My Thoughts on UFC... What're yours? (Long) - Page 2

TaxPhd · March 1, 2002, 12:37 PM

Batman,

Wasn't it Pete Williams that knocked out Mark Coleman with the kick to the head?

Danger Dave · March 1, 2002, 01:04 PM

"What you're describing here is more of an attack than a fight. Most dirty street brawlers would much prefer an attack than a fight. Hitting someone over the head with a bat from behind and going hand-to-hand are two different things."

EXACTLY! Fighting "fair" - what is that? A fight between a 215lb professional boxer and a 215lb couch potatoe? The High School running back & the 125 lb captain of the chess club? Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions.

You don't win by "fighting" fair (again, I say anything with the word "fair" in it is not a fight). You win by finding what advantage you have, and using it on your opponent. My instructor put it simply - "Don't fight their fight - make them fight yours."

Forget about "fair" - they'd leave you a way out, if they thought they could lose.

(BTW, I use the word "win" for lack of a better one - in a fight, if you go home when it's over, you've "won" by not getting seriously hurt or killed - or finding yourself in serious legal trouble).

Skorzeny · March 1, 2002, 08:22 PM

Matt Willis:

Your renewed observation about the Kimo/Royce fight is on the mark (and amazingly enough, consistent with my observation

).

One must remember, however, the HUGE disparity in physical attributes between Kimo and Royce (Royce was a stick man back then and not much better now). That certainly makes the victory more "skillful." But, as I've always said, physical attributes are important elements for a "fighter," which is why Rickson Gracie looks like he does, his incredible skill and timing notwithstanding.

Quote:

Tank" Abbot had a game plan that he stuck to and it worked for him; "Just keep punching until the problem goes away".

Actually, Tank Abbot had a great strategy - 1) out-punch guys whom he could OR 2) double-leg down the guys he could not, pin them against the cage and "ground & pound." Where he went wrong is encountering superior fighters who could 1) out-punch him (or at least not quite from being out-punched) AND 2) wouldn't be tackled down and pinned.

Quote:

Wasn't it Pete Williams that knocked out Mark Coleman with the kick to the head?

Yes it was. Maurice Smith, too, put on a kickboxing clinic against Mark Coleman. Coleman, to his credit though, learned to be more well-arounded and garnered himself a HUGE Pride tournament win.

Skorzeny

Skorzeny · March 1, 2002, 08:25 PM

Danger Dave:

Quote:

Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions.

You are assuming that the "fighter" in question is in a rational frame of mind. Some, because of pathology, others, because of alcohol, drugs or vanity, fight against someone who is clearly about to squash him like a bug.

But then again, as I wrote before, a fight is a very chancy thing - there is no such thing as a certain victory.

Skorzeny

RobRPM2222 · April 27, 2002, 10:12 PM

I'm a big fan of MMA/NHB ( Mixed Martial Art/No Holds Barred ) fighting. I also train it periodically.

btw, a REALLY good discussion forum for MMA is the Underground Forum, at http://www.mma.tv .

anyways, MMA fighting is not street fighting. that's pretty obvious. There are no weapons allowed, you can wear (VERY LIGHT) gloves, you know who you will be fighting beforehand, there is the presence of consent, etc. Some people get hung up on the fact it's a sport, but after you see boxers KO guys who do super deadly mall ninja systems, or amateur wrestlers put overweight Soldier of Fortune-wannabe combatives guys who have never broken a sweat during training in the hospital, you realize how powerful combat sports can be. Of course, there are limitations to sports too, such as the lack of foul tactics.

MMA fighters of today are WAYYY more skilled than the guys who fought back in 1993-1995. They can fight at all ranges- standup striking, standup grappling, ground grappling, ground striking. ANYONE who thinks there is less skill in the current MMA world hasn't been paying attention.

One of the guys who fights out of the school I go to is training with an Olympic wrestling coach, going to a local boxing gym daily, driving to a large city once a week to train Muay Thai with a world champion, is training at the jujutsu school I go to 3 times a week, AND is running his own school in another city. That's not counting the cardio and weight regime he is on. He would chop all of the guys who fought in the first 4 UFC's into liver. Royce excepted. And he hasn't even made it big yet. Guys who have made it big train even harder, because they can afford to train full-time.

Now compare that to most of the participants in the early UFC's, who trained a few times a week.

Rickson Gracie has a legend built up around him, from being the best of the Gracies. However, he's never, ever, fought world-class opponents in their prime in MMA. The best fighter he has fought was Mas Funaki, who was already wrecked physically by 8+ CONTINUOUS years of fighting for the Pancrase organization, and pro wrestling for many years before that. We will probably never find how good Rickson is, because he demands very large amounts of money to fight anyone, which puts off many promoters. It is alleged by some that Rickson has ducked Sakuraba. Rickson also claims a rather ridiculous record of 460-0, which includes fights in the ring, challenge matches, sport BJJ matches, judo competitions, and sombo competitions. This is in spite of the fact that Rickson is known to have lost at least one of the matches he is claiming on his record, in a sombo match.

March 1, 2002, 12:37 PM	#26
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	Batman, Wasn't it Pete Williams that knocked out Mark Coleman with the kick to the head? __________________ TaxPhd "Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it." "Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat as necessary." - B. Braxton

March 1, 2002, 01:04 PM	#27
Danger Dave Senior Member Join Date: April 21, 1999 Location: Dallas, GA, USA Posts: 791	"What you're describing here is more of an attack than a fight. Most dirty street brawlers would much prefer an attack than a fight. Hitting someone over the head with a bat from behind and going hand-to-hand are two different things." EXACTLY! Fighting "fair" - what is that? A fight between a 215lb professional boxer and a 215lb couch potatoe? The High School running back & the 125 lb captain of the chess club? Nobody picks a fight with someone they consider equal in fighting attributes to them. They pick someone they have a perceived advantage over. You HAVE to assume you'll be fighting someone bigger, stronger, more experienced, more aggressive, armed, or with a buddy - in other words, someone who has reason to believe he can beat you without serious repercussions. You don't win by "fighting" fair (again, I say anything with the word "fair" in it is not a fight). You win by finding what advantage you have, and using it on your opponent. My instructor put it simply - "Don't fight their fight - make them fight yours." Forget about "fair" - they'd leave you a way out, if they thought they could lose. (BTW, I use the word "win" for lack of a better one - in a fight, if you go home when it's over, you've "won" by not getting seriously hurt or killed - or finding yourself in serious legal trouble). __________________ I hope these evil men come to understand our peaceful ways soon - My trigger finger is blistering!

April 27, 2002, 10:12 PM	#30
RobRPM2222 Junior Member Join Date: April 27, 2002 Posts: 11	UFC/Pride/Shooto/etc. I'm a big fan of MMA/NHB ( Mixed Martial Art/No Holds Barred ) fighting. I also train it periodically. btw, a REALLY good discussion forum for MMA is the Underground Forum, at http://www.mma.tv . anyways, MMA fighting is not street fighting. that's pretty obvious. There are no weapons allowed, you can wear (VERY LIGHT) gloves, you know who you will be fighting beforehand, there is the presence of consent, etc. Some people get hung up on the fact it's a sport, but after you see boxers KO guys who do super deadly mall ninja systems, or amateur wrestlers put overweight Soldier of Fortune-wannabe combatives guys who have never broken a sweat during training in the hospital, you realize how powerful combat sports can be. Of course, there are limitations to sports too, such as the lack of foul tactics. MMA fighters of today are WAYYY more skilled than the guys who fought back in 1993-1995. They can fight at all ranges- standup striking, standup grappling, ground grappling, ground striking. ANYONE who thinks there is less skill in the current MMA world hasn't been paying attention. One of the guys who fights out of the school I go to is training with an Olympic wrestling coach, going to a local boxing gym daily, driving to a large city once a week to train Muay Thai with a world champion, is training at the jujutsu school I go to 3 times a week, AND is running his own school in another city. That's not counting the cardio and weight regime he is on. He would chop all of the guys who fought in the first 4 UFC's into liver. Royce excepted. And he hasn't even made it big yet. Guys who have made it big train even harder, because they can afford to train full-time. Now compare that to most of the participants in the early UFC's, who trained a few times a week. Rickson Gracie has a legend built up around him, from being the best of the Gracies. However, he's never, ever, fought world-class opponents in their prime in MMA. The best fighter he has fought was Mas Funaki, who was already wrecked physically by 8+ CONTINUOUS years of fighting for the Pancrase organization, and pro wrestling for many years before that. We will probably never find how good Rickson is, because he demands very large amounts of money to fight anyone, which puts off many promoters. It is alleged by some that Rickson has ducked Sakuraba. Rickson also claims a rather ridiculous record of 460-0, which includes fights in the ring, challenge matches, sport BJJ matches, judo competitions, and sombo competitions. This is in spite of the fact that Rickson is known to have lost at least one of the matches he is claiming on his record, in a sombo match. __________________ Jujutsu!