Practical Vs. Tactical

[JBJ16]

For realistic training and scenarios, what school of shooting do you think will best serve you in the real world outside of the range?
1.IPSC
2.IDPA
3. Simmunition "force-on-force" Training

ETA: Posters are assumed to be moderate to good in basic gunhandling, drawing and shooting accurately.

[YoungKiwi]

First two are games.

[685cmj]

First two are games.

Oh, oh...I don't think you should have said that!

[Slugthrower]

IDPA and IPSC would be good training too, if the targets were automated and had a paint ball gun mounted to a camera. If the competitors had incoming shots it would change the whole dynamic of the game. I bet it would take much longer to take out those targets and many of the shooters would be "taken out" of the game much faster as well.

[str8shtr]

I agree with the above, the first two are games.

However if Simunition FOF training is not properly conducted it can quickly turn into a game.

The best thing about Simunition FOF training is that it instantly lets you know if your tactics and shooting skills suck or not.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Ditto. Never been 'killed' in IDPA. I have been truly 'killed' in FOF. Each death was a lesson and certainly tempered my views about intervening as Captain Hero in the dreaded Stop and Rob scenario.

Also, the sims, paint balls and even airsoft hurt enough to make the point that you were shot.

However, I do shoot IDPA as it is trigger time and fun! I have to admit I shoot slower than most but strive for a reasonable speed/accuracy trade off.

[Tim Burke]

The games are not the place for "realistic training or scenarios." They have value, but not for the stated goals. Dynamic gunhandling, marksmanship, speed, and the ability to shoot while thinking can all be enhanced by both IDPA & IPSC.
Poorly done FoF turns into paintball.

[BikerRN]

FOF with "realistic" role players can be very educational.

I know it has opened my eyes to a lot.

Biker

[threegun]

From the folks that I have talked to who have force on force experience most feel that its greatest attribute was bring them back to reality in terms of surviving a gunfight. What I mean is that being fake killed more often than not humbled them. They now seek to avoid a conflict even harder than before.

[Deaf Smith]

It all helps.

Training for IPSC gives you gun handling skills.

Training for IDPA gives more gun handling skills and SOME tactical skills.

FOF shows just where you are as for how you have internalized any training you have taken. Just as a good full contact match gives you some idea what you could do on the street against someone who really does want to knock the stuffings out of you.

IPSC and IDPA itself is a match. You train for the match using techniques to help you win that match. If you train well, and keep an eye on how realistic the techniques are, then the training will be a real asset. Jim Cirillo, Bill Jordan, Jelly Bryce,Charlie Askins, etc... all competed in matches and most of them used 'game guns' and 'game' methods.

[Groundhog]

I've shot IDPA now for only about half a year. It was clear from the start that it wouldn't give me much help other than being more knowledgeable and safe when handling my firearm. That said, it has done just that.

"Excuse me Mr. Robber, I'm not sure I understand the course of fire..."

Don't get me wrong, I love it, but it's not exactly training.

[threegun]

IDPA and IPSC help most of us deal with higher pressure levels. We are forced to make hits on multiple targets under stress that training doesn't duplicate. They also force us to think under higher stress. Gun handling and getting lead on target fast etc. are good things. I love competition.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Match stress is mild compared to a higher level well done FOF course. No one ever charged me with a ball bat in IDPA, nor did a giant fellow try to stop me from leaving. Nor did I ever leave the IDPA field with a somewhat bloody t-shirt from some simulated gun fire.

[David Armstrong]

IDPA and IPSC help most of us deal with higher pressure levels.

I'm not aware of anyone ever providing any evidence to support that idea, at least as it relates to actual encounters. Handling pressure from a game does not automatically equal handling pressure in reality.

[threegun]

David,

I'm not aware of anyone ever providing any evidence to support that idea, at least as it relates to actual encounters. Handling pressure from a game does not automatically equal handling pressure in reality.

Sure as heck can't hurt. Really though nothing is going to be a 100 percent guarantee of handling gunfight pressure.........except gunfight pressure. Even FOF so coveted by many isn't a guarantee of handling GF pressures. Going into a training that will not lead to my death will never rise to gunfight pressure levels. Still folks who wish to do everything possible to prepare for the real thing use FOF, competition, tactical training, etc.

I can take what folks with gunfight expierience have said about competition and hope that it applies to me if the time ever comes. One thing is for sure if I take crapola in a gunfight it won't be due to competition or FOF but despite them. Competing isn't going to make you worst off than if you had not competed.

[kjdoski]

I've shot a little IPSC, quite a bit of IDPA, and lots of FOF. Of the three, I would say that, from the point of view of training to survive a gunfight, FOF provides the best lessons.

This presupposes that the FOF is conducted realistically, by competent trainers with proper equipment. As stated above, improperly executed FOF is nothing more than fancy paintball.

Having said that, I've seen EXTREMELY unrealistic IDPA stages, and the whole "tactical reload" fixation is nothing but horse hockey, IMHO...

Regards,

Kevin

[Lurper]

I'm not aware of anyone ever providing any evidence to support that idea, at least as it relates to actual encounters. Handling pressure from a game does not automatically equal handling pressure in reality.

Here we go again rehashing the same old stuff.
Ayoob, Cirillo, Jordan, Hatchcock and several other people have in fact stated that competition was one of the top reasons they attributed to their ability to operate cooly under pressure.
Pressure is pressure. It doesn't matter what the environment because the pressure comes from within, not without. Teach you mind to operate under pressure and it will. Competition is one of the best ways to achieve that. In the confrontations I have been in, I performed exactly the way I trained. That's because the actions I needed to perform were ingrained to the point that they did not require conscious thought.

For those who haven't figured it out, the most important aspect of competition and combat is the mental aspect. But, so many in the industry don't acknowledge that.

Competion builds the mechanics and mental skills to enhance survival. Not that FOF doesn't, but most people don't have the opportunity to take part in FOF on a regular basis. I suppose that if you practiced FOF as much as some compete, you would derive the same benefits. However, as has been mentioned, you run the risk of FOF becoming like paintball which diminshes the training value. IMO, most of what is practiced in IDPA is counter productive as well.

I know this will just stir the pot, but I will go so far as to say that in most cases tactics for civilians are unecessary, and the concept of cover etc. as defined by IDPA rules is unrealistic. In my experience and that of several of my friends who have been involved in shootings, the ability to hit the target quickly was the determining factor.

Given the choices, I would still say that IPSC would provide you with the best skills to ensure your survival in a confrontation as a civilian.

[Denny Hansen]

Personally, I have felt "stress" from going to a match exactly one time; my first match because I didn't know what to expect. And in truth, the feeling would probably be described better as "butterflies".

I've experienced stress, but never from a shootin' game. YMMV

Denny

[Tim Burke]

Before a match, I'm very slightly on edge. Usually after the first stage even that has resolved. Maybe I'd be more jittery if I thought I might win.
Before FoF exercises I'm nervous; my mouth is dry, my heart rate is fast, and I'm wishing I could leave.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's the secret - know you aren't going to win the match and be mellow. Just think about lunch later.

I'll tell you, my first NTI had me all a twitter. I forgot to breathe and was told I was turning blue.

[kcshooter]

It will all help in a real life encounter. It will allow your mind to be able to focus on the surroundings and conflict at hand, while your gun control -draw, grip, safety release, aiming, and firing- will all be more or less instictive at that point. You will be able to remain clear in your mind and control the panic and fear that will ultimately confront you when having someone put your life in danger.
If you aren't feeling stress and pressure in your matches, take it more seriously, I always feel pressure. Even on a course I've run a dozen times, I still let the pressure build up on me because, as Lurper said, pressure is pressure.
I have never had to fire in SD but I have drawn and was ready to fire,and was really figuring at that point I would have no choice but to fire to defend myself. The situation quickly changed, but had I been in a panic and not calm and collected, I may have shot without needing to which could have ended badly for both of us. I still would have been legally justified, but feel much better knowing I didn't take a life that I didn't have to. I know I could have and would have shot if I needed to, but taking range time and the "games" seriously allowed me to stay in control of myself, and my gun.
Just my buck 'o two.

[threegun]

Denny, You are lucky. I get stressed every match on IPSC or Threegun (the matches I shoot most). The stress for me has either diminished a tad or my ability to deal with it has increased because I am better now than I was at first. I still get "butterflies" and have to visit the head before the match. My ability to move is always slightly affected. I also feel slow. I've been told that all are signs of stress.

I used to get the same feeling while playing league softball. Also while sparring in Karate especially while waiting my turn.

Lurper, Of the folks I know with gunfight expierience none used any other tactic than hit the target ASAP. Of the shootings that I have been told about by the survivor/victim I cannot remember tactics being employed just hit the target fast or being hit fast. Most I do remember happened very quickly. None were drawn out events.

While doing my range officer duty at Dade City Rod and Gun Club I was talking to a man who had just been home invaded. This guy ran to his bedroom for his pistol with 3 armed guys following. He got his sa hunting revolver and was able to partially close the bedroom door when he and the bad guys began struggling for the door. The badguy fired several shots thru the door one of which hit this guy on the upper forearm. The guy fired 2 shots back through the door and the badguys fled. No tactics used once again. The goodguy hit nothing.

[str8shtr]

my mouth is dry, my heart rate is fast, and I'm wishing I could leave.

It's amazing how much FOF training and being involved in a gunfight compare. I have never felt like that shooting IDPA.

[gfmun]

IDPA and IPSC are both games. As long as you have rules and keep score they are games. Neither are tactical training. What they bring are some competition, some stress, gun handling skills and fast mag changes. All of these would be valuable in time of need. I would really like to take some FOF training, take it to the next level. Please do not mistake IDPA or IPSC as training.

Thanks, George

[Deaf Smith]

but gufmun,

Isn't 'some stress, gun handling skills and fast mag changes' training?
Isn't practicing to aquire the ability to shoot fast, shoot on the move, shoot from many varied positions training? Obtaining the ability to shoot from concealment, shoot weak handed, shoot from behind cover training? All that is what you practice for to be in an IDPA match. Sure looks like training to me.