Bedding my Savage accu-stock

[Metal god]

I feel like You are kinda back where you started.

Boy is that an under statement and thats on me for sure .

OK I'll give you guys a blow by blow of my bedding . This was all done before I ever shot the rifle with the bedding in . I used the putty stuff first and it was to thick for my receiver to pinch it down all the way or I did not apply enough torque to the screws . I only torqued it to 40lbs when doing the bedding . Savage said 40lbs on each screw so thats what I did . In hindsight probably not what I should have done .

The action was sitting off the bottom block a little bit and I could tell the action was sitting up higher then before . Not much but some . I was thinking that may be preventing the side ribs from clamping the action the way it was intended . What I did to fix that was sand down the bedding material about a 1/16" and by doing so exposed the bottom spine of the aluminum . I then used a thiner steel reinforced epoxy and bed the action again . By using the thinner compound . When I torqued down the action it squeezed all the new bedding material away from the spine and the final result is what you see in the picture . The area I cleaned up was at the bottom off where the recoil lug sat . In the picture where the recoil lug pushes up against the bedding . That area looks curved but it was not . It was very square to the bedding block .

If you look at the second pic in post #9 You can see the two defferent colors of the epoxy back bedding . The second bedding material is a little darker .

I think I shouldn't have popped the bedding back out -duh I'm thinking of doing it again but this time I will torque it past the 40lbs I did last time . That may push the putty out of the way better and I won't need to bed it a second time .

[4runnerman]

You are tightening the very front screw first?. back screw last?. just asking

[Metal god]

I have done it both ways but when I see how out of kilter the action is when I do that . I don't see how the recoil lug can stay square to the block . That's why I was saying I'd like to see inside the stock/action to see how it settles in to place . when you tighten the screws It feels very different then when you tighten a traditional stock . You can see and feel the action sink into the stock with each turn of the screws . If you tighten the front screw down to lets say 40lbs then the back to 30lbs . The front is no longer at 40lbs and the screw will turn a little before breaking at 40lbs again . That was all part of what I was trying to find out about with Savage but Debra Roberts with CS was not very helpfull .

I think I have some model clay . I'll do a test and see if any clay sqeezes in between the recoil lug and bedding block when I torque the front screw first . If it does then there would be a gap between the recoil lug and bedding block when fully torqued . That would not be good . If I have some clay I'll update in a few

[tangolima]

One interesting note . When torquing the screws down I can feel the action teeter totter back and forth as it wedged it self in the ribs of the bedding system . More at first then less and less as the action got tighter .

The front of the receive is floating for sure then. It is certainly unconventional. To be frank I myself simply can't handle out-of-box thinking of this kind. I believe the receiver should be in as tight of contact with the stock as physics allows, short of compressing the wood, stressing the metal, or breaking anything.

-TL

[4runnerman]

metel-- is this the 4 4 spacing on the screws?. i have 2 stocks( not accustock) i would be more than happy to give one to you. Just pay shipping and give that a try

[Metal god]

4runnerman Thanks I'll keep that in mind but not just yet .

I just finished the model putty test and to my surprise . The recoil lug stayed snugged up and tight against the bedding block .I torqued it to 55lbs and it squeezed all the clay from the spine and pretty much looked like the pics of the bedding I did before . I took some pics but the computer I use for uploading pics is acting up and may have a virus . so your just going to have to take my word for it

But the action would be floating if I only had it torqued to 40lbs like Savage says

[4runnerman]

Ok. Let me know If you want one. Would be a interesting test for sure

[semi_problomatic]

I've been watching this, curious as to see how you were thinking.

Why are you bedding the accustock? What I mean is, your origional complaint was the action screws would not stay torqued, right? What would bedding do to help this?

Nothing. By bedding it you are defeating the whole purpose of the accustock. You're inducing stress points along the action. Here's why: those rails on the side are supposed to flex out when you tighten down the screws. This makes the action aligned with the stock. When you bed the rifle, you're putting it at 2 points and torquing it down, causing the bedding block to remain flexed open at those 2 points (not along the whole block) and not allowing it to properly cradle the action.

This is not a traditional block that the action rest on top of. Like you said, you can feel it sinking into the block as you torque it down. This pressure is designed into the bedding block. This means the whole bottom is not supposed to touch (round action, square bottom rail) if you had a larger contact surface you wouldn't have the flex holding the action. Which wouldn't matter with a full bedding job, I suppose.

If you try to torque down the front screw first, you'll put the rear action screw in a bind. If you torque the front action screw down first you'll have too much pressure for the rear to adjust properly. Both ways can allow the bolts to loosen as you shoot and the action settles. The best way I've found is to start the rear, snug up the front just hand tight, then torque rear and front bolts. When done like that the front doesn't loosen at all.

I'm going to guess the reason the bedding popped out so easily is because the bedding block is made to flex outwards, and as you torqued and shot the rifle it was still flexing underneath the bedding. Much like popping ice cubes out of a tray.

If you're going to bed it, might want to try bedding the whole channel behind the lug. This will negate the accustock completely, so you could do it in any stock that would fit the action. The accustock is made to give a glass bedded type rigidness without the cost and skill to do a proper bedding. You can cnc out blocks of aluminium faster and with much better consistancy then people could properly bed and clean out action areas.

[Metal god]

Semi : all valid points and I believe I've been there at all different points and is why I popped the bedding out . Knowing that bedding in not what this system was intended to have is why I was willing to start over .

The reason I thought bedding the stock would help with the screws was simple . I knew and believe at 40lbs of torque the action would move around a bit when fired . I think thats what is helping the screws to work loose . My thought is/was stop the action from moving around and the screws don't come loose . I then would be able to check and or re torque the action each time I go shooting . That would not be possible If I was using locktite . The other thing is knowing the action is likely floating is still hard to except as a reliable system .

As for in what order to tighten the screws . You are the first person to ever say start with the back ones . Everybody I've talked with has said to start with the front . I did at one point think like you are thinking or at least close to it . I tried torquing them equally in 5 and 10lb increments but that did not seem to help but never did back screw first .

I think my real problem is I never knew what the torque was when the rifle was shooting it's best . That was between shots 1 Thru 400 . I'm now over 1,400 shots fired through the gun and that in it self has it's own issue I may need to over come . I have not discounted the fact I've eroded the throat enough that the 168gr GMM just does not shoot as good as they once did . I remember it feeling like I was pushing the bullet into the lands when chambering that round . It does not feel like that any more . I also have not discounted the fact I've filled my head with so much garbage I can't see the forest through the trees .

I will contact Savage again and make sure they want the action floating with the sides doing all the support as well as if the front or back screw should be torqued down first .

[semi_problomatic]

The action should not move when fired. I took mine apart and put it back together just to check again. There shouldn't be any movement in the rifle if it's torqued right. If you're not tightening the bolts correctly they could be binding so you a torqued reading but working loose as the rifle shoots and settles. What is your COL? Do you measure to the lands or use book COL? You might have worn a little of the throat and just need to seat the rounds further out. Easy enough to check with a borescope.

Do you keep a shot log book? Number of rounds, average group size, temp, humidity, wind speed and direction, range, relevant load and rifle data? I have a little graph paper notepad I try to track any changes I make when I shoot. Helps out comparing changes in equipment, loads, weather effects. I use the graph paper so I can plot groups and track them later.

Might want to step back and start over. See what your col needs to be, work up a best load. Group that load a few times. Keeping your torque at 40# then change 1 thing at a time. Rear screw torque. Front screw torque. Bedding (or maybe not) bullets, powder, primers, brass. Sort your brass and bullets by weight. Uniform flash holes and primer pockets. Nit-pick and be anal about it.

[Metal god]

Short answer , yes I keep detailed notes of just about everything you mentioned . Not humidity and rarely wind speed except when I can feel it . All load work up has been at 100yds . IMO light wind is not going to change a 1/2 moa load to a 1.5 moa load or vise versa at 100yds . Thats what I'm getting or was getting double groups from range trip to range trip . I keep all my targets , keep track of ammo temp , barrel temp and ambient temp before each string . I have a OAL gage and a micrometer bullet seater .I do not throw my charges . I measure each load with a beam scale . My loads are check weighted every ten charges . I do the flash holes , trim every time etc etc etc . Although I'm semi new to reloading I work my butt off when reloading . I have no problem believing my loads are consistent .

I'm off the lands any where from 10 to 20 thou depending on the bullet I don't even measure OAL anymore My notes only have my comparator measurement and what that is on my seating die .

My detailed notes are what is confusing . I will load the exact same load from my Notes and shoot in just about the same conditions ( conditions are never the exact same ) but at 100yds close enough and the results are light years apart . I'm in San Diego the conditions don't change much here .

Yes I've considered the shooter being the problem and a couple times I'm sure I was , but noted that and moved on . It does not happen when I shoot my other rifles or when I shoot other guys rifles . Heck Half the time I can get my loads to shoot better in other guys rifles then they do in the rifle I'm having issues with . I have one load that works great in every rifle I shot it through that total now is 9 different rifles including my two 308s . All shoot sub moa with the load . My Savage did when I first worked it up but now I can barely get moa out of it .

I'm confident the issue is with the rifle in some way . I just need to start a new and go slow just like you say . I just hope I don't shoot the barrel out before I resolve the issue

[4runnerman]

Metal- At 1400 rounds you are no where close to shooting the barrel out yet. In a 308 you might be maybe 1/2 way if even that. Here is a crazy thought. I have 9 Savages now,all shoot sub MOA- 6 of them ( no accustock though) 35 rear and 30 front for the screws. Maybe a starting point?. I looked at my other post to you and saw I had it backwards. Rear screw first and most time 5 inch lbs tighter than front.
Also- The Blue loctite is the way to go. when and if you need to take screws out,They break loose very easy, but will not loosen on there own. Just make sure it is Blue loctite not Red. The loctite is used only after you have found your settings.

[semi_problomatic]

I'm just spitballing any ideas I got metal. I don't think it's the stock simply because it was good but now isn't. Somthing generally has to change for that to happen.

Have you swapped scopes? Checked the crown of your muzzle? Cleaned your barrel?

Do you have any pictures of a "good" shot group vs a "bad" one?

[Metal god]

I'll try to get some pics up soon .

I sure hope I get a lot more then 1400 more rounds . I've put 1100 through it in the last 2 months alone . At this rate the barrel will be trashed by Feb.

I have not looked at the crown . The rifle has a muzzle brake and I'll need to get a crush washer before taking it off .

I did clean the bore very well ,down to bare metal very early in load development . I was having pressure issues at first do to how deep I had to seat the bullets to keep them off the lands . Turned out they were not getting stuck in the lands . My thraot was fouled to the extreme . after cleaning I gained 50 thousandths of OAL I could work with I had went 400rds with out cleaning the bore . I've been doing a light cleaning after each range trip and always start with 4 or 5 fouling shots I shoot around 100 rounds each trip some times much more . I have not notice accuracy getting better later in the day . The other day I shot GMM at round counts of 16 , 32 , 40 and in the 60s they all shot the same

hmm never thought of the scope . Most likely because when I noticed the double groupings I found that my stock was loose so I went with that as the issue . Sure would suck if it's been my scope the whole time .

[semi_problomatic]

I'd deffinately pull that muzzle brake and check the crown too. Maybe just shine a flashlight down there and check it out for now... I have a muzzle brake on my AR and after 700 rounds I took it off to try out another adapter and I had severe carbon build up. Could be that the carbon build-up is uneven or has chipped off on one side or the other.

[Metal god]

UPDATE - FWIW

Still waiting on Savage to get back with me . I asked if the action is indeed supposed to be floating in the bedding system . I explained that I believe only the front is floating when torqued to 40lbs as they recommend .

I did take the muzzle brake off . The crown looks good to me but with out huge cracks or nicks , I don't think I could really tell if there was a problem . It does not appear to have a bunch of carbon build up But I did not pick at it to see if any thing would come off . I'm afraid to mess with the crown . Right now the rifle is out of the stock and I put a thread protector on the muzzle . Until Savage gets back with me there's not much to do .

[semi_problomatic]

Throw up some pics?

[Metal god]

Sorry guys I have a virus on my computer . Its the type that sends what I'm doing on my keyboard to the hacker . If I log into any site that needs a password , that gives the hacker the pass word . They got my credit card info that way .

Anyways the only way I know how to load pics is through a website I would need to log into so no pics for now and I have a bunch . I'm having the computer looked at tomorrow . Maybe tomorrow night I can have some up .

[Metal god]

UPDATE :

Just got off the phone with Savage . They told me the 40# is accurate and the action is floating-ish . Meaning the recoil lug and sides of the receiver are the only things that should be making contact with the bedding system/stock . The action is not intended to bottom out on the spine/bottom of the bedding system . OK if they say so

Here's my plan and it should have been the plan from the get go . I will do new load work ups for the new torque . Making sure the action screws are always at the proper torque per Savage . This should take less time and shots then before because I already know What loads are safe to shoot in the rifle . No need to start at the lowest charge anymore .

I'm not going to claim I know anything at this point but I believe 38.5gr loads work well . They don't have the velocity's I want so I'll start there and see if I can find another good node at a higher charge . I did have some good results at times with 40.5gr of IMR-4895 and something close to that with 4064 . Based on that I'm hoping I'll find that second node at a higher velocity .

This testing and load development will take a few trips to the range . First to develop then to confirm . I'm going to try to keep it as controlled as possible so any advice on what you guys do to be sure your not introducing different things that will change performance would help . I would assume the obvious thing would be to only work on one load at a time . same case , same powder , same bullet and all other things that should be the same . Trim length , primer , consistent FL sizing until I nail that load

What else do you guys have for me ? Going on Friday to start testing but don't plan on posting results till completed after second or third range trip .

I'm hoping I just fixed the last thing that may have given me some inconsistency's with my cartridges . I had been sizing my brass a bit short from the shoulder to head and have corrected that . They were constantly short but still short buy 8 to 10 thousandths . Please don't tell me that was my problem the whole time I say no because of the GMM having the same inconsistency's as my loads , at least thats what I'm telling my self

One other thing I have the muzzle brake off right now and a thread protector over the threads . Any thoughts on if I should put it back on for the tests ?

[Metal god]

Ok been weighing the 175gr smk . I've done 35 of them and the ES is .5gr with most with in .3gr . Now I would think .5 gr is nothing to worry about when it comes to this testing .

What say you ?

[4runnerman]

not to worry. .5 is nothing when your dealing with 175 gn. How about your brass weight?.

[Metal god]

I weighed the brass when I first sorted it and it was all with in a few grains . I trim every time so I just assumed they still weigh the same . I'll go check and get back with you .

Just weighed 60 cases that I just finished prepping . ES was 6gr with almost all with in 3gr . Funny part about that is they weigh 20gr less then when I started using them . They were all in the 175gr range and now in the 155gr range This was there 4th FL sizing and trim maybe 3rd sizing and 4th firing .

The funny part is the "DUH" moment I had when I first started weighing them just now . Of coarse they weigh less . I've cut material off them at least 3 times now . not sure what I was thinking .

[4runnerman]

ES was 6?. so you had some that were off 8 or 9 or so?. That's a lot. I keep my 6MMBR to with in 2 gns, but like you I have not checked them in 5 or 6 loads now. Makes me wonder now. Not sure where you want to go with your accuracy at this point,but I have been staying on top of all your post's and it seem's like you are looking for ultimate accuracy ( good ).

All I can say Metal is- You had one load that was shooting very well in your rifle way back. Take that load and go with it. POI means nothing in the first stage. Look for group size. I believe you had that. Now not to beat a dead horse,but load up 30 or so rounds. Go to range and play with the action screws. Start at what appears to be almost loose. Tighten rear 5 inch lbs and front 5 at a time ( rear 5 higher than front). Keep going in 5 lb increments doing 4 or 5 shot groups. The heck with what Savage tells you. I have 9 and none are set to what Savage say's. It will come together for you, I know it will. When you get there,Just a dab of blue loctite and your good to go. Blue breaks loose real easy but will not come loose by itself. Keep your cheek weld the same,the amount of pull against your shoulder the same and squeeze slow. It's a Savage- It will come together for you.

My Savage 308 seem's to really like 42.3 gns of RL-15 and Serria 175's. I run with the plain jane 2.80 COL. Right in that 2650 FPS range.
I am such a Die Hard Savage fan that it bugs me that it is not shooting one hole for you

[Metal god]

ES was 6?. so you had some that were off 8 or 9 or so?.

Sorry I thought ES means extreme spread and I thought that means the lightest to the heaviest . From the lightest to the heaviest was a 6gr spread and my ave was about 3-ish . I was thinking thats pretty darn good considering they all lost around 20gr and yet they're all still with in a few gr .

Yes I've had some crazy good loads .3 , .4 and a bunch a .5 and .6 moa loads . Problem is I rarely could duplicate them on paper . That always made me think they were not really good loads . The other thing was If I could get one load to shoot well the other "good" ones would shoot like crap . I guess I've been chasing that torque / what ever that had my rifle shooting everything great . I guess your right I need to suck it up and just pick one and go for it .

You know , when I think about it . My rifle was shooting its best when I could shoot 168gr GMM into the same hole . There was a point that I could shoot sub moa with GMM easy . It took very little effort to do so .

What I should do is go get 60 rounds of that and torque my action using GMM and in theory that should get my rifle shooting great again .

[semi_problomatic]

4runner, I'm like you; it just bugs me about the savage.

Metal, do you chrono your loads? A chrono can help tell the difference between an accurate group and a lucky group.