M1 vs 11-87

Kobra · April 22, 2002, 03:30 PM

Inertia-operated versus gas-operated?

I have a SBE and I know from use of it that if fired off the hip it will eject the shell but not load the next. No matter how hard I try to hold it. It has to have something to push against to load.

So...

Wouldn't an inertia-operated gun be a disadvantage in a tactical situation where a problem might occur when you can shoulder a gun before firing.

Oleg Volk · April 22, 2002, 04:13 PM

1187
- simpler manual of arms by far
- much less felt recoil

M1
- lighter gun

runt just got an 1187P, so our household voted in the most earnest way for the 1187. IMO, the M1 is a fine gun but the manual of arms is much too complex (ditto for the Beretta and Franchi shotguns of the same general type). I have not tested the M1, but a long-recoil Remington 11 (Auto 5 clone) would fail to cycle only if I held it deliberately loose and fired birdshot...with heavier ammo or even slightly firm hold it would cycle fine.

shooter1201 · April 22, 2002, 09:46 PM

I've owned both a Benelli Super90 and a Beretta 1201FP. I just acquired a Remington 11-87 Police Model. While the 11-87 IS easier on my shoulder, it swings like a danged BOAT ANCHOR, and is MUCH slower to reload.

Kobra · April 23, 2002, 11:40 AM

I was just curious of this aspect from my own experiences. If I shoulder my SBE it loads the next shell every time (no matter what load of shell) but from the hip never.

As you will see below I own a 11-87 too and I really like it. And the way it works as long as you can squeeze the trigger it will fire and load the next one. Same for my dad's A-5 and my buddy's X-2's.

In a hunting situation I don't consider this a disadvantage but in a tactical situation where you may be injuried to prevent the shouldering of a gun I could see a potential problem. However it will at least fire so if you could make the first shot count it may not be as big a problem.

jthuang · April 23, 2002, 11:05 PM

The 11-87 is a gas gun. Gas guns are more finicky when dirty. Inertia operated guns like the Benelli are less prone to malfing when dirty and they don't care about things like o-rings failing. This is more of an issue "in the field" when you can't clean your gun, but for everyday use, it may not be a problem.

I have to try shooting my M1S90T from the hip to see if it will malf. Mine has never hiccuped on me before, even with low-recoil Federal and Remington ammo. This even with a Surefire Responder fore-end weighing the gun down.

Justin

Kobra · April 24, 2002, 01:20 PM

Maybe a SBE is just slightly different enough that a M1 could fire. But I experimented with 20 different shells the day I discovered it while shooting clays with a buddy. I tried to hold it as tight as possible (I am in pretty decent shape BTW) and I could never get it to load after firing. But put the buttstock into something..shoulder, leg, ground....and bam it loads!

Inertias are definitely easier to maintain and that too would be a tactical advantage.....so which is more important I guess.

norielX · April 24, 2002, 06:51 PM

Is maintenance considered a tactical advantage? I mean, it's really convenient for the inertia-recoil owner when it comes to cleaning, but if I'm shooting either gas or inertia gun enough to warrant a cleaning, I figure that I'm in a war, and I should have a battle rifle in my hand!

If this hip-firing problem really is a problem, then I think the tactical advantage would go to the gun with more firing positions available for use.

I've got an 1100, and am going to get a benelli M3 in the future. These damn shotguns, they're worse than crack!

Kernel · April 25, 2002, 10:22 AM

I think you need to disassemble your SBE's bolt and lube the locking lugs and bolt-cam with a quality gun grease. I've had a 12ga M1 Field for many years and a 20ga Montefelltro and have never had any problems with short cycling. In fact I took my M1 out once with a case of light Federal loads (the cheapest stuff they sell at Wal-Mart), and tried to make the gun short cycle.

I held it loose, shot it "John Wayne" style from the hip, held it at arms length so it could recoil freely.... what ever I tried it just kept on cycling. Finally I tired jerking the gun to the rear as I pulled the trigger, essentially putting a negative G on the inertia mechanism. It stilled cycled. I played with it for a while, after about 6 rounds, I got the timing and technique just right. I could make it short cycle but only when jerking the gun violently to the rear in a very unnatural manner, and even then I couldn't make it do it 100% of the time.

That been my experience. Your SBE shouldn't be so finicky. Lube up the moving contact surfaces inside with a good grease (not oil) and give it another try. -- Kernel

Kobra · April 25, 2002, 01:48 PM

Kernel thanks for the advice. I will try that next time I shot it and then have to clean it.

HKguy9 · April 25, 2002, 09:09 PM

Kobra, I have both an SBE with 26" bbl and an M1 Super 90. I got the SBE a year ago, and the M1 3 months ago.

The SBE is finicky with super-light loads. I use high-brass loads for the best reliability. I installed the recoil reducing unit and it won't feed ANYTHING but high brass loads.

The M1 Super 90 hasnt' failed a single time, even with light loads and a Tacstar sidesaddle SQUEEEEEEEZED onto it. Maybe I just got lucky?

Cthulhu · April 30, 2002, 02:55 AM

My Beretta 1201FP (which is functionally identical to the M1/SBE) will fire if held at hip level, so I would tend to agree with the earlier diagnosis of improper or insufficient lubrication. The only way I've managed to make it short cycle is to hold the gun extended with one hand and fire it like a pistol. Put that buttstock against the shoulder and it will cycle with 100% reliability, even with just the firing hand on the pistol grip. I'm not so sure I see the true disadvantage of your SBE inability to fire when held at waist level. The position itself isn't particularly valuable, even at close ranges, and I would only fire it from that orientation if there is no possibility of improving it's mounting. The so called close assault position, with the buttstock clamped in the armpit works 100%, allows one handed semi-automatic firing with decent control, fast indexing using the front sight blade/bead, and shortens the length that the shotgun is extended from the body. Not as solid or accurate as a proper shoulder mount, but far better than point firing it from the hip.

Fatelvis · May 27, 2002, 11:19 AM

Ive had 2 M1 fields, and 1 Monefeltro, and NONE of the three of them, have EVER malfuntioned. And admittedly, Im not really up on maintaining my shotguns, by cleaning and lubing them, after every round of clays. Id say thats pretty reliable. Just thought I`d comment.

April 22, 2002, 03:30 PM	#1
Kobra Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2001 Location: LA - KY (Cajun Hillbilly) Posts: 338	M1 vs 11-87 Inertia-operated versus gas-operated? I have a SBE and I know from use of it that if fired off the hip it will eject the shell but not load the next. No matter how hard I try to hold it. It has to have something to push against to load. So... Wouldn't an inertia-operated gun be a disadvantage in a tactical situation where a problem might occur when you can shoulder a gun before firing.

April 22, 2002, 04:13 PM	#2
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	1187 - simpler manual of arms by far - much less felt recoil M1 - lighter gun runt just got an 1187P, so our household voted in the most earnest way for the 1187. IMO, the M1 is a fine gun but the manual of arms is much too complex (ditto for the Beretta and Franchi shotguns of the same general type). I have not tested the M1, but a long-recoil Remington 11 (Auto 5 clone) would fail to cycle only if I held it deliberately loose and fired birdshot...with heavier ammo or even slightly firm hold it would cycle fine. __________________ Oleg "peacemonger" Volk blog.olevolk.net

April 22, 2002, 09:46 PM	#3
shooter1201 Member Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Shiloh, TN CSA Posts: 96	I've owned both a Benelli Super90 and a Beretta 1201FP. I just acquired a Remington 11-87 Police Model. While the 11-87 IS easier on my shoulder, it swings like a danged BOAT ANCHOR, and is MUCH slower to reload. __________________ PREDATOR or PREY? The choice is yours.....

April 23, 2002, 11:05 PM	#5
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	The 11-87 is a gas gun. Gas guns are more finicky when dirty. Inertia operated guns like the Benelli are less prone to malfing when dirty and they don't care about things like o-rings failing. This is more of an issue "in the field" when you can't clean your gun, but for everyday use, it may not be a problem. I have to try shooting my M1S90T from the hip to see if it will malf. Mine has never hiccuped on me before, even with low-recoil Federal and Remington ammo. This even with a Surefire Responder fore-end weighing the gun down. Justin __________________ Justin T. Huang late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

April 24, 2002, 06:51 PM	#7
norielX Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 164	Is maintenance considered a tactical advantage? I mean, it's really convenient for the inertia-recoil owner when it comes to cleaning, but if I'm shooting either gas or inertia gun enough to warrant a cleaning, I figure that I'm in a war, and I should have a battle rifle in my hand! If this hip-firing problem really is a problem, then I think the tactical advantage would go to the gun with more firing positions available for use. I've got an 1100, and am going to get a benelli M3 in the future. These damn shotguns, they're worse than crack! __________________ -- norielX

April 23, 2002, 11:40 AM	#4
Kobra Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2001 Location: LA - KY (Cajun Hillbilly) Posts: 338	I was just curious of this aspect from my own experiences. If I shoulder my SBE it loads the next shell every time (no matter what load of shell) but from the hip never. As you will see below I own a 11-87 too and I really like it. And the way it works as long as you can squeeze the trigger it will fire and load the next one. Same for my dad's A-5 and my buddy's X-2's. In a hunting situation I don't consider this a disadvantage but in a tactical situation where you may be injuried to prevent the shouldering of a gun I could see a potential problem. However it will at least fire so if you could make the first shot count it may not be as big a problem.

April 24, 2002, 01:20 PM	#6
Kobra Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2001 Location: LA - KY (Cajun Hillbilly) Posts: 338	Maybe a SBE is just slightly different enough that a M1 could fire. But I experimented with 20 different shells the day I discovered it while shooting clays with a buddy. I tried to hold it as tight as possible (I am in pretty decent shape BTW) and I could never get it to load after firing. But put the buttstock into something..shoulder, leg, ground....and bam it loads! Inertias are definitely easier to maintain and that too would be a tactical advantage.....so which is more important I guess.

April 25, 2002, 10:22 AM	#8
Kernel Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 1999 Location: Madison, WI.... "78 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality" Posts: 923	I think you need to disassemble your SBE's bolt and lube the locking lugs and bolt-cam with a quality gun grease. I've had a 12ga M1 Field for many years and a 20ga Montefelltro and have never had any problems with short cycling. In fact I took my M1 out once with a case of light Federal loads (the cheapest stuff they sell at Wal-Mart), and tried to make the gun short cycle. I held it loose, shot it "John Wayne" style from the hip, held it at arms length so it could recoil freely.... what ever I tried it just kept on cycling. Finally I tired jerking the gun to the rear as I pulled the trigger, essentially putting a negative G on the inertia mechanism. It stilled cycled. I played with it for a while, after about 6 rounds, I got the timing and technique just right. I could make it short cycle but only when jerking the gun violently to the rear in a very unnatural manner, and even then I couldn't make it do it 100% of the time. That been my experience. Your SBE shouldn't be so finicky. Lube up the moving contact surfaces inside with a good grease (not oil) and give it another try. -- Kernel __________________ "You can shoot down every MiG the Soviets employ, but if you return to base and the lead Soviet tank commander is eating breakfast in your snack bar, Jack, you've lost the war." — Anonymous A-10 Pilot, USAF

April 25, 2002, 01:48 PM	#9
Kobra Senior Member Join Date: January 17, 2001 Location: LA - KY (Cajun Hillbilly) Posts: 338	Kernel thanks for the advice. I will try that next time I shot it and then have to clean it.

April 25, 2002, 09:09 PM	#10
HKguy9 Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2001 Posts: 2,132	Kobra, I have both an SBE with 26" bbl and an M1 Super 90. I got the SBE a year ago, and the M1 3 months ago. The SBE is finicky with super-light loads. I use high-brass loads for the best reliability. I installed the recoil reducing unit and it won't feed ANYTHING but high brass loads. The M1 Super 90 hasnt' failed a single time, even with light loads and a Tacstar sidesaddle SQUEEEEEEEZED onto it. Maybe I just got lucky? __________________ P7M8, VP9

April 30, 2002, 02:55 AM	#11
Cthulhu Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 132	My Beretta 1201FP (which is functionally identical to the M1/SBE) will fire if held at hip level, so I would tend to agree with the earlier diagnosis of improper or insufficient lubrication. The only way I've managed to make it short cycle is to hold the gun extended with one hand and fire it like a pistol. Put that buttstock against the shoulder and it will cycle with 100% reliability, even with just the firing hand on the pistol grip. I'm not so sure I see the true disadvantage of your SBE inability to fire when held at waist level. The position itself isn't particularly valuable, even at close ranges, and I would only fire it from that orientation if there is no possibility of improving it's mounting. The so called close assault position, with the buttstock clamped in the armpit works 100%, allows one handed semi-automatic firing with decent control, fast indexing using the front sight blade/bead, and shortens the length that the shotgun is extended from the body. Not as solid or accurate as a proper shoulder mount, but far better than point firing it from the hip.

May 27, 2002, 11:19 AM	#12
Fatelvis Senior Member Join Date: June 10, 2001 Location: Lockport, IL Posts: 490	Ive had 2 M1 fields, and 1 Monefeltro, and NONE of the three of them, have EVER malfuntioned. And admittedly, Im not really up on maintaining my shotguns, by cleaning and lubing them, after every round of clays. Id say thats pretty reliable. Just thought I`d comment.