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June 21, 2009, 07:36 PM | #51 | |
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*An interesting title with built-in assumptions about which side most folks fall on. |
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June 21, 2009, 07:39 PM | #52 | |||||
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June 21, 2009, 07:41 PM | #53 | |
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June 21, 2009, 07:46 PM | #54 | |
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From post #26
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June 21, 2009, 07:54 PM | #55 | |||
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Last edited by bigger hammer; June 21, 2009 at 08:00 PM. |
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June 21, 2009, 07:56 PM | #56 | ||
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A. Prove that you live at the address you are interested in and that you are either the owner, or renter on the lease ? B. Prove that you are legally married to, or co-habitating with any person in that home ? C. Prove that there is actually an emergency at that address that would require a forced entry ? If you can do all those things, ( answer honestly ) then you are well beyond the ability of the average person. And unless you can do all of those things, to the satisfaction of a police officer, you are right back at square one. Quote:
Do you rent ? Or have a friend or relative that rents, ? If so, have someone go to the manager, or super, and tell them you think someone inside may need medical attention, see if they will unlock the door on that premise. Your findings should prove to be educational. You mentioned having the police contact the landlord and ask for access, the answer to that question is simple, the police do not have a legal right to do so, and most landlords are not gonna risk a lawsuit from a tenant for opening that door without a warrant to do so. The what-if's in this story are mind-boggling at the least. It seems that if someone hears the words "pregnant woman" or "child" that somehow common sense, and legalities go right out the window. This situation is not that difficult to understand, If it worked the way you imagine it should, then you would never have any expectation of privacy, either in a home you own, or especially in a home you rent.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 21, 2009 at 08:09 PM. |
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June 21, 2009, 08:01 PM | #57 | |
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Some posters have some convoluted ideas about what the Police should do, how bout simply calling a friend or relative to save the day....repeating myself. Last edited by Wagonman; June 22, 2009 at 01:07 AM. |
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June 21, 2009, 08:35 PM | #58 | |
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What I find "fascinating" is that you believe that, from 4 hours away, the husband HAS that prerogative. Again I ask : How will he Prove he is the rightful owner, or tenent at that address? Drivers license ? That only says he lives there, nothing more. Unless he happens to have a Deed or Lease with him he is short on proof. How will he Prove that the woman at the address is his Wife, Girlfriend, etc.? Hope he has his marriage license, Oh ! I know ! a Picture of them together ! How will he prove that this woman even lives there, or exists for that matter? How will he Prove that there is an emergency, or for that matter, that she is even home ? Car in the driveway ? Maybe, or, she could have left with someone. The "imagination" possibilities are boundless.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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June 21, 2009, 11:41 PM | #59 |
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I almost agree with OUTCAST.
I had a similar situation happen to me 10 years ago. My mother living in another state 7 hours away. Talked to her Thursday night, advised her would not call on Friday, flew home on Saturday, and tried to call. No answer...Tried later, no answer, checked with all close relatives, no body knew anything. Call the local police for a welfare check....they followed all the steps of above, and could see nothing....but did report seeing her walker...If the walker was there she was there. I had to call out a locksmith, and have him open the door for the police, ($125). There they found my mother laying on the floor knees bloody from trying to get up for 3 days. She had fallen off the bed hanging up the phone after talking to me on Thursday.... So having a locksmith open the door was the key difference in my case. (And probably cheaper than repairing a kicked in door. |
June 22, 2009, 02:51 PM | #60 | ||
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( I'll bet that once the door was opened the officers merely had to shout, and hear a response from your Mother before they were justified to enter the house) Also, the thing some folks just don't seem to understand is, if the police officers in the OP had looked in the window and actually seen anything IE: Blood, overturned furniture, the toddler running around, or heard any noise such as a moan, cry, scream, They would have booted the door. Sorry to hear your Mom had to go through that ordeal and, glad things turned out OK.
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 22, 2009 at 03:02 PM. |
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June 22, 2009, 03:50 PM | #61 | ||||||
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By your criteria, he wouldn't have been able to authorize entry if he were standing on the porch, because the documents you think are required would be in the house. If the husband were suspected of a crime and there were probable cause, his address of record (as in driver's license) would be entirely sufficient to get a search warrant for the premises. The judge would assume the information to be correct and issue the warrant. Why, then wouldn't it be sufficient for the lawful occupant to verify his home address for the purposes of a welfare check? Quote:
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June 22, 2009, 05:12 PM | #62 | ||||
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Those reasons are the same reasons that a "Forcible Entry" is not likely to be authorized by a dispatcher over a phone, or another cop 4 hours away. It's this inconvenient little thing called the Constitution. Quote:
ETA: I have been involved in more locked threads, and had more accusations of "cop bashing" leveled at me than almost anyone else on this subfora; yet, even I can see the officers acted responsibly in this case. How the hell did this happen?
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - Last edited by OuTcAsT; June 22, 2009 at 05:27 PM. Reason: spelling |
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June 22, 2009, 05:35 PM | #63 |
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On your drug lab the cops will get a search warrant then bust the door so they won't lose all their evidence in court. The only way to kick the door is if you can explain how there were exigent circumstances that led you to believe kicking the door was the only thing to do. If the officers walked around the house looking in windows and saw her on the floor you are good to go. Unfortunatly in todays Sue happy world Morally right or wrong legally they were right.
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June 22, 2009, 06:36 PM | #64 |
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Fascinating. Not only do I find myself completely convinced of the other side of an argument, I am in wonder at those who still are not.
You won't hear this come out of my mouth or off my keyboard very often, but I admire the patience and tenacity coming from you "coppahs" in this one. |
June 22, 2009, 06:49 PM | #65 | |
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Ok what does this get me?
"Hello 911, I am standing on the porch at my elderly fathers house, he asked me to come visit a few minutes ago, but now he doesn't answer the door and I think he is home because I see his hat thru the window and he never goes anywhere without his fedora. He has heart trouble so I'm kinda worried, can you send someone over?" Does this get his door forcibly opened to check on him, or do you have to wait till someone complains about a foul smell a week later? Is there no middle ground?
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June 22, 2009, 07:23 PM | #66 |
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If you don't have a key, rental agreement or a deed with your name on it, you are obviously wanting to break in to the house for nefarious reasons unrelated to to the health of your father. There is no legal path available to you to come to the aid of your father without endangering the careers of the officers who take the call. I wouldn't wait for the police to open the door if I were you.
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June 22, 2009, 07:28 PM | #67 | |
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Yes, well I usually have a tire iron in the car so if it ever comes up, and this is really how it is....no need to bother anyone with my troubles.
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June 22, 2009, 07:35 PM | #68 | ||
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Good question, let's analyze ; You are: "Standing on the porch of your elderly Father's house" and you can get "no answer" at the door, You seem to have a suspicion that he is home, due to the forgotten fedora. Further, you fear that, since he has a history of "heart trouble" his health might be in jeopardy. Since you do not have any legal constraints such as, probable cause, nor are you bound by laws against Illegal Search And it is unlikely that your Father, if he is still alive, will prosecute you for breaking and entering or burglary (even if you are wrong) I would think the logical course of action would be for You to forcibly enter the house, by whatever means necessary. I would think the next logical step would be to verify your Father's presence, and condition. The Final step would be to call 911 and request medical help if he is still alive, or request Police assistance if he has expired. Of course, if he is simply not home you will likely have some 'splainin' to do to him, and a door to repair. Quote:
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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June 22, 2009, 07:43 PM | #69 | ||||
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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June 22, 2009, 07:47 PM | #70 | |
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Well I ask out of curiosity, and leading this thread down a slippery slope isn't the attempt, but you are suggesting that I take responsibility when in doubt and that seems reasonable enough to me.
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June 22, 2009, 07:53 PM | #71 | |
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Last edited by Shadi Khalil; June 22, 2009 at 09:10 PM. |
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June 22, 2009, 08:02 PM | #72 | |
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WITHOUT Freedom of Thought, there can be no such Thing as Wisdom; and no such Thing as public Liberty, without Freedom of Speech. Silence Dogood Does not morality imply the last clear chance? - WildAlaska - |
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June 22, 2009, 08:43 PM | #73 |
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Yes, you most certainly do, from my perspective. Thanks for the show.
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June 22, 2009, 09:36 PM | #74 | |
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RE: the OP. I think the coppers acted on the level in this situation. Of course, I would have been upset had it been my wife and all, but I would have been equally upset if I was laying on the couch asleep and the boys in black(they don't wear blue here) busted my door in because some smartarsed neighbor or friend called in a 'welfare check.' When I was younger, go ahead and laugh, I felt like cops used the law as a reason to act on one extreme or the other. Now that I work in armed security and spend a great deal of time BS'ing with our local LEO's and working around them, I can understand a great deal of why they do what they do.
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"You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas." ---Colonel David Crockett Matt 6:33 Last edited by DougO83; June 22, 2009 at 09:45 PM. |
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June 22, 2009, 09:58 PM | #75 | |
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