German service rifle not accurate

Glenn E. Meyer · June 23, 2014, 11:11 AM

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...Accuracy-Fears

Says the HK gun is inaccurate when hot. Company says it is the ammo that was crappy.

blackamos · June 23, 2014, 11:44 AM

I hate to tell you but wrong forum.

Glenn E. Meyer · June 23, 2014, 12:05 PM

EEK!

Adrian · June 23, 2014, 01:20 PM

Isn't it technically a drive-by, too?

In any case, Der Speiegel has an earlier article about the situation, if you read German (or use Google Translate). From what I can make out, the Bundeswehr discovered that, when the barrel gets hot, certain bearings expand and freeze up, messing with the gun's accuracy until they cool down and loosen up again.

From the Speiegel article, it seems like one manufacturer's ammo was much more likely to cause the problem than others. I can see why they'd want a reinvestigation if the ammo was technically "in-spec", though. You'd want a combat rifle to be reliable enough that you could feed it anything inside normal parameters and still count on it to work as designed.

**44 AMP** · June 23, 2014, 01:23 PM

Sounds like an internal power squabble., using "troop reports" as a hammer to beat the other side with..

"inaccurate when it heats up.." (due to a prolonged firefight..) I wonder just what we they are talking about. Just HOW hot, and HOW "inaccurate" would matter a lot. And then there's "troop reports". Troop reports may be accurate, but may not be. They may only be troops perceptions of failures due to unrealistic expectations.

I remember hearing "troop reports" from early in the current desert wars, questioning the capabilities of their weapons. Apparently they doubted their effectiveness, because they were having to shoot the bad guys more than once before they fell down. Seems it was a bit different from the video games, and that led to the "troop reports."

Adrian · June 23, 2014, 01:48 PM

This article says that hit probability at 300 meters drops by a third, and that sustained fire can permanently damage or even completely disable the weapon. That sounds like it's worth investigating, at least.

ttarp · June 23, 2014, 02:06 PM

This has been an ongoing complaint hasn't it? You'd think they would have resolved it before now.

Colt46 · June 23, 2014, 04:42 PM

There is a lot at stake here. Not just the grunt on the front line. A lot of people stand to make or lose out on, tons of cash if a rifle fails and needs to be replaced.
The fact that combat infantry are dying is usually of secondary consideration to many involved.

Bartholomew Roberts · June 24, 2014, 01:24 AM

IIRC, the Capitol Hill police in D.C. dropped the G36 some time ago for an AR15 (RRA I think?). Rumors on the Internet claimed the same problem - loss of accuracy when hot and blamed the barrel trunion and the plastic receiver.

That would be almost 10 years ago though, so I'm surprised this is still an ongoing issue.

kraigwy · June 24, 2014, 11:42 AM

Gee, and that's the rifle everyone wanted the US Military to adopt replacing the M16/M4.

The only disagreement I have with the article is the comment about the pencil barrels on the M16A1.

Its not a critical to loosing accuracy as the HK or as the article said. The problem with the 'A1 was people tended to pull too hard on the front handguard via the sling swivel. That would tend to disturb the accuracy which wouldn't effect the heavier barrels as much.

If moderate pressure is used the A1's still shot when hot.

That's a training problem not a rifle problem.

mapsjanhere · June 24, 2014, 12:46 PM

This has been a major wannabe scandal for a while in Germany. The last "independent" investigation blamed a certain bullet lot from one ammunition provider for softening too early when shot in hot barrels. I guess that result didn't please someone, so they're doing another investigation.

**44 AMP** · June 24, 2014, 10:05 PM

I have to wonder about a couple of things, first, if there is a serious issue, how is it that the generally very thorough German testing didn't find/fix it?

And, second, what is the reasonable expectation for a light automatic rifle? I mean, nothing keeps its accuracy when it get glowing hot, but where does one draw the line between what is "reasonable" (knowing that there will be real world events that go beyond "reasonable"), and what is "under performance"?

June 23, 2014, 11:11 AM	#1
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	German service rifle not accurate http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...Accuracy-Fears Says the HK gun is inaccurate when hot. Company says it is the ammo that was crappy. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 23, 2014, 11:44 AM	#2
blackamos Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2000 Location: Michigan Posts: 580	I hate to tell you but wrong forum. __________________ Know of that you speak, Amos

June 23, 2014, 12:05 PM	#3
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	EEK! __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

June 23, 2014, 01:20 PM	#4
Adrian Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2007 Location: Free of California! Posts: 274	Isn't it technically a drive-by, too? In any case, Der Speiegel has an earlier article about the situation, if you read German (or use Google Translate). From what I can make out, the Bundeswehr discovered that, when the barrel gets hot, certain bearings expand and freeze up, messing with the gun's accuracy until they cool down and loosen up again. From the Speiegel article, it seems like one manufacturer's ammo was much more likely to cause the problem than others. I can see why they'd want a reinvestigation if the ammo was technically "in-spec", though. You'd want a combat rifle to be reliable enough that you could feed it anything inside normal parameters and still count on it to work as designed. __________________ NRA Life Member since January 2009 Matt.25:40

June 23, 2014, 01:23 PM	#5
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	Sounds like an internal power squabble., using "troop reports" as a hammer to beat the other side with.. "inaccurate when it heats up.." (due to a prolonged firefight..) I wonder just what we they are talking about. Just HOW hot, and HOW "inaccurate" would matter a lot. And then there's "troop reports". Troop reports may be accurate, but may not be. They may only be troops perceptions of failures due to unrealistic expectations. I remember hearing "troop reports" from early in the current desert wars, questioning the capabilities of their weapons. Apparently they doubted their effectiveness, because they were having to shoot the bad guys more than once before they fell down. Seems it was a bit different from the video games, and that led to the "troop reports." __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

June 23, 2014, 01:48 PM	#6
Adrian Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2007 Location: Free of California! Posts: 274	This article says that hit probability at 300 meters drops by a third, and that sustained fire can permanently damage or even completely disable the weapon. That sounds like it's worth investigating, at least. __________________ NRA Life Member since January 2009 Matt.25:40

June 23, 2014, 02:06 PM	#7
ttarp Senior Member Join Date: January 4, 2013 Posts: 888	This has been an ongoing complaint hasn't it? You'd think they would have resolved it before now.

June 23, 2014, 04:42 PM	#8
Colt46 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2002 Location: Campbell Ca Posts: 1,090	And, who are the principal critics? There is a lot at stake here. Not just the grunt on the front line. A lot of people stand to make or lose out on, tons of cash if a rifle fails and needs to be replaced. The fact that combat infantry are dying is usually of secondary consideration to many involved.

June 24, 2014, 01:24 AM	#9
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	IIRC, the Capitol Hill police in D.C. dropped the G36 some time ago for an AR15 (RRA I think?). Rumors on the Internet claimed the same problem - loss of accuracy when hot and blamed the barrel trunion and the plastic receiver. That would be almost 10 years ago though, so I'm surprised this is still an ongoing issue.

June 24, 2014, 11:42 AM	#10
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	Gee, and that's the rifle everyone wanted the US Military to adopt replacing the M16/M4. The only disagreement I have with the article is the comment about the pencil barrels on the M16A1. Its not a critical to loosing accuracy as the HK or as the article said. The problem with the 'A1 was people tended to pull too hard on the front handguard via the sling swivel. That would tend to disturb the accuracy which wouldn't effect the heavier barrels as much. If moderate pressure is used the A1's still shot when hot. That's a training problem not a rifle problem. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

June 24, 2014, 12:46 PM	#11
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	This has been a major wannabe scandal for a while in Germany. The last "independent" investigation blamed a certain bullet lot from one ammunition provider for softening too early when shot in hot barrels. I guess that result didn't please someone, so they're doing another investigation. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

June 24, 2014, 10:05 PM	#12
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	I have to wonder about a couple of things, first, if there is a serious issue, how is it that the generally very thorough German testing didn't find/fix it? And, second, what is the reasonable expectation for a light automatic rifle? I mean, nothing keeps its accuracy when it get glowing hot, but where does one draw the line between what is "reasonable" (knowing that there will be real world events that go beyond "reasonable"), and what is "under performance"? __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.