Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them?

[George Hill]

You come out here to the Uintah Basin and I'll show you the toll that coyotes have taken on livestock and the local populations of antelope, deer, and elk.
The coyotes have no fear anymore of people... too few people hunt them.
There are stories of coyotes taking pets, and threatening children. These are not just fantasy tales. This stuff happens. I saw an old rancher in tears, because coyotes had ravaged his newborn stock. A local kid in the FFA had her prize winning sheep killed.
I've got guys paying me to come around and hunt them around their areas.
And now some city dweller questions the validity of hunting predators?

You come out here and see things for yourself.

[CraigC]

IT looks to me like coyote hunting is more akin to shooting fish in a barrel

That statement, above all others, is a clear indication of your ignorance on this issue. It makes it PLAINLY obvious that you have no idea what it takes to hunt coyotes and that you have made your judgement from afar with little info in hand. And yes, you do immediately come off as an arrogant city dweller that think he knows better than us country bumpkins. Regardless of where you live or your intent.

Coyotes are such a problem in almost every state that they are open to hunting all year long with no bag limits. They wreak havoc on small game species, wild turkeys, deer, game birds, not to mention domestic animals like goats, sheep, calves, chickens, etc. You don't "defend" your livestock against them, you hunt them to control their numbers. Deer need to be hunted to control their numbers, period. Coyotes are no different.

I get a chuckle every time I hear that something has "no natural predators". As if we were an alien species that doesn't belong here. As if it didn't take thousands of years of evolution for humans to reach the top of the food chain.

[TexasSeaRay]

Well then, you couldn't be more wrong, but if we're going to start stereotyping, i'll just call you a southern bumpkin texan redneck, dumb as the day is long. How's that?

Long as you do it from up where you're at with the rest of the Mass-holes. I wouldn't advise trying it down here, especially in the rural areas. Northeasterners down here are about as popular as nosebleeds. Your attitude explains why.

Come on down to TX and tell the cattle ranchers that the coyote population is "controlled." You might just get laughed off your northeastern high horse.

Dead on right.

Hell, we have coyotes wandering our suburban neighborhood and like a previous poster noted, animal control won't do a damned thing--even when small dogs and cats start to turn up missing.

I'm not a huge fan of killing just to kill. But I also differentiate between wanton killing and necessary eradication.

Jeff

[kozak6]

There is a difference between killing for the sake of killing, and pest control.

Killing just for the sake of killing is abhorrent, unsportsmanlike, and reflects poorly upon all of us as shooters and sportsman.

Pest control serves a useful and necessary purpose.

[Thunderhawk88]

Hell, we have coyotes wandering our suburban neighborhood and like a previous poster noted, animal control won't do a damned thing--even when small dogs and cats start to turn up missing.

There are other reasons besides food for hunting and taking an animal. Coyote are considered a nuisance out here because of their numbers and the damage they do.

Taken from the California State Hunting Regulations

472. General Provisions.
Except as otherwise provided in Sections
478 and 485 and subsections (a) through (d)
below, nongame birds and mammals may not
be taken.
(a) The following nongame birds and mammals
may be taken at any time of the year and in any
number except as prohibited in Chapter 6: English
sparrow, starling, coyote, weasels, skunks,
opossum, moles and rodents (excluding tree and
flying squirrels, and those listed as furbearers,
endangered or threatened species).

It's a whole different world out here compared to the Bay State.

[SteelJM1]

I'll admit when I'm wrong, and apparently I am. Sorry. MY attitude was only in response to being attacked in the first place. As far as the thread is concerned, i was trying to comment on some people who seemingly take more joy in just the wanton killing of whatever species is overpopulated than the hunt itself. The more the better, right? Problem is, they can use population control as an excuse, but I digress.

Again I admit about being wrong about the general problem of coyote overpopulation. I'm more than happy to learn more about it (as I'm currently doing) and I apologize for ruffling feathers. I wasn't trying to say that i know more than you guys, or what you're doing is wrong (unless you do it to get your rocks off). What i AM saying however is that I think we need to think of more effective population control measures because as far as i can tell, and I could be wrong, is that the coyote pop. is only getting bigger despite the hunts, unless they were really aggressively hunted down to normal numbers. Hows that?

[Tom2]

We got alot of coyotes around here in Ohio, even at the edge of town. Farmers shoot them to protect their pets and stock. Never saw one when I was a kid, thought they all lived 1000 miles away. Then I occasionaly saw one in town in the winter looking for little dogs to snack on or something. I have no problem with anyone clearing out as many as they can. We also have problems in this state with large deer herds. So get more venison to donate to the homeless shelters etc. Talk about shooting dogs. Well I hope it is really identified ferals, not some clown shooting the neighbors harmless pet because he broke off his chain. All the coyotes I have seen could not be mistaken for a pet, if seen clearly!

[RockyMtnTactical]

I don't have any problems shooting varmints and rodents for any reason whatsoever.

This thread reminds me of when PETA stepped in and made all kinds of threats to Oscar Goodman when they were needing to kill some of the pigeons that were really causing problems in Las Vegas... PETA ended up winning that one...

[Hawg]

Coyotes were a big problem in Ms. several years ago and the state had a bounty on them, may still have in some parts of the state. I never bothered them as long as they didn't bother me but when they started trying to get to my injured horse I cleaned house.

[animal]

And i still dont like people who get kicks out of shooting anything that moves.

I agree with that, but in my experience, it seems to apply more to the "city boys" who don’t know any better.

[MrAnteater]

I have no problem shooting animals whether its a game animal or a nuisance species. Sure it's fun and challenging. Why else hunt?

The bigger problem is there has been this growing movement in this country (animal rights groups and the like) that demonise hunting or shooting a nuisance animal because it's "cruel" in there eyes. They think animals have "rights" the same way human beings do. Especially if some animal is furry and cute to them. It's really sick and disgusting listening to people that think animals are more important than humans.

I feel for people in more rural areas that are stuck living with pests like coyotes. I'm all for controlling animals that effect peoples safety or livelihood.

[SteelJM1]

I have no problem shooting animals whether its a game animal or a nuisance species. Sure it's fun and challenging. Why else hunt?

The bigger problem is there has been this growing movement in this country (animal rights groups and the like) that demonise hunting or shooting a nuisance animal because it's "cruel" in there eyes. They think animals have "rights" the same way human beings do. Especially if some animal is furry and cute to them. It's really sick and disgusting listening to people that think animals are more important than humans.

I feel for people in more rural areas that are stuck living with pests like coyotes. I'm all for controlling animals that effect peoples safety or livelihood.

Oh boy, I hope I didn't come across as one of those types, because that was certainly not my intention and not how I feel. It grates my nerves to no end getting chastized by people for eating rabbit as they wolf down a hamburger.

[Spacedoggy]

Didn't Jeffery Dahmer start off that way?

[44 AMP]

Your problem with people who just seem to take pleasure in killing animals is justified. Sportsmen have had this problem for a long time. We used to call them "city hunters", and other less savory names.

See, the main problem is that anyone who buys a gun and steps off the pavement is a "hunter". NO matter how well or how poorly they exibit sportsmanship, to the press and the non-hunting public, they are "hunters", and the worst people tend to become the image that is held up to the public. The entertainment industry is dead set against what they call "blood sports" (unless it involves men in a ring that they can make money from), and killing animals is "cruel". These people have never seen, and never will see nature in it's actuality, only in the edited version you get on TV. It is not more cruel to humanely kill any animal with a gun, bow, or even traps, than it is for them to die a "natural" death. A natural death for a wild animal is to be killed and eaten by a predator (not exactly painless), to die of disease, or to starve to death when old age cripples them to the point where they can't get food. Or to die of cold or starvation in the winter. All kind gentle painless gun things, right? Old animals don't spend their time being cared for in nursing homes until one day the pass away in their sleep. Harvesting game animals could actually be looked on as a kindness, and true sportsmen do their best to take game cleanly, humanely, and as painlessly as possible.

Each generation for the last few, fewer and fewer people have taken un sport hunting, and have fewer and fewer places and opportunities to hunt. Many previously hunted animals are now protected, not because their populations are in danger of extinction, but because hunting is "wrong", and many places formerly open to hunting are now closed to it.

Coyotes back east (I grew up in northern NY, so I do know a bit about it), have filled the role of general predator, and as you have noted, have few natural enemies, and man in that area is not doing his job of being one of them. The reason the coyote comes into your subdivision, shows no fear, and raids your garbage and eats your pets is that he is not being hunted! So he stands there, and looks at you, because you are not dangerous to him. If you started hunting them, you would find out pretty quick that once they realize you are dangerous to them (and it won't take long), that they won't just stand there so they can be shot "like fish in a barrel".

True, coyotes don't attack humans often (or even frequently), but that is because they eat everything else. Humans aren't worth the trouble.

Population cycles are just that. Cycles. Have a mild winter, more rabbits survive, next year, more coyotes. Too many coyotes, eat too many rabbits, fewer rabbits, then fewer coyotes. Up and down. We killed or drove off the big predators, and we used to kill enough of the smaller ones (coyote, fox, bobcat, etc), but we had a lot more people (hunters and ranchers/farmers) who were doing it. And we used traps, And we used poison. And we never really did more than hold our own in local areas.

Today, you can't use poison (never really cared for that one myself, too indiscriminate), most places you can't use traps that kill, and many places no traps at all, and there aren't nearly as many people who can take the time to hunt them. AND, you don't get hardly nothing from hunting them anymore, either. 30-40 years ago, coyote pelts could bring as much as $100 for a prime winter pelt. Made the time hunting them worth it and more.

Can't wear (real) fur today they say it is "wrong". No market for coyote pelts anymore, can't hardly even give them away. Why bother hunting them if you aren't a rancher. And if you are, you don't really have the time.

No matter what you see on Disney, they aren't nice critters. They can (and do) carry rabies. And one kind of rabies has NO visual symptoms. They can be rabid without the wild foaming at the mouth behavior. And if you get bit, you got it too! And rabies is fatal, eventually. We have treatment, but it is no fun at all.

No matter who you blame for how we got here (over hunting predators, habitat destruction, whatever) the fact is we are here, and we are not being allowed to do what needs to be done, as well as it needs to be done. Not enough people hunt, hunting is looked down on by the social elite, trapping and poison are out, and the same social elite won't spend the money needed for game depts to manage the animals. In fact, the majority of the money that state game depts do get comes from hunters and fishermen, through license fees and taxes on sporting goods.

Out where I now live, we used to be able to hunt cougars. And they were hunted with dogs. A handful of cougars were killed each season. About half a dozen years ago, they banned dogs from being used. You can still hunt cougars, just not with dogs. Today, almost no cougars are taken by hunters each season, as cats are really hard to find and track down without something like dogs. Several outfitters who used to make money for the state (through fees) got out of the business, because, without dogs, there isn't any business. Cougar population is way up, and they are coming into towns now, because they are no longer afraid of dogs (and men). In fact the state, instead of making money off the hunting, now has to spend money ($2 million last year) hiring out of state hunters and using game dept personel to hunt, trap, and kill nuiance cougars. Children have been menaced, and there have even been a couple of attacks, fortuanately non fatal.

This is the animal protectionist idea of proper animal management. Do nothing, nature will take care of it all. Sure, it will all work out, but as it does we have to listen to the people who caused it whine.

[grymster2007]

Shooting any living creature for thrills is friggin sick!:barf: That said; there are legitimate reasons for dispatching animals that pose a threat or nuisance. I don’t mind anything edible being shot for the dinner plate (as long as it's not the last of the species or some such), and require a bit more justification for coyotes, wolves, bears, cats, etc. But just for thrills don’t cut it!

[SteelJM1]

Well said 44. That's all it takes to set me straight.

[chris in va]

I live in Virginia. The next county over has a bounty of $50 for any coyotes shot.

Problem is, to my knowledge VA really never had an extensive predator list. Bears, sure but they don't usually take down coyotes, and I'm not aware of any cougars in the area. That makes them top on the food chain, except for...you guessed it...humans.

So if hunters don't take them down, nothing else will except for old age and injury/disease. Last year I was coming home from the grocery store to see one run across a 4 lane road into my subdivision. Looked like a bushy tailed German Shepherd.

[Sigma 40 Blaster]

I think some people need to get off of their judgmental soap boxes, I bet that guy lives in the city. I had to drive 30 minutes to kill a coyote that had my mother in law trapped in her car like Cujo, not to mention they lose a few cattle a month due to these worthless animals. Any of them aggressive enough to approach me while I'm down there go down, I figure if they're smart enough to run they are good for their gene pool...don't really care what anyone has to say about that.

I do hunt hogs, deer, and squirrel (don't eat the tree rats but my brother in law does). I do it for several reasons, the challenge of the hunt being the primary reason...I'm not a treestand kind of guy, I actually get out in the woods, walk, hide, and sometimes chase on foot.

I'll go further and say I have no heads mounted on my wall and wouldn't go to an exotic place just to kill an exotic animal...I enjoy it, spending time with my family members who go out there with me, and enjoy the meat that usually results.

Maybe I'm just not as enlightened as the might protector of varmints but I have to worry about protecting my family (and our property) first. Killing humans and livestock is in a different category than stealing TV's or eating garbage...

[TexasSeaRay]

Sigma, you bring up a good point about the gene pool.

Coyotes are a testament to Darwin's theory. The truly superior examples of the species will, in all likelihood, never be seen nor shot by any human.

Why? They're smart enough and evolved enough to know that contact with or near humans is not good. They've perfected their hunting techniques, established territory, and become dominant in their "turf," thus driving the lesser examples into range of humans where they can then be disposed of.

Jeff

[BillCA]

I'm just saying its not as simple as just killing them off to keep their numbers down, because that isn't working, Unless you kill them all. At least that was the case in CA that i read about.

Thanks to Thunderhawk88 down in So.Cal for pointing out they're a nusiance animal even in liberal California.

Of course if you shoot one, expect some authority to show up because of a call about a man shooting at dogs.

Up here in Northern California, it's pretty rare to see them around the bay area. But get into the hills or get out towards the central valley and you can find them... occasionally.

Here in CA, some of the urban sprawl (into the wilder areas) comes in the form of gated or "premier" communities (another way of saying a small house for a high price). Folks moved into one of these near San Diego and inside of 2 years had a problem with Coyotes. After 4 of 'em took down a pair of adult Weimaraners someone pleaded with the state to "do something". That turned out to be letting hunters shoot them just east of the community. But one resident was the treasurer for a local PETA chapter and organized a protest action "to prevent the reckless slaughter of Canis latrans". The irony is that while out protesting, a coyote killed her Yorkshire Terrier (Canis Rattus). Despite this, she still tried to stop the killing of Coyotes.

Which just goes to prove that 'Yotes are smarter than some Californians.

[Taxidermist]

I'm from the sticks in northern New York and I enjoy hunting coyotes. Being a taxidermist I do use the hides. I sell them to city slickers. LOL. I can say there seem to be very few people left in this area who hunt any furbearers. I don't see hunting coyotes as hurting their population at all except it removes the dumb ones from the pack. It is getting harder every year to call them. You need to change calls it seems every year because they are smart and catch on quick. Besides that I enjoy hunting them and not ashamed to admit that.
John

[NukemJim]

SteelJM1

MY attitude was only in response to being attacked in the first place.

Sorry Steel JM1 your attitude was showing in your first post.

Your lack of knowledge and experience showed in most of your posts.

Not attacking you. Just stating my opinoin from reading the thread.

No hard feelings, you did not know what you were talking about and had an attitude about what you did not know. You know know a LITTLE bit more and seem to have changed you attitude a LITTLE bit .

NukemJim

PS SteelJM1 Please note my top signature line.

[Oldphart]

I don't hunt anymore. Not because I didn't enjoy it but because I can't get around in the hills and brush anymore. But this morning I killed an animal just because I was tired of listening to it.

I live in a house that was built in 1913. It has two floors, a basement and an attic. In the front yard is a walnut tree that draws squirrels from four states away. This fall, after the nuts were pretty well gone, one of those little tree-rats took up residence in my attic. I could hear the little beggar rustling around over my head as I tried to sleep. From time to time he'd drop something and I could hear it rolling around. Other times he'd just push the insulation into comfy little piles so he could rest on or in them.

This morning I pushed a step-ladder up under the trapdoor to the attic and ventured up into the dark. Now, as I've gotten older and less fit I've also gotten bigger so the trapdoor was a bit of a challenge just to get my shoulders through but I finally twisted and contorted until I could get both arms and my upper body through the hole. I scanned the smooth surface of fluffy insulation with my Maglite until I saw the damned squirrel sitting on a joist, eating one of my walnuts and otherwise ignoring me.

Since this had been just a recon trip I wasn't armed so I pulled myself back down through the trapdoor and retreived my daughter's 10/22, loaded it with Aguila Super Colibre and climbed back up there. The audacious little pest was still sitting right where I had seen him before so I laid my flashlight down to give me enough light, took careful aim and ....

My daughter, standing at the foot of the ladder asked me what went wrong since she's heard the hammer fall but didn't hear a muzzle report. I carefully handed the rifle down to her, then my cell-phone (it had fallen out of my pocket) and finally the bushy-tailed corpse.

So yeah, once in awhile I kill something I don't intend to eat but I still have a good reason.

[grymster2007]

Seems most here shoot animals for a reason. Put meat on the table, sell the furs, eliminate a threat or nuisance. I don’t recall reading a post from anyone “Shooting animals for the sake of shooting them”… think that’s a good thing.

BTW:

Up here in Northern California, it's pretty rare to see them around the bay area. But get into the hills or get out towards the central valley and you can find them... occasionally.

In the hills between Napa and Fairfield I’m seeing coyotes a bit more than “occasionally”. And some of them within 2 miles of Hwy 80.

[MosinM38]

We shoot coyotes once their fur is prime. And we trap them at that time..They don't casue major trouble so we wait until we can do something other that shoot them and leave them.

But we HAVE had troubles. A few years ago the snow got fairly deep and they started packing up. KIlled a couple newborn calves. So we started shooting them pretty hard after that.

I personally hate people who shoot a coyote just to kill something...The urge "To just kill something" isn't proper in most places.

But coyotes need to be controlled. It doesn't happen naturally (At least around here in Montana).

They CAN be dangerous. My uncle had one that although it didn't attack him...certainly wasn't afraid and was prowling around his house. Got a cat before he could shoot it....Now it probably wouldn't have happened, but...His 3 year old girl sometimes wanders round the house..Who knows..Play it safe than sorry.

But in ending..Anyone who kills anthing JUST for the fun of killing something....they almost should have their firearms taken from them....Pest control is differant..Such as me and dads shooting of over 15,000 rounds of .22LR ammo last year at gophers. (Down from 18,000 the year before )