P08 Luger serial # has three digits..not four

DTW2012 · March 25, 2012, 04:43 PM

Hi,

From what I've read, I should expect my P08 luger to have a serial # with four digits or four digits and a letter.

However, it has only three digits.

Do I have a problem here or just need additional resources to place this?

(s/42 with a good deal of its "strawing" and a unit inscription placing it with a Bavarian machine gun squad)

thank you

James K · March 25, 2012, 05:00 PM

German military numbering always began at 1 (no leading zeros), then to 9999, then to 1a to 9999a, 1b to 9999b and so on for each manufacturer in each year.

So there would be a fair number of three digit numbers, even if those with letter suffixes are not included.

But there may be a problem with that gun. S/42 is a WWII era code for Mauser, starting in 1934, but the Germans did not use unit markings in WWII, and by 1934 there was no separate Bavarian army. Maybe I am missing something but could the gun be mismatched?

Pictures would help.

Jim

DTW2012 · April 14, 2012, 07:17 PM

Sorry, I was away on business for a few weeks.
I will take and post pics ASAP.
Thanks.

Note.. The 3 digit serial do match on all points and the last two on the toggle.

DTW2012 · April 27, 2012, 12:07 AM

here are a few pics

DTW2012 · April 27, 2012, 12:10 AM

and two more..

my error on the statement of S/42..that is not present.
I must have been reading about so many others that do have that..and it stuck.
and the Bavarian may actually be Belgium..the owner of the shop where I purchased it mis - states names or details (like Parker/LC Smith/AH Fox) all the time. He kept saying bavarian..until I found that he wrote belgium.

Jim Watson · April 27, 2012, 12:20 AM

That is an old one, a P08 with no stock lug looks like pre-1914 maybe late 1913 at the latest.
Show more markings.

DTW2012 · April 27, 2012, 01:33 AM

really..that's very interesting

here are a few markings

(not sure if the one on the barrell is a marking or something else)

I may have to try again..I couldn't keep the phone steady enough for a sharp close pic.

James K · April 28, 2012, 05:37 PM

OK, that S/42 really had me going as the gun is clearly marked as DWM. Is there a date on the top of the front receiver ring?

The B in the unit mark is for Bavaria, which at that start of WWI was a separate Kingdom, though in a mililtary alliance with Prussia, the leading German state. "Germany" technically did not yet exist as a unified nation; it was still made up of several smaller states.

B. 4 R. M.G. 75 indicates the pistol number 75 of the machinegun company of the 4th Bavarian Regiment or, in the order on the gun, Bavarian 4 Regiment, Machinegun [company] # 75.

Jim

gyvel · April 28, 2012, 08:06 PM

What's the chamber date????

mapsjanhere · April 29, 2012, 07:52 AM

James, the German Reich of 1871 was a unified nation, with a head of state and a constitution, a two-chamber congress and a single foreign policy. The interior of each state was managed more by the individual states, more CSA like than USA, but compared to the predecessor northern confederation it was a unified nation and not just a lose group of states.

James K · April 29, 2012, 06:57 PM

Technically true, but there were some 27 of those "states" in the German Empire, including Bavaria, which was a Kingdom headed by Ludwig III (the "mad" Ludwig II was his cousin), so it is a bit hard to see it as a "unified nation", or even as a federal system. The Bavarian Army was at least nominally a separate entity, headed by its crown prince, Rupprecht, who had the misfortune to have his throne removed before he had a chance to sit down.

Jim

mapsjanhere · April 30, 2012, 10:42 PM

Well, can't have an empire unless you have subordinate kingdoms

gyvel · May 1, 2012, 12:39 AM

Again: What's the chamber date?

DTW2012 · May 1, 2012, 06:40 AM

Chamber date: I don't know...recent purchase and I'm just getting to know it. How do you determine the chamber date ?

Jim Watson · May 1, 2012, 07:44 AM

The chamber date is the date over the chamber, on top of the gun in plain view.
If it has one, not all do. A military model should, a commercial model not.

mapsjanhere · May 1, 2012, 11:38 AM

This would be an example picture of 1915 DWM

DTW2012 · May 2, 2012, 06:48 AM

Ah, thanks. That would be obvious...
Mine does not have that date.
Were the dates stamped on pistols regardless of which military ...

gyvel · May 2, 2012, 07:40 AM

Something isn't adding up here. It has Imperial proofs on it, and a regimental assignment, but no chamber date. It's definitely a military gun.

mapsjanhere · May 2, 2012, 12:36 PM

German officers could purchase their own handguns, so it's not surprising that commercial guns made it to the front in large numbers. Once there, I'm sure more than one officer gun landed in the hands of a NCO who had to have their guns inventoried.

mete · May 2, 2012, 01:58 PM

I know of two P-08 s with the same serial number ! War time confusion causes many irregular situations.

James K · May 3, 2012, 01:04 PM

Some interesting theories, but a much simpler explanation. The Luger (Parabellum) pistol was adopted in 1908 (hence, Pistole 1908 or P.08) but uniform marking standards were still being worked up and the earliest date marked was 1910. That pistol is one of about 20,000 made in that period. The three digit serial is legitimate, it is the 592nd Parabellum pistol made for the German military, and IMHO, a very valuable piece, especially in that condition.

JIm

DTW2012 · May 4, 2012, 10:10 PM

Thank you. Well, I feel a lot better about it now.
I took it to a smith near my new job for a careful go-over.
He has a few Lugers and a regular who is in deep with them.
They really got a kick out of it. although it checked out and is terrific shape...they advised me not to use it..they hadn't seen one like it.
Hadn't planned on a safe queen but nice to know it's special.

March 25, 2012, 04:43 PM	#1
DTW2012 Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 8	P08 Luger serial # has three digits..not four Hi, From what I've read, I should expect my P08 luger to have a serial # with four digits or four digits and a letter. However, it has only three digits. Do I have a problem here or just need additional resources to place this? (s/42 with a good deal of its "strawing" and a unit inscription placing it with a Bavarian machine gun squad) thank you

April 29, 2012, 07:52 AM	#10
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	James, the German Reich of 1871 was a unified nation, with a head of state and a constitution, a two-chamber congress and a single foreign policy. The interior of each state was managed more by the individual states, more CSA like than USA, but compared to the predecessor northern confederation it was a unified nation and not just a lose group of states. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

April 30, 2012, 10:42 PM	#12
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Well, can't have an empire unless you have subordinate kingdoms __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 1, 2012, 11:38 AM	#16
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	This would be an example picture of 1915 DWM __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

May 2, 2012, 12:36 PM	#19
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	German officers could purchase their own handguns, so it's not surprising that commercial guns made it to the front in large numbers. Once there, I'm sure more than one officer gun landed in the hands of a NCO who had to have their guns inventoried. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

March 25, 2012, 05:00 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	German military numbering always began at 1 (no leading zeros), then to 9999, then to 1a to 9999a, 1b to 9999b and so on for each manufacturer in each year. So there would be a fair number of three digit numbers, even if those with letter suffixes are not included. But there may be a problem with that gun. S/42 is a WWII era code for Mauser, starting in 1934, but the Germans did not use unit markings in WWII, and by 1934 there was no separate Bavarian army. Maybe I am missing something but could the gun be mismatched? Pictures would help. Jim

April 14, 2012, 07:17 PM	#3
DTW2012 Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 8	Sorry, I was away on business for a few weeks. I will take and post pics ASAP. Thanks. Note.. The 3 digit serial do match on all points and the last two on the toggle.

April 27, 2012, 12:20 AM	#6
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	That is an old one, a P08 with no stock lug looks like pre-1914 maybe late 1913 at the latest. Show more markings.

April 28, 2012, 05:37 PM	#8
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	OK, that S/42 really had me going as the gun is clearly marked as DWM. Is there a date on the top of the front receiver ring? The B in the unit mark is for Bavaria, which at that start of WWI was a separate Kingdom, though in a mililtary alliance with Prussia, the leading German state. "Germany" technically did not yet exist as a unified nation; it was still made up of several smaller states. B. 4 R. M.G. 75 indicates the pistol number 75 of the machinegun company of the 4th Bavarian Regiment or, in the order on the gun, Bavarian 4 Regiment, Machinegun [company] # 75. Jim

April 28, 2012, 08:06 PM	#9
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	What's the chamber date????

April 29, 2012, 06:57 PM	#11
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Technically true, but there were some 27 of those "states" in the German Empire, including Bavaria, which was a Kingdom headed by Ludwig III (the "mad" Ludwig II was his cousin), so it is a bit hard to see it as a "unified nation", or even as a federal system. The Bavarian Army was at least nominally a separate entity, headed by its crown prince, Rupprecht, who had the misfortune to have his throne removed before he had a chance to sit down. Jim

May 1, 2012, 12:39 AM	#13
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Again: What's the chamber date?

May 1, 2012, 06:40 AM	#14
DTW2012 Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 8	Chamber date: I don't know...recent purchase and I'm just getting to know it. How do you determine the chamber date ?

May 1, 2012, 07:44 AM	#15
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	The chamber date is the date over the chamber, on top of the gun in plain view. If it has one, not all do. A military model should, a commercial model not.

May 2, 2012, 06:48 AM	#17
DTW2012 Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 8	Ah, thanks. That would be obvious... Mine does not have that date. Were the dates stamped on pistols regardless of which military ...

May 2, 2012, 07:40 AM	#18
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Something isn't adding up here. It has Imperial proofs on it, and a regimental assignment, but no chamber date. It's definitely a military gun.

May 2, 2012, 01:58 PM	#20
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	I know of two P-08 s with the same serial number ! War time confusion causes many irregular situations. __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

May 3, 2012, 01:04 PM	#21
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Some interesting theories, but a much simpler explanation. The Luger (Parabellum) pistol was adopted in 1908 (hence, Pistole 1908 or P.08) but uniform marking standards were still being worked up and the earliest date marked was 1910. That pistol is one of about 20,000 made in that period. The three digit serial is legitimate, it is the 592nd Parabellum pistol made for the German military, and IMHO, a very valuable piece, especially in that condition. JIm

May 4, 2012, 10:10 PM	#22
DTW2012 Junior Member Join Date: March 25, 2012 Posts: 8	Thank you. Well, I feel a lot better about it now. I took it to a smith near my new job for a careful go-over. He has a few Lugers and a regular who is in deep with them. They really got a kick out of it. although it checked out and is terrific shape...they advised me not to use it..they hadn't seen one like it. Hadn't planned on a safe queen but nice to know it's special.

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