.357 magnum reload data discrepency

GARANDSLAM · March 11, 2008, 07:16 PM

Hello all, new member here with a little problem. I have been reloading for about 10 years now and am very familiar with the basic protocol's.I am familiar with .45acp,9x19,.38spl,30'06,.270,.223,.40s&w and a couple of others. My dilemma is with .357 magnum. I have a speer #14 manual and it states for 125g metal jacket bullet(theirs of course) is 9.5 to 10.5 gr. of power pistol with standard primers. In case it matters I am using winchester primers. On the Alliant website it states a max charge of 9.2 gr. of power pistol for 125g jsp but with a federal 200 primer which is a magnum primer. I have loaded and shot 10 grains of power pistol with standard win. primer and the 125 g bullet. The primer showed no flattening and the cases extracted very easily. By the way the gun is a ruger sp101 with the 2.25" barrell. I was wondering if my load of 10 gr. with the standard primer is safe. I am a little gun shy(no pun intended) as I have been experimenting with trying to find good loads heavy and light for practice. I made up some loads with Hercules 2400 circa late 60's early 70's. The power is fine and very consistent. I started working up loads with standard primers and 158 gr. jhp's. Each load was shot 5 times with the exception of the ones I had problems with.I started with 12.6 gr for chrono. avg. of 950 fps,2nd for 13.5 gr with 995 fps avg. and 3rd for 14.0 gr. with 1005 fps avg.The standard deviation was no more that 10 fps +or-. The 14 gr. being the max charge of 2400 with std. primer per the alliant website. Then I got stupid. I have a speer manual #10 from 1979. It states that the start charge for 2400 is 13.9 gr. and the max is 15.9 with a magnum primer for the 158 gr. bullet. I figured since the powder was from about that time I would be ok.I started with 14.5 gr. and a winchester mag primer. I fired 2 shots and checked for pressure.The primers were flat and the cases were sticky coming out of the cylinder. I did not have to beat the ejector rod or anything but they required some force coming out. I learned my lesson on this one, only use new published data,,NO MATTER WHAT! Does anyone think the Ruger could have been damaged by this?I have fired it since and have had no problems. Sorry my 1st post is so long winded. Thanks for reading.

Sevens · March 11, 2008, 08:55 PM

First off, I would always refer to the maker of the powder over everyone else. BUT-- better than simply reading their data would be to call, write or e-mail them. Each and every powder maker has folks who specifically work with customers who use their product. Bring your concerns and observations directly to Alliant. Mention the data you have from other sources using THEIR powder and see what they have to say about it. It's not hard to imagine that a gentleman on the phone can be quite a bit more open about what's possible and safe as compared to, say, publishing a guide on it. The guy you speak with won't be a suit-wearing bean counter, he'll likely be a shooting enthusiast and handloader.

Next, it may not be common enough knowledge (it sure should be, though!) that old load data tends to be quite stiff! I've read about data from the 60s and early 70s to produce even nastier results than you've seen from your Speer #10.

In the end, there's a "best way" to approach what you are doing here-- skip the old data you've found-- it's better to start light and build toward heavy if heavy is your goal. And as you build stiffer loads, it'll be easy to see the law of diminishing returns especially if you employ a chronograph. You will see pressure signs rearing their ugly head while you velocity doesn't seem to increase much. That's when you know you've gone too far. Back it off a bit. When you have stiff without multiple pressure signs AND it's accurate, then you've invented your own personal "wheel." The pet load, the holy grail of the load bench.

Each sign of pressure is a warning sign. Add up a number of them and you enter a very dangerous area. As for whether or not you've damaged your Ruger? I'd say it's very unlikely that you've damaged it with two hot rounds. Shoot a few hundred and the answer may be different.

I'm certainly no expert, but I'll bet you come away enlightened after talking to a rep from Alliant. If/when you do, please come back to this thread and share the knowledge!

GARANDSLAM · March 11, 2008, 09:02 PM

Thanks for the reply Sevens. When I get the info I wil definately post it here.

Halwg · March 12, 2008, 06:34 AM

I think a lot also depends on the gun. I load 2400 in .357 magnum and 14.0 grains with a 158 gr. hollowpoint works great in my brother's Ruger, but is much too hot in my Taurus 689. 13.0 gr. with the 158 gr. hollowpoint is max for the Taurus, and I shoot targets with 12.5 grains.

Difference in tolerances of the guns causes the higher pressures. So I always start low and work up approaching the max listed in the manuals. Sometimes I get there, other times I don't. Also, I tend to use the reloading manual from the bullet manufacturer I'm using.

SL1 · March 12, 2008, 11:06 AM

The 357 Mag loads in the Speer #10 Manual are long noted for being really hot. The text says they stay below 46,000 CUP. The more recent SAAMI standard is 35,000 PSI. Other manuals of the Speer #10 vintage seemed to go to about 40,000 CUP. The new Speer manuals use the newer standard.(The measuring systems are different, but you can tell from the resulting max load data that the actual pressures are lower with the new standard.)

I don't think you have hurt your gun. If you look in the chambers that fired the 2 hot cartridges, you might see a bright ring about where the base of the bullet is located, or you might not. If you find a ring in two chambers and nowhere else, then those two cartridges may have been the culprits. (You may actually find those rings in all cyclinders from loads that you did not know were giving pressure peaks.) I shot some of the Speer #10 max loads in a Security Six, got my rings in my cylinder chambers somewhere along the way, and have seen no ill effects for decades and thousands of rounds.

SL1

saber9 · March 12, 2008, 11:42 AM

Like others here have said, I found the loadings in the older Speer manuals to be consistently hotter than other manuals, specifically Lyman and Hornady. Also, the older Speer manuals often called for magnum primers for .357 loads. Generally I don't particularly like magnum primers. I have tried them a couple of times in .357, using Blue Dot and 2400 powders, and could not tell any real difference between them and standard primers. There might be an advantage to them in large capacity cases with large charges of very slow burning powders, but even in .44 magnum I never used them.

I doubt that you have harmed the SP101 with only a couple of (possibly) over-hot loads. FWIW, in short barrel .357 revolvers I have used more Unique than any other and am changing over to AA#5. In longer barrels, I prefer Blue Dot or 2400. With a 4" barrel, I found that 2400 gives a lot of flash, which means to me it is a little slow burning for short barrels.

On just about everything I load, I consult at least 3 reloading manuals including the powder manufacturer's data, and settle on a load that is safe in all of the manuals. I am a very conservative reloader and never load anything to its absolute maximum. I feel that if I need the absolute maximum load, I need to go to a bigger gun. In over 30 years of reloading, I have never gone wrong with this philosophy.

GARANDSLAM · March 12, 2008, 06:54 PM

So, I spoke to Alliant this morning. The gentleman I spoke to was very helpful. He explained the difference I was seeing from source to source was due to different test methods/equiptment. Some manufactures use firearms and pressure equiptment. Some use test barrels, some use the latest and greatest etc.etc. He said the speer 14 load data should be safe to use as long as it is followed exactly. I plan to chrono. the 125 gr. bullet with 10 grains of power pistol with std. sm. pistol primer. Hope it to be my "go to" load. Thanks again for all the replies. Anyone who does not at least listen to someone with more experience than you, especially with something as dangerous as reloading is a fool. I'm sure some of you guys that replied have more experience than I do and your knowledge and time is greatly appreciated.

HankB · March 12, 2008, 08:30 PM

Quote:

I have a speer manual #10 from 1979. It states that the start charge for 2400 is 13.9 gr. and the max is 15.9 with a magnum primer for the 158 gr. bullet.

My Speer #8 manual (1st printing, June 1970) shows a starting load of 14.5 grains of 2400 with the 158 Speer soft point, and 15.5 as max. CCI 550 Magnum primers were used. Test gun was an S&W M-27.

The #8 was my first manual, and there are some loads in there which I have never have worked up to. Rumors were that Speer, based in Idaho, used to develop their loads in winter . . . outdoors . . . and THAT'S why so many of their loads were too hot.

Quote:

The 357 Mag loads in the Speer #10 Manual are long noted for being really hot. The text says they stay below 46,000 CUP. The more recent SAAMI standard is 35,000 PSI.

SAAMI reduced the max pressure for .357 Magnum not because the original loadings were too hot, but because new, lighter-weight guns are too weak.

But even the large, N-frame guns had their limits.

GP100man · March 12, 2008, 09:00 PM

you did right ,stopped & regroupped, looked for help ,even at the source
you & your sp101 have many yrs ahead of you!!!

GP100man##

funon1 · March 19, 2008, 09:37 PM

Try to find the lowest common denominator from several current sources then reduce 10% unless DNR is specified.

March 11, 2008, 08:55 PM	#2
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	First off, I would always refer to the maker of the powder over everyone else. BUT-- better than simply reading their data would be to call, write or e-mail them. Each and every powder maker has folks who specifically work with customers who use their product. Bring your concerns and observations directly to Alliant. Mention the data you have from other sources using THEIR powder and see what they have to say about it. It's not hard to imagine that a gentleman on the phone can be quite a bit more open about what's possible and safe as compared to, say, publishing a guide on it. The guy you speak with won't be a suit-wearing bean counter, he'll likely be a shooting enthusiast and handloader. Next, it may not be common enough knowledge (it sure should be, though!) that old load data tends to be quite stiff! I've read about data from the 60s and early 70s to produce even nastier results than you've seen from your Speer #10. In the end, there's a "best way" to approach what you are doing here-- skip the old data you've found-- it's better to start light and build toward heavy if heavy is your goal. And as you build stiffer loads, it'll be easy to see the law of diminishing returns especially if you employ a chronograph. You will see pressure signs rearing their ugly head while you velocity doesn't seem to increase much. That's when you know you've gone too far. Back it off a bit. When you have stiff without multiple pressure signs AND it's accurate, then you've invented your own personal "wheel." The pet load, the holy grail of the load bench. Each sign of pressure is a warning sign. Add up a number of them and you enter a very dangerous area. As for whether or not you've damaged your Ruger? I'd say it's very unlikely that you've damaged it with two hot rounds. Shoot a few hundred and the answer may be different. I'm certainly no expert, but I'll bet you come away enlightened after talking to a rep from Alliant. If/when you do, please come back to this thread and share the knowledge! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

March 12, 2008, 09:00 PM	#9
GP100man Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2007 Location: Tabor City , NC. Posts: 1,969	varied info you did right ,stopped & regroupped, looked for help ,even at the source you & your sp101 have many yrs ahead of you!!! GP100man##

March 11, 2008, 07:16 PM	#1
GARANDSLAM Member Join Date: October 5, 2007 Posts: 16	.357 magnum reload data discrepency Hello all, new member here with a little problem. I have been reloading for about 10 years now and am very familiar with the basic protocol's.I am familiar with .45acp,9x19,.38spl,30'06,.270,.223,.40s&w and a couple of others. My dilemma is with .357 magnum. I have a speer #14 manual and it states for 125g metal jacket bullet(theirs of course) is 9.5 to 10.5 gr. of power pistol with standard primers. In case it matters I am using winchester primers. On the Alliant website it states a max charge of 9.2 gr. of power pistol for 125g jsp but with a federal 200 primer which is a magnum primer. I have loaded and shot 10 grains of power pistol with standard win. primer and the 125 g bullet. The primer showed no flattening and the cases extracted very easily. By the way the gun is a ruger sp101 with the 2.25" barrell. I was wondering if my load of 10 gr. with the standard primer is safe. I am a little gun shy(no pun intended) as I have been experimenting with trying to find good loads heavy and light for practice. I made up some loads with Hercules 2400 circa late 60's early 70's. The power is fine and very consistent. I started working up loads with standard primers and 158 gr. jhp's. Each load was shot 5 times with the exception of the ones I had problems with.I started with 12.6 gr for chrono. avg. of 950 fps,2nd for 13.5 gr with 995 fps avg. and 3rd for 14.0 gr. with 1005 fps avg.The standard deviation was no more that 10 fps +or-. The 14 gr. being the max charge of 2400 with std. primer per the alliant website. Then I got stupid. I have a speer manual #10 from 1979. It states that the start charge for 2400 is 13.9 gr. and the max is 15.9 with a magnum primer for the 158 gr. bullet. I figured since the powder was from about that time I would be ok.I started with 14.5 gr. and a winchester mag primer. I fired 2 shots and checked for pressure.The primers were flat and the cases were sticky coming out of the cylinder. I did not have to beat the ejector rod or anything but they required some force coming out. I learned my lesson on this one, only use new published data,,NO MATTER WHAT! Does anyone think the Ruger could have been damaged by this?I have fired it since and have had no problems. Sorry my 1st post is so long winded. Thanks for reading.

March 11, 2008, 09:02 PM	#3
GARANDSLAM Member Join Date: October 5, 2007 Posts: 16	Thanks for the reply Sevens. When I get the info I wil definately post it here.

March 12, 2008, 06:34 AM	#4
Halwg Junior Member Join Date: January 2, 2008 Posts: 3	I think a lot also depends on the gun. I load 2400 in .357 magnum and 14.0 grains with a 158 gr. hollowpoint works great in my brother's Ruger, but is much too hot in my Taurus 689. 13.0 gr. with the 158 gr. hollowpoint is max for the Taurus, and I shoot targets with 12.5 grains. Difference in tolerances of the guns causes the higher pressures. So I always start low and work up approaching the max listed in the manuals. Sometimes I get there, other times I don't. Also, I tend to use the reloading manual from the bullet manufacturer I'm using.

March 12, 2008, 11:06 AM	#5
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	The 357 Mag loads in the Speer #10 Manual are long noted for being really hot. The text says they stay below 46,000 CUP. The more recent SAAMI standard is 35,000 PSI. Other manuals of the Speer #10 vintage seemed to go to about 40,000 CUP. The new Speer manuals use the newer standard.(The measuring systems are different, but you can tell from the resulting max load data that the actual pressures are lower with the new standard.) I don't think you have hurt your gun. If you look in the chambers that fired the 2 hot cartridges, you might see a bright ring about where the base of the bullet is located, or you might not. If you find a ring in two chambers and nowhere else, then those two cartridges may have been the culprits. (You may actually find those rings in all cyclinders from loads that you did not know were giving pressure peaks.) I shot some of the Speer #10 max loads in a Security Six, got my rings in my cylinder chambers somewhere along the way, and have seen no ill effects for decades and thousands of rounds. SL1

March 12, 2008, 11:42 AM	#6
saber9 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Location: West Texas Posts: 165	Like others here have said, I found the loadings in the older Speer manuals to be consistently hotter than other manuals, specifically Lyman and Hornady. Also, the older Speer manuals often called for magnum primers for .357 loads. Generally I don't particularly like magnum primers. I have tried them a couple of times in .357, using Blue Dot and 2400 powders, and could not tell any real difference between them and standard primers. There might be an advantage to them in large capacity cases with large charges of very slow burning powders, but even in .44 magnum I never used them. I doubt that you have harmed the SP101 with only a couple of (possibly) over-hot loads. FWIW, in short barrel .357 revolvers I have used more Unique than any other and am changing over to AA#5. In longer barrels, I prefer Blue Dot or 2400. With a 4" barrel, I found that 2400 gives a lot of flash, which means to me it is a little slow burning for short barrels. On just about everything I load, I consult at least 3 reloading manuals including the powder manufacturer's data, and settle on a load that is safe in all of the manuals. I am a very conservative reloader and never load anything to its absolute maximum. I feel that if I need the absolute maximum load, I need to go to a bigger gun. In over 30 years of reloading, I have never gone wrong with this philosophy.

March 12, 2008, 06:54 PM	#7
GARANDSLAM Member Join Date: October 5, 2007 Posts: 16	So, I spoke to Alliant this morning. The gentleman I spoke to was very helpful. He explained the difference I was seeing from source to source was due to different test methods/equiptment. Some manufactures use firearms and pressure equiptment. Some use test barrels, some use the latest and greatest etc.etc. He said the speer 14 load data should be safe to use as long as it is followed exactly. I plan to chrono. the 125 gr. bullet with 10 grains of power pistol with std. sm. pistol primer. Hope it to be my "go to" load. Thanks again for all the replies. Anyone who does not at least listen to someone with more experience than you, especially with something as dangerous as reloading is a fool. I'm sure some of you guys that replied have more experience than I do and your knowledge and time is greatly appreciated.

March 19, 2008, 09:37 PM	#10
funon1 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: WA state Posts: 361	Just like to add Try to find the lowest common denominator from several current sources then reduce 10% unless DNR is specified.