Ammunition accuracy...

[JohnKSa]

Shot a 9mm Beretta CX4 carbine yesterday. (Bear with me, this is actually handgun related.) After everything was adjusted and shooting to point of aim, I shot a 5 shot group at 25 yards to check accuracy.

The five shots came in at 13/16ths of an inch, center-to-center of the outside two rounds. That's 0.813" for the fractionally challenged folks.

I'm not saying that's as good as the ammunition or gun could possibly shoot because I wasn't shooting from a rest. I'm just saying that was a pretty decent group for 9mm ammunition.

What kind of 9mm ammunition, you ask? The much maligned 100round bulk-packed Winchester USA from Wal-Mart--commonly called WWB.

The point is, of course, that because WWB tends to be thought of as a price-point product, we might well jump to the conclusion that it's not as accurate as some of the other practice ammunition offerings on the market.

It seems that it shoots as well as anyone could expect 9mm ammunition to shoot in spite of its low price. So the next time you're agonizing over whether or not saving a little on ammunition purchases will hurt your chances of winning your next match you can remember this thread and put your mind at ease.

Yeah, I know--one less thing we can blame when the on-target results aren't pleasing.

[giaquir]

That's 0.813" for the fractionally challenged folks.

And for the people who like to be accurate 0.8125!

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

That's 0.813" for the fractionally challenged folks.

...I wasn't shooting from a rest. I'm just saying that was a pretty decent group for 9mm ammunition.

eh...that's a "pretty decent" group (really excellent, in fact) no matter how you cut it. A keeper, fer sure.

[JohnKSa]

It would have been cause for major celebration had it been from a pistol. From a carbine it wasn't quite as gratifying. I was just impressed that the ammunition itself was that accurate. I've probably been guilty of commenting that WWB isn't as accurate as some of the other practice ammo out there but clearly it shoots very well.

[AK103K]

I have a bunch of WWB 9mm I picked up over time, back when it was still less than $20/100, put away for a rainy day. Even now, its still a pretty good deal, and still basically case lot prices, by the box, and no shipping.

I shoot some of it here and there, and its always been "good enough". Never really shot it for pure accuracy though.

I think you will have to keep shooting it, over a number of "lots", before you can really have a true answer. You may have just got a good one, and something not really representative of what to expect. I have gone through that a good bit with Wolf 7.62x39, some of the old Norinco/China Sports 9mm, and others over the years. Some cases shoot great, others, you might as well be throwing rocks.

Since it was a carbine you were using, you should take it out to 100 yards too, and that will really show whats what. I used to shoot my MP5 at 100 with a little Beeman SS-3 mounted. Using my usual "blasting" ammo at the time, the Norinco, which up close, usually shot ragged little groups, I was getting 12"+ groups at 100 yards.

Switched over to the Federal 9BP that was in my carry mags that day, and I was shooting 3" groups at the same distance, the very next target.

While the Norinco was usually (actually, read that "normally") sporadic at longer distances, the Federal 9BP was always consistent and accurate when I tried it, and what I normally kept in my mags for anything other than range use.

[jmr40]

Maybe it is only because I'm only an average shot with a handgun, but I've not noted enough difference in accuracy between any brand of handgun ammo to worry about. I do believe that some brands have a higher rate of failure. Some shoot faster, and there might be some minor advantages to some brands of HP ammo. That I pay attention to, but don't obsess over.

Rifle ammo is a different matter.

[BubbaBlades]

I shoot each of my guns with as many different bullet weights and brands of ammo as possible. I record the results for all 21 different calibers that I shoot on spreadsheets. I shoot at a distance of 50 feet or 75 feet 95%+ of the time.

I have found that numerous examples of the same gun (model, barrel length etc.) shoot a particular brand and weight of ammo to a different POI than their exact twin does.

In the above 9mm spreadsheet, 9 of the guns that I have tested shoot Winchester White Box (WWB) ammo to perfect elevation and windage (shown as ~/~ on the chart) The Glock 19 shot the WWB ammo into a single cloverleaf (shown on the chart as ~/~*).

Mark aka BubbaBlades

[JohnKSa]

Since it was a carbine you were using, you should take it out to 100 yards too, and that will really show whats what.

If the goal is to quantify the performance of the ammo at 100 yards, that would be an excellent test.

If the goal is merely to show that the ammo can shoot a 5 shot group under an inch at 25 yards--better than the vast majority of handgunners can manage with a pistol and good enough to shoot a perfect score in bullseye--then we're already there.

I used to shoot my MP5 at 100 with a little Beeman SS-3 mounted. Using my usual "blasting" ammo at the time, the Norinco, which up close, usually shot ragged little groups, I was getting 12"+ groups at 100 yards.

I appreciate what you're saying, but there are no mainstream pistol competitions that involve shooting a 9mm to 100 yards and self-defense incidents involving handguns at those ranges are similarly scarce.

It's interesting to know that the groups will open up at a non-linear rate somewhere between 25 and 100 yards, but the practical benefit of such knowledge is somewhat limited. After all, there are folks who get irate when it is suggested that being able to hit things at "astronomical distances" like 25 yards is a valuable skill.

The takeaway from the OP is that folks having issues getting small groups at 10 or 15 yards shouldn't seize on the ammunition as being a likely cause. This anecdote suggests that even the bargain practice ammo is more than capable of making little tiny groups out to 75 feet.

BubbaBlades,

I can't see any accuracy figures (group sizes) on the chart--or if I'm seeing them, I can't read/understand them.

The Glock 19 shot the WWB ammo into a single cloverleaf (shown on the chart as ~/~*).

Did you measure the group? Also, at what distance was it shot & how many rounds were in the group?

I have found that numerous examples of the same gun (model, barrel length etc.) shoot a particular brand and weight of ammo to a different POI than their exact twin does.

Differences in POI and even, to a lesser extent, group size wouldn't surprise me much. There are a lot of small variations between different examples of the same make/model of locked breech (non-fixed barrel) pistols and it doesn't take a lot of variation to create differences in POI and accuracy.

In fact, in my experience, it's a better bet to blame the handgun than it is to blame the ammunition when there's an accuracy problem and the shooter has TRULY been eliminated as the cause.

[BubbaBlades]

John,
Thank you for asking your questions. To clarify, my spreadsheets simply show where the group hits in relationship to my point of aim. Many of my guns have non-adjustable sights and knowing where they shoot is very important to me.
On my guns with adjustable sights, I have selected a load that meets my needs for that particular gun and I don't usually adjust the sights once I have set them.
Most of my ammo testing is done at a distance of 50 feet. My group size is usually less than 1 1/2". All of my shooting is done off-hand with unmodified guns.

I have 11 YouTube videos of me actually shooting various guns from .22LR thru 460 Magnum (search Youtube for: BubbaBladesfla). My targets in the videos are 1/2" diameter or 1" diameter Shoot'n'see repair dots. The target distance is 75 feet. In the .44 magnum video and the 986 9mm video, I am shooting with my right hand and filming with my camera in my left hand.

Mark aka BubbaBlades

The above 7 shot .22 group was shot with a S&W 317 at a distance of 45 feer. The group measures less than 1/2". Ammo was the cheapest brand at the range.

[RamItOne]

I've never considered that different pistol ammo would affect accuracy. Rifle, sure I've seen big differences between my .308 rounds.
I can see accuracy in rapid shooting being affected by how hot the load is, but in regular target shooting, nope I've never complained nor thought about it being the ammos fault for a bad group.

[JohnKSa]

Mark,

I get it! It's like keeping track of the zero on rifles. I once knew an avid airgunner who attached tags to each of his airguns with the trajectory and "favorite" pellet for that particular air rifle.

Thanks for the explanation.

I've never considered that different pistol ammo would affect accuracy.

I've seen comments about how one type of ammunition is really accurate while another isn't when discussing handguns. In fact, I've probably been guilty of it myself. Lately I've been doing some experiments to see how much effect ammunition really has on handgun accuracy.

This was one, I did another one awhile back where I shot a number of different types of ammunition through the same gun and into the same group.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=495039

[SauerGrapes]

I guess you could see a difference out of a carbine.
I've shot some WWB 45acp. It shot one ragged hole groups @ 50 ft from a production 1911. Never really understood the bashing.

I still contend, it's the Indian, not the arrow.

[MrBorland]

Originally Posted by BubbaBlades

The above 7 shot .22 group was shot with a S&W 317 at a distance of 45 feer.

Gives me warm fuzzies

Nice shootin'

[Nick_C_S]

You'll never hear me badmouth WWB.

Over the years, I've bought tons of it for 9mm, 38Spl (the most), & 45ACP (and to a lesser extent, 44Mag). I have always been quite pleased with its performance - in all calibers.

It has been my experience that Winchester brass is the best for reloading; hence, my motivation for their purchase. But brass aside, I like the ammo too.

[rocket12]

my only problem with wwb, is that its the filthest ammo I have ever shot

[JohnKSa]

It's even worse out of a blowback action (like the CX4 carbine) compared to out of a locked breech gun...

[zincwarrior]

I found Winchester WWB to be reasonably accurate 9mm round. I would not touch it for .22LR though due to a massive amount of misfires.

Interestingly I see a lot of posts about this ammo being bad, and that being bad, what exactly is good ammo?


Also interestingly, I have 9mm ammo from a maker during the heady low point of the Obama Bullet Bubble II made in mid 2013. I also have boxes from June of this year. The ammunition from this year has an approximate spread of 1/3 of the 2013 ammo. Looking at it directly, you can see the 2013 ammo physically doesn't look nearly as uniform.

[kraigwy]

Wow, one of the most "common sense" post I've read in a long time.

I don't have a 9mm rifle, but I've found the same thing with 38s. I shoot cheap. Using range lead, tumble lubed, un-sized bullets and what ever brass or primer that hits the Dillon.

The day I can get my 642 to shoot that load as well as my Marlin 38/357 Rifle then I'll worry about fancy ammo.

[tahunua001]

I don't not buy wwb because of a fear of innacuracy. I don't buy it because I've seen one too many mashed casings, boxes of rounds all seated different depths and story after story of hangfires and fail to fires.

[WESHOOT2]

I learned the gun doesn't care who made it or what it cost or its reputation; each gun decides for itself what it will shoot accurately.

Ay?