, 02:28 PM

Cops are supposed to knock before entering, if they don't have permission to enter then anything they find is not permissible in court.

I think he did the right things, and depending on what the court decides is "reasonable doubt" for the danger he is in, it could go either way.

I hope he gets off, he does not deserve to go to jail for defending himself and his home. If the guy was just standing outside then it would be different.

YK

WIN71 · March 24, 2008, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Cops are supposed to knock before entering, if they don't have permission to enter then anything they find is not permissible in court.

It may be helpful to review what a no knock warrant actually is.

thallub · March 24, 2008, 03:20 PM

"This thread is gonna be nothing but netnoise speculation based on personal prejudices."

+1

Tom2 · March 24, 2008, 03:22 PM

Busting in the doors of your house based on information from criminals with nothing to lose does seem like a recipe for disaster to me. I would hope that someone in the chain of command asks for more information other than, "bubba the dirtbag snitch said he saw some drugs in that guy's house over there, let's kick in the door and see for ourselves". Or when they hit the wrong house next door and tear up jack, that seems to be that someone is not doing very good research?

bushidomosquito · March 24, 2008, 04:02 PM

Two kinds of people shoot when cops are at the door, bad ass thugs who have decided they won't be taken alive and innocent people who are fearing a home invasion and unaware (because police place more importance on getting to that dimebag that justifies their intrusion before it gets flushed than anyones saftey) that they're cops. I hate to say it but cops getting killed by their own stupid tactics may be the only thing that makes them stop and think before the go all rambo on the wrong person. A little old fasioned detective work will tell them if the house they want to bash into is the right one or not. If lawsuits and dead innocents and fear of prosecution dosen't make them rethink their stupid and dangerous tactics then maybe the threat of getting killed will.

JaserST4 · March 24, 2008, 04:22 PM

A no-knock warrant is a stupid tactic deserving of death? Some of you guys scare me, I hope the hell you never move into my neighborhood. The practice is carried out for good reason. It's illegal to shoot before you even see your target, again for a good reason. Maybe his cell mate will offer him plenty of comfort.

bushidomosquito · March 24, 2008, 04:26 PM

It's getting cops and innocent people killed. It's not the most brilliant plan ever. There are plenty of other ways to get the bad guys. How about waiting until they come out and can see your uniforms? Then if they shoot it's pretty apparent that you found the right house.

VonFireball · March 24, 2008, 05:27 PM

Remember when cops used to actually show courtesy even to criminals?

Remember when they had to knock and how much more civil society was in general?

As though a no knock warrant is gonna do something.

If the guy is a real dealer, stalling for time to flush pound after pound of contraband down the toilet ain't gonna cut it. If he can get it all down his toilet in time, it makes him a small time dealer who just flushed his stash, a victory for the cops and a major setback for the dealer.

Way I see it is like this:

I'm sitting at home, minding my own business. Suddenly, my door is blown off the hinges by men clothed in black ski mask(s) or other face coverings.

Anyone can yell "POLICE, GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!". It's not just a line limited to law enforcement.

Face it, any normal human being hearing his door fly off it's hinges is going for his gun. It's the normal thing to do.

What if they were armed thugs, dressed in black, making a home invasion robbery? POLICE, DOWN ON THE GROUND!!!! would be a great opening line for one of the scumbags to shout in order to gain an upper hand.

Until I see the ATF, DEA, POLICE, or US MARSHALL logos I ain't droppin that gun for nobody. In fact, I would shoot any home intruder who failed to be able to properly identify themselves. Unmarked cops dressed in black carrying sinister and evil looking black weapons included.

It's no small wonder more cops are killed these days. Look at the heavy handed tactics some of these police departments like to use.

As the home invasion/no knock warrant style entry continues to be used more and more, you'll see the body count pile up. Maybe, if enough incidents are there, the morons who are supposed to "serve and protect" us will actually reconsider the way they go about enforcing warrants.

No, they'd rather go after them first blood style, rather than catching them at their job or outside their house (i.e where the guns and drugs are stashed).

That wouldn't be sensible though, because then they could kick down the door in much greater safety.

Brick · March 24, 2008, 05:56 PM

We can all babble on "what I'd do if..." but the reality is you could do something really different if you were actually there.

Similar point. Many people would never pick up a fella on the road waiting for a ride. But flip things around (where YOU become the person waiting for a ride) and now YOU want someone to give you a quick ride. You don't mean any harm anyways....?

Quote:

Until I see the ATF, DEA, POLICE, or US MARSHALL logos I ain't droppin that gun for nobody. In fact, I would shoot any home intruder who failed to be able to properly identify themselves. Unmarked cops dressed in black carrying sinister and evil looking black weapons included.

Right-o. Story in Katrina. Some cops were thugging around (and I mean thugging around) and a fella asked a cop for his ID. Flipped his ID wallet so fast you couldn't even tell what it was.

Makes it less geniune. Even further, I -PLAN- (not, "when I get there, I'll do this) to scrutinze ID heavily. No ID? erg....

JaserST4 · March 24, 2008, 05:57 PM

I read several police forums and they seem to be for it for the most part. Reason being, while you are politely ringing the bell or knocking they are flushing the evidence down the hopper. Or arming up for battle. Being armed and on guard is one thing, shooting an unseen target is another. If the cops are as bad as some of you seem to think, why is the guy still breathing?

March 24, 2008, 08:02 AM	#1
BigV Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 328	No Knock Warrant: Another Drug Raid Nightmare Another Drug Raid Nightmare This past January that scenario played out at the Chesapeake, Virginia, home of 28-year-old Ryan Frederick, a slight man of little more than 100 pounds. According to interviews since the incident, Frederick says when he looked toward his front door, he saw an intruder trying to enter through one of the lower door panels. So Frederick fired his gun. The intruders were from the Chesapeake Police Department. They had come to serve a drug warrant. Frederick's bullet struck Detective Jarrod Shivers in the side, killing him. Frederick was arrested and has spent the last six weeks in a Chesapeake jail. The raid in Chesapeake bears a striking resemblance to another that ended in a fatality. Last week, New Hanover County, N.C., agreed to pay $4.25 million to the parents of college student Peyton Strickland, who was killed when a deputy participating in a raid mistook the sound of a SWAT battering ram for a gunshot, and fired through the door as Strickland came to answer it. In the case where a citizen mistakenly (and allegedly) shot through his door at a raiding police officer, the citizen is facing a murder charge; in the case where a raiding police officer mistakenly shot through a door and killed a citizen, there were no criminal charges. STORY HERE

March 24, 2008, 09:23 AM	#2
PWK Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2000 Location: Pearland, TX Posts: 297	When stupid cops do stupid things they die. Ho hum. This same thing happened near Houston last year. Drug bust with warrant from an informant who was trying to get a felony charge reduced. Cops did nothing to verify claim busted in house girl screams, man runs out of bedroom with no gun deputy shoots man dead no drugs found deputy back on job county pays family a couple million. I wouldn't convict Frederick on any charge brought by the DA. __________________ NRA member, TSRA member

March 24, 2008, 10:38 AM	#4
mvpel Senior Member Join Date: May 18, 2000 Location: Hooksett, NH Posts: 1,847	The fact of whether or not his life was in danger is irrelevant - what's relevant is whether he had a reasonable belief that his life was in danger from what he presumably assumed were home-invasion robbers in the process of breaking in to his home. __________________ Not a blacksmith could be found in the whole land of Israel, because the Philistines had said, "Otherwise the Hebrews will make swords or spears!" 1 Samuel 13:19

March 24, 2008, 12:27 PM	#9
ericp Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2008 Posts: 114	"I wouldn't convict Frederick on any charge brought by the DA." "No innocent person deserves going to prison for defending your home." +1 __________________ NRA Member

March 24, 2008, 12:41 PM	#12
PWK Senior Member Join Date: October 30, 2000 Location: Pearland, TX Posts: 297	You can't be serious JaserS. In a situation like this considering your options and asking whose there is a good way to get yourself killed. Maybe the cops could have announced who they were, maybe somebody in law enforcement could have taken a few seconds to ask is a no knock warrant justified for a few ounces of marijuana maybe the judge could have demanded some corroborating evidence, maybe law enforcement could stop being flat out lazy. Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. __________________ NRA member, TSRA member

March 24, 2008, 10:21 AM	#3
JaserST4 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Posts: 516	I would convict him. His life wasn't in danger and he shot someone outside. He could have at least asked who it was. At 100 pounds I'm guessing the guy's a junkie and got spooked.

March 24, 2008, 10:49 AM	#5
JaserST4 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Posts: 516	Nope. The robbers gotta be inside before you can shoot, even then it can be iffy depending on where you are. Some places better see a deadly weapon. The guy is screwed and rightly so.

March 24, 2008, 11:40 AM	#6
longcoldwinter Member Join Date: February 20, 2008 Posts: 68	When you can shoot, depends if you have the castle doctrine, if you do you can shoot the bg if he is outside your home in the process of breaking in, you dont have to wait tell he hauls himself into your home. This poor guy was screwed no matter what he did, if he waited till the cops were breaking in and he fired thinking they were home invaders, they would have opened fire likely killing him. Calling 911 probably would not have helped him either as I doubt things could have been sorted out in time. No innocent person deserves going to prison for defending your home.

March 24, 2008, 12:06 PM	#7
ssilicon Senior Member Join Date: May 5, 2005 Posts: 459	So depending on the laws there, it is up in the air if the guy should be a criminal for that, but he is being charged so that should say something about the law there. He should have been more sure of the threat before shooting. As to the cop who shot an unarmed man in his own home when the man ran in after hearing his daughter cry out... that cop should BE CHARGED, and definitely off the force. There just is no excuse for that.

March 24, 2008, 12:32 PM	#11
Wildalaska Junior member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: In my own little weird world in Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 14,172	Call me when the Court proceedings are over. This thread is gonna be nothing but netnoise speculation based on personal prejudices. WildcoolgunlaertcomingsoonAlaska TM

March 24, 2008, 01:38 PM	#13
JaserST4 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Posts: 516	How can you have time to get your gun and shoot but not ask who's there? A no-knock warrant is exactly that. I doubt the cops got one and went to all that for a few ounces of weed though. The facts seem to indicate that the cop shot was still outside, outside isn't your domain. If it was me, I would get my flashlight and gun, next to the bed and ask who's there. Problem avoided. Unless the city doesn't pay for the door.

March 24, 2008, 01:41 PM	#14
Rant Casey Senior Member Join Date: March 7, 2008 Location: AZ Posts: 441	Hard to say what id do when push comes to shove. I do know I wouldn't fire through a door unless I saw a horde of marauders carrying tec-9s screaming and running toward my house. Murder charge? No. Manslaughter? Yes. Although to be honest, I do know that jail time wouldn't be warrented IMO if he was infact innocent of the drug charges. If he was guilty of the drug charges, even without killing the officer, I say string 'em up.

March 24, 2008, 02:16 PM	#15
Jermtheory Senior Member Join Date: September 20, 2007 Posts: 1,283	someone busting through your door.... "who is it?...may i help you?" lol! if anything he should have said "stop or i'll shoot!". an "attacker" doesnt need to be inside your home...SD doesnt stop at the front door.

March 24, 2008, 02:28 PM	#16
YukonKid Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: NW Posts: 744	Cops are supposed to knock before entering, if they don't have permission to enter then anything they find is not permissible in court. I think he did the right things, and depending on what the court decides is "reasonable doubt" for the danger he is in, it could go either way. I hope he gets off, he does not deserve to go to jail for defending himself and his home. If the guy was just standing outside then it would be different. YK __________________ This is ten percent luck, twenty percent skill Fifteen percent concentrated power of will Five percent pleasure, fifty percent pain And a hundred percent reason to remember the name!

March 24, 2008, 03:20 PM	#18
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	"This thread is gonna be nothing but netnoise speculation based on personal prejudices." +1

March 24, 2008, 03:22 PM	#19
Tom2 Senior Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: Ohio Posts: 5,676	Busting in the doors of your house based on information from criminals with nothing to lose does seem like a recipe for disaster to me. I would hope that someone in the chain of command asks for more information other than, "bubba the dirtbag snitch said he saw some drugs in that guy's house over there, let's kick in the door and see for ourselves". Or when they hit the wrong house next door and tear up jack, that seems to be that someone is not doing very good research? __________________ Your gun is like your nose, it is just wrong for someone else to pick it for you!

March 24, 2008, 04:02 PM	#20
bushidomosquito Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2007 Location: Kansas City Posts: 434	Two kinds of people shoot when cops are at the door, bad ass thugs who have decided they won't be taken alive and innocent people who are fearing a home invasion and unaware (because police place more importance on getting to that dimebag that justifies their intrusion before it gets flushed than anyones saftey) that they're cops. I hate to say it but cops getting killed by their own stupid tactics may be the only thing that makes them stop and think before the go all rambo on the wrong person. A little old fasioned detective work will tell them if the house they want to bash into is the right one or not. If lawsuits and dead innocents and fear of prosecution dosen't make them rethink their stupid and dangerous tactics then maybe the threat of getting killed will. __________________ "Jack Bauer sleeps with a pillow under his gun." "Bush is listening, use big words."

March 24, 2008, 04:22 PM	#21
JaserST4 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Posts: 516	A no-knock warrant is a stupid tactic deserving of death? Some of you guys scare me, I hope the hell you never move into my neighborhood. The practice is carried out for good reason. It's illegal to shoot before you even see your target, again for a good reason. Maybe his cell mate will offer him plenty of comfort.

March 24, 2008, 04:26 PM	#22
bushidomosquito Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2007 Location: Kansas City Posts: 434	It's getting cops and innocent people killed. It's not the most brilliant plan ever. There are plenty of other ways to get the bad guys. How about waiting until they come out and can see your uniforms? Then if they shoot it's pretty apparent that you found the right house. __________________ "Jack Bauer sleeps with a pillow under his gun." "Bush is listening, use big words."

March 24, 2008, 05:27 PM	#23
VonFireball Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 354	Remember when cops used to actually show courtesy even to criminals? Remember when they had to knock and how much more civil society was in general? As though a no knock warrant is gonna do something. If the guy is a real dealer, stalling for time to flush pound after pound of contraband down the toilet ain't gonna cut it. If he can get it all down his toilet in time, it makes him a small time dealer who just flushed his stash, a victory for the cops and a major setback for the dealer. Way I see it is like this: I'm sitting at home, minding my own business. Suddenly, my door is blown off the hinges by men clothed in black ski mask(s) or other face coverings. Anyone can yell "POLICE, GET DOWN ON THE GROUND!". It's not just a line limited to law enforcement. Face it, any normal human being hearing his door fly off it's hinges is going for his gun. It's the normal thing to do. What if they were armed thugs, dressed in black, making a home invasion robbery? POLICE, DOWN ON THE GROUND!!!! would be a great opening line for one of the scumbags to shout in order to gain an upper hand. Until I see the ATF, DEA, POLICE, or US MARSHALL logos I ain't droppin that gun for nobody. In fact, I would shoot any home intruder who failed to be able to properly identify themselves. Unmarked cops dressed in black carrying sinister and evil looking black weapons included. It's no small wonder more cops are killed these days. Look at the heavy handed tactics some of these police departments like to use. As the home invasion/no knock warrant style entry continues to be used more and more, you'll see the body count pile up. Maybe, if enough incidents are there, the morons who are supposed to "serve and protect" us will actually reconsider the way they go about enforcing warrants. No, they'd rather go after them first blood style, rather than catching them at their job or outside their house (i.e where the guns and drugs are stashed). That wouldn't be sensible though, because then they could kick down the door in much greater safety.

March 24, 2008, 05:57 PM	#25
JaserST4 Senior Member Join Date: November 30, 2007 Posts: 516	I read several police forums and they seem to be for it for the most part. Reason being, while you are politely ringing the bell or knocking they are flushing the evidence down the hopper. Or arming up for battle. Being armed and on guard is one thing, shooting an unseen target is another. If the cops are as bad as some of you seem to think, why is the guy still breathing?