military shotguns ? - Page 2

Jeff White · May 11, 2002, 09:55 AM

George,

I think that most of the engagement ranges in the Battle of the Black Sea were a bit too long for effective use of buckshot. Erick has a good point on bulk and weight of the ammunition too.

Shotguns were used by TF Ranger in the same role as we've discussed earlier in this thread, as special purpose weapons.

Shotguns are being used in this role in Afghanistn right now. A few weeks ago there was a photo in Army Times of some 10th Mountain Division soldiers clearing a cave complex (this was the same operation that found the GPS that was erroniously tied to the Mogadishu battle, because it had G Gordon etched on it, how's that for tieing things together?

) While no shotguns were visible a coupls soldiers had panels on the front of their Intercepter body armor that obviously were holding 12 gage shells. One pic did have what could have been an M4 with a KAC Masterkey shotgun attached to the RAS, but the picture was too grainy to tell for sure.

Jeff

**Mike Irwin** · May 11, 2002, 06:20 PM

Jeff,

Yes, you're more trapped on an upper level, but you're also more secure.

There are few homes with a truly secure lower floor room in which someone on the outside either can't come through a window, or fire through a window, relatively easily, or come from multiple directions.

If I hole up in my bedroom, I control the entire upper floor. Entry through the windows is a lot less certain, and the only door is a bottleneck through which anyone would have to come to get to me.

If worse comes to worse, I can ensure that the hallway is clear, retreat to one of the backbedrooms, and go out the window to the back.

Anyway, that's my take on it.

George Hill · May 11, 2002, 09:07 PM

Mike, uh... hate to tell you this, but one of the units I was in practiced an explosive breach between floors to avoid staircases.

If they really want you, they can get you. Never mind things like CS Gas.

Al Thompson · May 12, 2002, 06:26 AM

Having had the ability to actually try using a SG in exercises, my take on them for militay use is that they are very specialized. I would not want one as a primary weapon due to the limited range and slow reloads. In the early '80s muzzle flash was terrible - may be corrected these days.

TF Ranger did have SGs. In the book, there is at least one photo with a Ranger with both a rifle and 870.

Mike, frankly George and myself (I think) have the same take on fixed positions. Unless there is a sound reason, remaining mobile is always a better idea. If the gangbangers hit the front, I'm out the back. Shame on me for being a target in the first place.

Other than urban combat (where you may want to make your home a bunker), I.E., burglers, staying where ever you are and hunkering down is probably the best idea. If that's the second floor or basement, no difference. Figure out your choke polints and cover them. Got commo? Get the cops involved asap.

Giz

Cosmoline · May 12, 2002, 11:37 AM

Keep in mind that the shotgun was for a long time *not* considered a proper military weapon by most of the world. When the US first utilized the trench gun in WWI, for example, the Germans wrote an official letter of protest that such a "civilian" weapon would be allowed onto the battlefield. The concern as as much for its maiming ability as for its association with duck hunting. Outside the US, most of the world associates shotguns with guarding prisoners and other non-combat activities.

**Mike Irwin** · May 12, 2002, 02:11 PM

"If they really want you, they can get you."

I think without realizing it you really just cut to the chase, George.

If they really want you, you're likely going to lose no matter what you're carrying, rifle, handgun, or shotgun.

Kevan · May 12, 2002, 02:26 PM

Uh, not to rain on anyone's parade, but who is "they"? I don't think any home invasion robbers will be using explosive breaches between floors (that would attract cops like livestock attracts horseflies; pardon the analogy.) They wouldn't use CS gas as them having to wear protective masks and deploy the CS is a helluva lot of trouble of trouble to go through for a little crank money.

Now, if we're talking about the "G", the government, that's a different story. In such a case as the G getting tyrannical, I'd have long disappeared into the wilderness and my weapon of choice would be a crossbow and its primary function would be making meat. Firearms would be kept for self-defense against two-legged animals but otherwise kept quiet to avoid attracting attention. The Warsaw Ghetto shows that you can hold out against a government in an urban settng for some time but, sooner of later, they'll make hash out of you. Compare the Warsaw Ghetto to how long the Apaches held out against better armed, numerically and logistically superior forces. Not only of the U.S., but first the Spanish and then Mexico and then the U.S.

George Hill · May 12, 2002, 05:23 PM

Giz and I agree. Always remain moble. Each position overwatches the last so you can fall back under covering fire.

Always have a way out.

CMichael · May 15, 2002, 01:12 PM

I think that a shotgun has much better use for police in urban areas compared to a rifle.

If a police officer misses with a rifle he can hit someone six blocks away. This isn't as likely with a shotgun.

The longer range of a rifle makes it more prohibitive to use than a shotgun.

Michael

Benjamin · May 15, 2002, 10:24 PM

Quote:

If a police officer misses with a rifle he can hit someone six blocks away. This isn't as likely with a shotgun.

If someone misses with a rifle, they have one projectile to account for. And yes, this may, indeed, be quite a ways away.

If someone misses with a shotgun, they have either

a. 8-22 projectiles to account for.
b. one really big slug whose penetration can rival that of 7.62 ball

Just my humble observations.

CMichael · May 16, 2002, 01:32 PM

With a shotgun at least the projectiles only go a short distance. With a rifle a bullet can hit a long distance away. I don't think this is a good idea for an urban area.

You are right that using a slug in a shotgun would be similar to using a rifle. That is why I don't think a slug would be a good idea either

Michael.

May 11, 2002, 06:20 PM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Jeff, Yes, you're more trapped on an upper level, but you're also more secure. There are few homes with a truly secure lower floor room in which someone on the outside either can't come through a window, or fire through a window, relatively easily, or come from multiple directions. If I hole up in my bedroom, I control the entire upper floor. Entry through the windows is a lot less certain, and the only door is a bottleneck through which anyone would have to come to get to me. If worse comes to worse, I can ensure that the hallway is clear, retreat to one of the backbedrooms, and go out the window to the back. Anyway, that's my take on it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 11, 2002, 09:07 PM	#28
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Mike, uh... hate to tell you this, but one of the units I was in practiced an explosive breach between floors to avoid staircases. If they really want you, they can get you. Never mind things like CS Gas. __________________ MAD OGRE

May 12, 2002, 06:26 AM	#29
Al Thompson Staff Alumnus Join Date: May 2, 1999 Location: South Carolina Posts: 3,611	Having had the ability to actually try using a SG in exercises, my take on them for militay use is that they are very specialized. I would not want one as a primary weapon due to the limited range and slow reloads. In the early '80s muzzle flash was terrible - may be corrected these days. TF Ranger did have SGs. In the book, there is at least one photo with a Ranger with both a rifle and 870. Mike, frankly George and myself (I think) have the same take on fixed positions. Unless there is a sound reason, remaining mobile is always a better idea. If the gangbangers hit the front, I'm out the back. Shame on me for being a target in the first place. Other than urban combat (where you may want to make your home a bunker), I.E., burglers, staying where ever you are and hunkering down is probably the best idea. If that's the second floor or basement, no difference. Figure out your choke polints and cover them. Got commo? Get the cops involved asap. Giz __________________ http://www.scfirearms.org/

May 12, 2002, 02:11 PM	#31
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	"If they really want you, they can get you." I think without realizing it you really just cut to the chase, George. If they really want you, you're likely going to lose no matter what you're carrying, rifle, handgun, or shotgun. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 12, 2002, 02:26 PM	#32
Kevan Member Join Date: February 7, 2002 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Posts: 89	Uh, not to rain on anyone's parade, but who is "they"? I don't think any home invasion robbers will be using explosive breaches between floors (that would attract cops like livestock attracts horseflies; pardon the analogy.) They wouldn't use CS gas as them having to wear protective masks and deploy the CS is a helluva lot of trouble of trouble to go through for a little crank money. Now, if we're talking about the "G", the government, that's a different story. In such a case as the G getting tyrannical, I'd have long disappeared into the wilderness and my weapon of choice would be a crossbow and its primary function would be making meat. Firearms would be kept for self-defense against two-legged animals but otherwise kept quiet to avoid attracting attention. The Warsaw Ghetto shows that you can hold out against a government in an urban settng for some time but, sooner of later, they'll make hash out of you. Compare the Warsaw Ghetto to how long the Apaches held out against better armed, numerically and logistically superior forces. Not only of the U.S., but first the Spanish and then Mexico and then the U.S. __________________ William C. Quantrill Fan Club

May 11, 2002, 09:55 AM	#26
Jeff White Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Kinmundy, IL, USA Posts: 1,397	George, I think that most of the engagement ranges in the Battle of the Black Sea were a bit too long for effective use of buckshot. Erick has a good point on bulk and weight of the ammunition too. Shotguns were used by TF Ranger in the same role as we've discussed earlier in this thread, as special purpose weapons. Shotguns are being used in this role in Afghanistn right now. A few weeks ago there was a photo in Army Times of some 10th Mountain Division soldiers clearing a cave complex (this was the same operation that found the GPS that was erroniously tied to the Mogadishu battle, because it had G Gordon etched on it, how's that for tieing things together? ) While no shotguns were visible a coupls soldiers had panels on the front of their Intercepter body armor that obviously were holding 12 gage shells. One pic did have what could have been an M4 with a KAC Masterkey shotgun attached to the RAS, but the picture was too grainy to tell for sure. Jeff

May 12, 2002, 11:37 AM	#30
Cosmoline Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2000 Posts: 1,080	Keep in mind that the shotgun was for a long time not considered a proper military weapon by most of the world. When the US first utilized the trench gun in WWI, for example, the Germans wrote an official letter of protest that such a "civilian" weapon would be allowed onto the battlefield. The concern as as much for its maiming ability as for its association with duck hunting. Outside the US, most of the world associates shotguns with guarding prisoners and other non-combat activities.

May 12, 2002, 05:23 PM	#33
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Giz and I agree. Always remain moble. Each position overwatches the last so you can fall back under covering fire. Always have a way out. __________________ MAD OGRE

May 15, 2002, 01:12 PM	#34
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	I think that a shotgun has much better use for police in urban areas compared to a rifle. If a police officer misses with a rifle he can hit someone six blocks away. This isn't as likely with a shotgun. The longer range of a rifle makes it more prohibitive to use than a shotgun. Michael

May 16, 2002, 01:32 PM	#36
CMichael Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2001 Location: MI Posts: 1,516	With a shotgun at least the projectiles only go a short distance. With a rifle a bullet can hit a long distance away. I don't think this is a good idea for an urban area. You are right that using a slug in a shotgun would be similar to using a rifle. That is why I don't think a slug would be a good idea either Michael.