Bad Martial Arts (Teaching as Advertised)

madgrad · June 19, 2002, 10:00 PM

I'm sure we have all walked into a Dojo where what art they said they were teaching, was anything but what was actually being taught.

examples:

We teach Muay Thai, but it's actually Full Contact Karate Kick Boxing, upon observation.

We teach BJJ, but it looks WWF Wrestleing, upon observation.

We teach Combatives, but all the class does is forms, upon observation.

I'm sure you all get the Gyst of my topic.

Now, it's the time to share your pain/ laughs with the rest of us.

Kalindras · June 20, 2002, 09:39 AM

Up by the Daycare we occasionally drop the kid in to, there's a place. I stopped by, because I'm always interested to watch other styles, in the hopes that I can pick up some little tricks or wisdom.

This place was a jewel.

First off, the teacher looked like his primary technique was the "Moo-shoo Pork" maneuver. I'd hate to grapple this guy...his gravity well could give the GRACIES problems!!!

So, anyway, I'm watching as he lines up his class, facing each other. Then he proceeds to show them what I can only hope was supposed to be a flow drill of some sort. To a man, every single pair engaged in what looked like a three-year-old slap fight!! I couldn't conceal a bit of a smirk...but then I got really scared, when he handed each person a (thankfully!) rubber knife. Now, I must interject at this point, the students of this class ranged from what looked like 8 or 10, up to 30 or 40. Maybe, like our Public Schools, he was teaching to the lowest common denominator. I thought that's what separate classes were for...? But, anyway...

Apparently, sissy-fighting is now a viable street technique. So I watched in horror for several more minutes, as these folks flailed away at one another (I got the impression, from watching, that several of these folks were just in for their first lesson, before signing up--and that they had never held a knife before in their lives...even to chop fruit.), slashing and cutting with all of the abandon of a Benihana chef on quaaludes.

Then, this warmup finished, Mt. Fuji proceeds to show his class how to disarm a knife-wielding attacker...by...wait for it...you got it! GRABBING THE KNIFE. You know, the old "Clap your hands on either side of the knife and twist it off-line" gag. When I picked my jaw up, off of the ground, next to my eyes, I watched him demonstrate (several times, as his assistant/assailant had a disturbing difficulty in attacking him precisely on the line that he could grab the knife from...) this move.

"This man is creating casualties," I said to myself, "Or corpses."

EEK.

I couldn't stand it. Yet, like a train wreck, I found myself unable to tear away. I must've stood there for ten or fifteen minutes, watching the last of that class. I considered approaching him afterwards, but thought better of it. After, in its own way, Martial Arts is like Politics or Religion. As far as the real zealots go, 98% of the time, you won't change their mind about their beliefs...the other 2% won't listen, either, because they're too busy trying to make you change your mind about YOUR beliefs...!!

Kal

madgrad · June 20, 2002, 09:57 PM

That's what I'm talking about Kalindras. Now, come on people I know there are more stories out there. Please share them with us.

ATeaM · June 20, 2002, 11:27 PM

I went into a MT gym on a trip, it wasn't that their training was bad (which it was) but the place was plastered in biblical quotes. They forgot to mention in their advertisement that they were a church group. A hardcore born again church group. To each his own, I like my ass woopin and religion in separate servings.

LawDog · June 21, 2002, 12:08 AM

Co-worker of mine waxes enthusiastic about this aikido school he's going to. Insists that some friends and I just have to come and learn at the feet of this sensei.

I'm curious and I'm always up to learning something new. So co-worker and I and one of my buddies load up one evening and drive 200 miles to this class.

I've seen at lot of unarmed combat instructors, but this guy was the first one I've ever met who wheezed when he talked. And I guarantee you that he's never missed a meal. And most of them were baked cheese or something.

And he's got this Martial Arts Death God thing going. Folks, I completely understand and agree with the requirement to show respect to the dojo and to the sensei, but I've this thing about grovelling. It's the stiff Scottish neck, or something. Can't do it.

Anyhoo, sensei waits until the class has grovelled to his liking, then makes his Pronouncement for the Day and class begins. I guess. I think.

He does a technique, and then gestures grandly to the class, and they try to imitate what he just did while he screams and wheezes at them.

Seriously. I'm talking purple-in-the-face, veins-popping, dude-you're-gonna-have-a-coronary, slobber-slinging abuse at the top of his lungs.

Well. Co-worker is flying around the dojo, banging his forehead off the mat every time sensei walks by and my buddy John and I are looking at each other with our eyebrows climbing into our hairlines and wondering if we've stumbled onto a secret Oriental S&M training camp, when sensei deigns to notice our presence.

He stops the class(?), waddles up to us and asks what we think we know. John respectfully (never insult an S&M practioner in his own home) answers that we've studied kickboxing, some stick-and-knife stuff and a little bit of grappling.

Sensei opines at the top of his lungs that he will teach us things [wheeze] about the knife that lesser arts [wheeze] will never know. Or things to that effect. Student is summoned, runs up, bangs his forehead on the mat, runs off, comes back, bangs his forehead on the mat (what is it with the forehead banging?) and sensei tells him to attack.

Student stabs, sensei grabs his wrist, pulls him left, pulls him right, pulls him left again (I think), grabs the students face, student goes flying, all other students bang their foreheads on the mats.

Very pretty.

Sensei tells John to attack his senior student. John aks how the student would like him to attack. Sensei replies that the ki [wheeze] of the senior student will allow him to sense and [wheeze] react to any attack John could come up with. Sensei furthers instructs John to [wheeze] go full speed and to try to [wheeze] do his best, so that John will learn [wheeze] how much he has yet to learn.

Or things to that effect.

John shrugs, lunges into the student, slashes him twice across the chest, student grabs John's wrist, John twists his wrist loose, fires a thrust kick into the students tummy, steps to the right and slashes him twice across the side of the neck as he bends forward, then leaps back into a low guard. Standard streetfighting smash-and-slash attack.

We're summarily ejected from the dojo.

LawDog

Skorzeny · June 21, 2002, 03:41 AM

LawDog:

That's got to be the funniest Aikido dojo description I ever heard! "Forehead banging" (chuckles)... You just kill me.

How about this?

Aikido Shihan: Then you invite the attacker to grab your wrist... and then...

Student: How do you invite the attacker to grab your wrist?

Aikido Shihan: You project your Ki and extend your arm, thus inviting him to grab it.

Student: (After trying his Ki on me) I can't do it. He (that's me) won't grab me.

Aikido Shihan: (To student) your Ki is weak. Train further. (To me) you have bad spirit (huh?). You are dismissed for the day.

Skorzeny

Matt Wallis · June 21, 2002, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Aikido Shihan: You project your Ki and extend your arm, thus inviting him to grab it.

Okay, true story...

Me: About 5th grade. At the local area community pool. Had a few weeks of Hapkido training at YMCA. Learned first 5 basic throws, all done in response to a straight across wrist grab, and also some basic punching and kicking at which I was... quite lame!

Him: My own personal Goliath. Probably only in the 8th or 9th grade in hindsight, but he had hit puberty and so seemed like he was about 10 times my size. He had decided, probably out of boredom, to entertain himself by splashing water at me. And this was not a friendly "hey let's play" splashing. It was a "I'm going to make your day at the pool miserable just to entertain myself" kind of splashing.

Me: Try splashing back. Bad idea. Small kid splashing back only serves to make Goliath angry, and redouble his splashing efforts.

Me again: Consider options... Can't kick in water. And if ineffectual splashing served to make him angry, ineffectual punching isn't going to help either. Ah, but I have those wrist throws! If only he will grab my wrist.

Still Me: Let's see how stupid Goliath is. Hold out left arm rather weakly toward giant angry agressor.

Him: Grabs my wrist! That's right, folks! He even snarled as he did it.

Me: Execute Hapkido wrist throw number 1.

Him: Surprised look. Pain. Under water.

Me: Yea!

Him: Explodes from under water like the Hulk looking to smash something.

Me: Run away! And he never did catch me.

Regards,
Matt

Correia · June 21, 2002, 10:59 AM

I took Kempo the whole time I was in college. I'm no great martial artist by any means, but I enjoy sparring, wrestling, and just generally getting smacked around. (Hey I grew up in the sticks, what else are the kids supposed to do?)

Our instructor was laid back, and believed strongly in teaching only what he thought was practical. Nothing real flashy. But a really good basic class. Once a year we would compete in the local sparring tournament. It was Japanese point style, and I never really got into it, but I figured I would give it a try this year.

There was a local karate dojo run by this enormous fat guy. I mean he was tubby. Not one of those big tough guys with a belly, but an obese tub of lard. His guys wore these Black uniforms with about 100 patches. They had twenty different color belts, and then stripes to go on them.

Lots of flash. Lots of high kicking. General silliness.

Well I win my first match. And in my second match I need to fight one of guys from the fat sensai's school. Well guess what, the fat guy is the judge. (keep in mind this is for points).

We start, I charge the guy, and hit him in the head a bunch of times. He retreats straight back, and falls on his but on the way out of the ring. Result. I get penalized a point for lack of "control".

We go again, he hits me with this little feeble backfist that could maybe have injured a toddler, I jabbed him in the nose and kicked him in the stomach, he falls down, holding his belly. Result. He gets a point for the back fist. I get nada. See he got me first. Ooookaaayy...

At this point I'm getting pretty ticked off at the fat judge and starting to get angry. And the guy I'm sparring with is getting all shaky and jumpy. We come back for the third and final time, I pretty much just ditch any form of technique and just punch the dude in the headgear. Knock him silly. I was then disqualified for using to much force in point sparring.

At the end of the tournament the guys in the black uniforms did really good in every match judged by their fat teacher, and got their butts kicked everywhere else. That was my first, last, and only attempt at point sparring.

And here is the sad part. The university hired the fat dude to teach the official self defense class on campus. The one that all the girls would go to, to earn credit and hopefully learn how to defend themselves. Some of my friends took the class. Uggg. He taught the most ridiculous and complicated techniques I had ever seen. Things like wrist locks that had like six steps, and took ten seconds and a willing attacker to work.

And the sad part is these people would come of the self defense class feeling like they were one of the Gracies or something.

Halffast · June 21, 2002, 02:30 PM

What is it with fat black belts?

Here is my story.

Part of my requirements as a brown belt was to go to six outside schools and turn in a written report on each to my instructor. As I sometimes have the habit of putting things off until the last moment, (I think they call it "procrastination"....I'll look it up in the dictionary....tomorrow.) I had to scramble to get them all done. I found out about a class at a church from a friend of a friend and called the instructor to see if I could come observe his class. He said it was fine, and I showed up at the next class. When the instructor showed up (5 minutes late) he was 5'9" tall and weighed about 275. He only had a kids class and most of the kids were from poorer families. He told me that he was trying to instill confidence, respect, and self esteam in the kids.He said that he charged $1.00 and a Bible verse from each kid each night. He said that the dollar was optional but the Bible verse wasn't. It all sounded pretty good.

Well he lined the kids up and didn't even stretch them out. They went right into techniques, and if one of them did something incorrectly, he didn't show them the proper way do do it. Instead he made them drop and do pushups. Anywhere from 25 to 200. There was a boy that kept dropping his back hand when he kicked, and after fat boy gave him pushups twice, he got a roll of duct tape and taped the kid's arms up.

After class, I spoke with the instructor about his style and it's origins. He told me that his style was a combination of Goju, Kung fu, and Tae kwon do. He knew nothing of the history of any of these arts. I suspect that he never earned a black belt from any one school or style. He probably took a little here and a little there and made his own style up and went to the MA supply store and bought his belt. He claimed to be 4th dan. Maybe the level is determined by how many whole pies you can eat in a minute!

Seriously, I am very leary of any black belt that looks like they can't run a mile in under 10 minutes. I find that the martial arts is much like the gun culture in that it attracts some of the best people and some of the worst.

David

AdrenalineJunky · June 21, 2002, 03:57 PM

that is literally 300 feet from my front door. First, a little background. I've done Muay Thai off-and-on-and-off-and-on-again now for almost seven years. I'm twenty three now, and Muay Thai was my religion during my freshman and sophmore years of highschool. The class started to lose students, not because it was a bad class, but because it was a small community and many of the stdents had grown old enough to become "too cool" for "kickboxing." So, to bring you current, the knowledge is there, but the body ain't what it used to be.

So, I began working as a bouncer at a local dance club, and thought I'd get a little defense oriented training to compliment my Thai experience. And this Aikido "dojo" was right at the end of my street...'cool,' I thought.

First, I want to make something clear, this was a professional, well-structured class, taught by a few professional instructors, and I'm not knocking the class or the instructors. I took the class for a couple of months at a cost of $50 a month, which seemed reasonable. I found out that, not only do you have to be an "expert" (slightly exaggerated) in aikido to be able to apply it in a "street situation," but even then, it seems that 75% of it revolves around the stupidity of your opponent.

During the last class I attended, the teacher (who seemed bragg enough to be noted, but not enough to annoy me) was talking about a fight that had happened a couple of years ago down at the club I bounce at. She (yes the teacher was a female--if you could call her that)was saying that one of the guys in the fight was a self-acclaimed blackbelt in somthing or other, and was kicking the crap out of the Cops who had come to break up the fight. Basically the story leads to her stepping in like Steven Segal, who actually frequented the dojo for a number of years while living in the area, and wrapping the guy up like a pretzel.

Her story didn't seem 100% accurate, to say the least. So we started laying out scenarios, "what would you do if I did this" kinda thing. Over the course of the next ten minutes, I proceeded to demonstrate to the class, although probably not to the teacher, that a decent boxer or, in my case, Thai fighter, would run a decent aikido student through the cleaners.

I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the teacher, because she was AMAZING at aikido. She could really put the hurt on me...if I let her. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the art, because I think aikido is a bad ass art (proly too many Steven Segal movies). It just seems like it's not for the street, at least not in and of itself, maybe mixed with boxing or something. Not quite on point with the rest of the posts, but I felt like sharing. Rant over.

madgrad · June 22, 2002, 01:12 AM

I'm laughing my ass off.

It's like no matter what the style is: the size and wieght of the person teaching it is the same as well as possible mental disorders too. No matter where you go.

Let's see how long we can keep this thread running.

BTW this discussion is not just limited to Dojo's. If you have took any Defense Tactics or Officer Survival type training that seemed dubious, dangerous, or just out right stupid. Share your tale of woe here.

We'd love to hear it.

Toadlicker · June 22, 2002, 09:25 AM

Hi, guys! First post.

Aikido has a lousy track record because most schools don't seem to teach that you need to HIT your opponent before you try to lock them up! An active, well-balanced attacker does not get grabbed and thrown easily. Digging a finger deep into an eyeball (theirs, hopefully) gives you the opportunity to bounce them off the concrete.

Matt, your experience with hapkido reminds me of my own. 10 new wrist throws per belt, very little emphasis on punching, elbowing, kneeing, responses to the football tackle, etc. "Grab my wrist, punk! I dare you!"

WhiteFox · June 22, 2002, 10:01 AM

The first poster has observed that many martial arts schools don't seem to measure up to their claims. And that is quite true and, unfortunately, the rule. Especially in the US, the land of the quick-fix mentality, martial arts schools are simply an extension of the consumer mentality and fill a need for most people who will never devote more than a month or two to ANY discipline except maybe watching TV.
The rest of the comments demonstrate yet another unfortunate side of the fake martial arts mentality. Boasting and bragging with your friends I suppose is fun, but a pointless waste of time when it comes to improving your character.

And then we have AJ, who at 23 already knows far more than any school can teach him. He has, after all, seen the light as a bouncer. Well, AJ, Mark the Animal's books will be of some comfort to you, then since his life as a bouncer is cleanly documented in his books and taught in his seminars. No doubt his methods are scary and effective and work wonders on the street. But unless our ultimate goal is to be the admiration of any street punk out there, I do believe there is more to be learned than how to take out some beligerent ******* you may encounter. In any case, the consumer-oriented schools fill a need and that is good. As always the real teachers are rarely found in the yellow pages and it is up to YOU to seek them out and get down to the hard work of learning what they have to offer.

Toadlicker · June 22, 2002, 11:49 AM

Shame on us for thinking that there should be some martial in the martial arts...

Don Gwinn · June 22, 2002, 02:10 PM

Ian, Missy says she would buy a book of your stories. Just something to ponder.

Skorzeny · June 23, 2002, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Aikido has a lousy track record because most schools don't seem to teach that you need to HIT your opponent before you try to lock them up! An active, well-balanced attacker does not get grabbed and thrown easily.

Right on the money! Atemia-Waza (striking techniques) are essential. They don't have to be super-powerful, just enough to distract or unbalance the opponent.

Same thing with Judo throws - real life applications of Judo throws require some sort of Atemi-Waza as well - something that Kano Jigoro understood, which sporterization of the art has largely erased.

There is another way in which Aikido (or Aiki-Jujutsu) style joint locks and throws can work - weapon retention. Here is a situation in which the attacker willingly puts this wrist within the grasp of your grip - no need to go chasing the attacker trying to grab his wrist!

Skorzeny

madgrad · June 24, 2002, 10:06 PM

The point of this forum is not "My Art is Better than your Art", or "My style is Better than yours"

The point of this forum is Humor. On each of our journeys to find a Martial Art to learn. We have each ran into the many fakes, frauds, charlatans, and mental patients abound in the field of Martial Arts, since it is very unregulated. I thought this would be a fun place to share our collective tales of Woe, Amazement, Stupidity, and Disbelief. We have all encountered at one time or another during our journey learning.

I just wish I could've rephrased the Topic of this forum better in the begining when I started it.

Now let's get back to laughing!!!

kungfool · June 25, 2002, 05:13 PM

I am a 4th degree blackbelt and I have owned my own taekwondo School for five years, as well as being an assistant instructor for 3 years before that.
The problem with the martial arts industry is that it is unregulated. There is nothing in most communities to prevent "Jow Blow" with little or no martial arts training to open the "Joe Blow School of martial Arts."
Also many times students become a 1st degree blackbelt, get a big head and want a school of their own before they have beeen properly taught how to instruct. So many times the chief instructor and even the owner of such a school will be lacking.
I teach Taekwondo and "practical street self defense". Obviously, practical street self defense can cover almost anything. But taekwondo is taekwondo. I see some karate schools changed their names without changing their games when taekwondo became the most popular martial art in the world.
Thirty years ago, you had to be tough just to make it through one class in taekwondo. Nowadays the bar has been lowered for white belts. this has been done both to bring in needed capital for the business, but more importantly so that people (especially children) did not have to be tough to begin training. But the bar for being a blackbelt, (giving leeway to elderly or disabled students) has not been lowered.
However, there are many schools that just suck the money and sell the hype more than the tradition of martial arts. Sometimes I think those schools outnumber the legitimate schools. But there ARE good schools out there, you just have to know how to shop. For anyone who wishes me to list what to look for in good schools and bad) simply reply in kind and I will gladly list what to look for in detail.

Skorzeny · June 25, 2002, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Also many times students become a 1st degree blackbelt, get a big head and want a school of their own before they have beeen properly taught how to instruct.

A "1st degree black belt" means different things in different systems. Some Tae Kwon Do schools almost habitually award black belts to people who study continuously for a year or so.

In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, on the other side of the spectrum, a black belt takes ten years or so of intense training (there is only a handful of American black belts in BJJ, literally). In BJJ, too, belts wear different stripes depending on their focus (instructor stripe, competitive fighter stripe and student stripe).

Some systems (like Muay Thai) clearly delineate different forms of training (for example, for casual students, for competitive fighters and for instructors), and no one is fooled about what the differences mean.

Quote:

I teach Taekwondo and "practical street self defense". Obviously, practical street self defense can cover almost anything.

So where do you draw your curriculum for the "practical street self defense" training?

Skorzeny

kungfool · June 26, 2002, 12:42 PM

testing....testing.......(I'm a neophyte with problems signing on to this site....*g*

Don Gwinn · June 26, 2002, 04:42 PM

I should have warned you, KF, that Taekwondo is sometimes looked upon with suspicion around here. Too many McDojos handing out black belts as door prizes.

Though I might hasten to add that many arts have that problem, and if BJJ becomes as widespread and popular as TKD, it will probably have the same problems. Was reading the other day that Krav Maga dropped their belt system for this very reason. KM didn't have belts when it first hit these shores, and Lichtenfield (sp) grudgingly agreed to institute a system of belts to better "fit in" to existing systems here. After a couple of years, however, KM began to see schools popping up with students who didn't live up to their rankings. In addition, Lichtenfield decided there was too much pressure to move into competition, which he thought would dilute the combative aspects, so the belts were abandoned and there are no KM competitions to this day.

All this is from a book, so I don't pretend to know how accurate it is, but it was interesting.

madgrad · June 26, 2002, 09:21 PM

I'm interested in reading it.

Skorzeny · June 27, 2002, 04:30 AM

Don Gwinn:

Quote:

Though I might hasten to add that many arts have that problem, and if BJJ becomes as widespread and popular as TKD, it will probably have the same problems.

True enough. However that won't happen - because BJJ will NEVER become as popular as TKD. I can go into endless reasons why that is so, but I won't.

Skorzeny

Don Gwinn · June 27, 2002, 08:27 AM

Madgrad, that's the good news. It's an ebook a guy hosts for free. Again, I can't vouch for the information contained therein, but if it's not good, you haven't paid for it. Can't beat that deal.

http://www.angelfire.com/art/maa

In addition to the book on KM, there's one on Aikido, which was the reason I checked it out, and couple of others.

kungfool · June 28, 2002, 12:44 PM

Skorzeny.....................Sorry about not answering you sooner...I'm new to this forum stuff....

No 1 year blackbelts at my school......average time is 5 years....a couple have trained 5 days a week and made it in three.......But your point is a good one.....the reason for so many fake schools is that in the USA the martial arts industry is unregulated......there is nothing to stop "Joe Blow" form opening "Joe Blows school of martial arts' and teaching whatever joe blow wants to...
many schools have unqualified instructors or instructors (even grandmasters) who have gotten greedy and are selling rank to make big profits. I even know of one school who "awards" blackbelts for 1 years attendance. They even only teach the kicks on one leg!....(I hope a student at least gets to choose which leg!)
It is a big concern of mine. I have been working to change it as well as several other aspects i see as wrong in the idustry.

You're question is a good one........I base my self-defense class on a few factors.

First-hand experiences....I grew up in the slums ( a white boy in an all black city).....and learned the mentality of attackers as well as tried and true methods and the ability to dispel myths....(You may be surprised to know how mnay women still believe that a good kick to the groin will disable an attacker.)

Though I am not ranked in it, I have studied Hapkido quite a bit and tested techniques to adapt them to people of all levels of abilities.

I also address the emotional/psychological/legal implications. I also stresss basics over advanced techniques since a good command of the basics will get most people out of most confrontations and avoid injury.

I do not mislead anyone and make them think that what I show them gives them anymore advantage than they would have if they don't practice them. Nor do I let them believe they can go out and take some bar brawler out in a single move. I cover many aspects of the realities of attack and self defense.

I also take into account who I am teaching.....children......ladies......students....or civilians....different approaches must be used for the different classes.

I agree with you about belt rankings.....I use them But i would rather not. However, American's (especially children) are proned to want to see an outward display of their progress.....(I have tied a white belt on my waist a couple of times just to show my students that the belt by itself means little.

I also agree with you that BJJ will not fall to the same level of exploitism that TKD has. for the more reasons than any civilian would be aware of, (although I've seen Mcdogo's with ju-jitsu as well)....unfortunately it comes with the rise in popularity.

June 19, 2002, 10:00 PM	#1
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	Bad Martial Arts (Teaching as Advertised) I'm sure we have all walked into a Dojo where what art they said they were teaching, was anything but what was actually being taught. examples: We teach Muay Thai, but it's actually Full Contact Karate Kick Boxing, upon observation. We teach BJJ, but it looks WWF Wrestleing, upon observation. We teach Combatives, but all the class does is forms, upon observation. I'm sure you all get the Gyst of my topic. Now, it's the time to share your pain/ laughs with the rest of us.

June 20, 2002, 09:39 AM	#2
Kalindras Member Join Date: January 17, 2002 Location: Wichita Falls, TX Posts: 70	Ooh, saw one just the other day... Up by the Daycare we occasionally drop the kid in to, there's a place. I stopped by, because I'm always interested to watch other styles, in the hopes that I can pick up some little tricks or wisdom. This place was a jewel. First off, the teacher looked like his primary technique was the "Moo-shoo Pork" maneuver. I'd hate to grapple this guy...his gravity well could give the GRACIES problems!!! So, anyway, I'm watching as he lines up his class, facing each other. Then he proceeds to show them what I can only hope was supposed to be a flow drill of some sort. To a man, every single pair engaged in what looked like a three-year-old slap fight!! I couldn't conceal a bit of a smirk...but then I got really scared, when he handed each person a (thankfully!) rubber knife. Now, I must interject at this point, the students of this class ranged from what looked like 8 or 10, up to 30 or 40. Maybe, like our Public Schools, he was teaching to the lowest common denominator. I thought that's what separate classes were for...? But, anyway... Apparently, sissy-fighting is now a viable street technique. So I watched in horror for several more minutes, as these folks flailed away at one another (I got the impression, from watching, that several of these folks were just in for their first lesson, before signing up--and that they had never held a knife before in their lives...even to chop fruit.), slashing and cutting with all of the abandon of a Benihana chef on quaaludes. Then, this warmup finished, Mt. Fuji proceeds to show his class how to disarm a knife-wielding attacker...by...wait for it...you got it! GRABBING THE KNIFE. You know, the old "Clap your hands on either side of the knife and twist it off-line" gag. When I picked my jaw up, off of the ground, next to my eyes, I watched him demonstrate (several times, as his assistant/assailant had a disturbing difficulty in attacking him precisely on the line that he could grab the knife from...) this move. "This man is creating casualties," I said to myself, "Or corpses." EEK. I couldn't stand it. Yet, like a train wreck, I found myself unable to tear away. I must've stood there for ten or fifteen minutes, watching the last of that class. I considered approaching him afterwards, but thought better of it. After, in its own way, Martial Arts is like Politics or Religion. As far as the real zealots go, 98% of the time, you won't change their mind about their beliefs...the other 2% won't listen, either, because they're too busy trying to make you change your mind about YOUR beliefs...!! Kal __________________ If ignorance is bliss, why does stupidity hurt me so?!?

June 20, 2002, 11:27 PM	#4
ATeaM Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2001 Posts: 601	Bad Muay Thai I went into a MT gym on a trip, it wasn't that their training was bad (which it was) but the place was plastered in biblical quotes. They forgot to mention in their advertisement that they were a church group. A hardcore born again church group. To each his own, I like my ass woopin and religion in separate servings.

June 21, 2002, 12:08 AM	#5
LawDog Staff Emeritus Join Date: September 15, 1999 Location: Where am I going? Why am I in this handbasket? Posts: 4,194	Co-worker of mine waxes enthusiastic about this aikido school he's going to. Insists that some friends and I just have to come and learn at the feet of this sensei. I'm curious and I'm always up to learning something new. So co-worker and I and one of my buddies load up one evening and drive 200 miles to this class. I've seen at lot of unarmed combat instructors, but this guy was the first one I've ever met who wheezed when he talked. And I guarantee you that he's never missed a meal. And most of them were baked cheese or something. And he's got this Martial Arts Death God thing going. Folks, I completely understand and agree with the requirement to show respect to the dojo and to the sensei, but I've this thing about grovelling. It's the stiff Scottish neck, or something. Can't do it. Anyhoo, sensei waits until the class has grovelled to his liking, then makes his Pronouncement for the Day and class begins. I guess. I think. He does a technique, and then gestures grandly to the class, and they try to imitate what he just did while he screams and wheezes at them. Seriously. I'm talking purple-in-the-face, veins-popping, dude-you're-gonna-have-a-coronary, slobber-slinging abuse at the top of his lungs. Well. Co-worker is flying around the dojo, banging his forehead off the mat every time sensei walks by and my buddy John and I are looking at each other with our eyebrows climbing into our hairlines and wondering if we've stumbled onto a secret Oriental S&M training camp, when sensei deigns to notice our presence. He stops the class(?), waddles up to us and asks what we think we know. John respectfully (never insult an S&M practioner in his own home) answers that we've studied kickboxing, some stick-and-knife stuff and a little bit of grappling. Sensei opines at the top of his lungs that he will teach us things [wheeze] about the knife that lesser arts [wheeze] will never know. Or things to that effect. Student is summoned, runs up, bangs his forehead on the mat, runs off, comes back, bangs his forehead on the mat (what is it with the forehead banging?) and sensei tells him to attack. Student stabs, sensei grabs his wrist, pulls him left, pulls him right, pulls him left again (I think), grabs the students face, student goes flying, all other students bang their foreheads on the mats. Very pretty. Sensei tells John to attack his senior student. John aks how the student would like him to attack. Sensei replies that the ki [wheeze] of the senior student will allow him to sense and [wheeze] react to any attack John could come up with. Sensei furthers instructs John to [wheeze] go full speed and to try to [wheeze] do his best, so that John will learn [wheeze] how much he has yet to learn. Or things to that effect. John shrugs, lunges into the student, slashes him twice across the chest, student grabs John's wrist, John twists his wrist loose, fires a thrust kick into the students tummy, steps to the right and slashes him twice across the side of the neck as he bends forward, then leaps back into a low guard. Standard streetfighting smash-and-slash attack. We're summarily ejected from the dojo. LawDog __________________ "The Father wove the skein of your life a long time ago. Go and hide in a hole if you wish, but you won't live one instant longer." --The 13th Warrior Bona na Croin The LawDog Files

June 21, 2002, 03:41 AM	#6
Skorzeny Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 1999 Posts: 1,938	LawDog: That's got to be the funniest Aikido dojo description I ever heard! "Forehead banging" (chuckles)... You just kill me. How about this? Aikido Shihan: Then you invite the attacker to grab your wrist... and then... Student: How do you invite the attacker to grab your wrist? Aikido Shihan: You project your Ki and extend your arm, thus inviting him to grab it. Student: (After trying his Ki on me) I can't do it. He (that's me) won't grab me. Aikido Shihan: (To student) your Ki is weak. Train further. (To me) you have bad spirit (huh?). You are dismissed for the day. Skorzeny __________________ For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

June 20, 2002, 09:57 PM	#3
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	That's what I'm talking about Kalindras. Now, come on people I know there are more stories out there. Please share them with us.

June 21, 2002, 10:59 AM	#8
Correia Senior Member Join Date: December 3, 1998 Location: SLC Utah Posts: 3,740	I took Kempo the whole time I was in college. I'm no great martial artist by any means, but I enjoy sparring, wrestling, and just generally getting smacked around. (Hey I grew up in the sticks, what else are the kids supposed to do?) Our instructor was laid back, and believed strongly in teaching only what he thought was practical. Nothing real flashy. But a really good basic class. Once a year we would compete in the local sparring tournament. It was Japanese point style, and I never really got into it, but I figured I would give it a try this year. There was a local karate dojo run by this enormous fat guy. I mean he was tubby. Not one of those big tough guys with a belly, but an obese tub of lard. His guys wore these Black uniforms with about 100 patches. They had twenty different color belts, and then stripes to go on them. Lots of flash. Lots of high kicking. General silliness. Well I win my first match. And in my second match I need to fight one of guys from the fat sensai's school. Well guess what, the fat guy is the judge. (keep in mind this is for points). We start, I charge the guy, and hit him in the head a bunch of times. He retreats straight back, and falls on his but on the way out of the ring. Result. I get penalized a point for lack of "control". We go again, he hits me with this little feeble backfist that could maybe have injured a toddler, I jabbed him in the nose and kicked him in the stomach, he falls down, holding his belly. Result. He gets a point for the back fist. I get nada. See he got me first. Ooookaaayy... At this point I'm getting pretty ticked off at the fat judge and starting to get angry. And the guy I'm sparring with is getting all shaky and jumpy. We come back for the third and final time, I pretty much just ditch any form of technique and just punch the dude in the headgear. Knock him silly. I was then disqualified for using to much force in point sparring. At the end of the tournament the guys in the black uniforms did really good in every match judged by their fat teacher, and got their butts kicked everywhere else. That was my first, last, and only attempt at point sparring. And here is the sad part. The university hired the fat dude to teach the official self defense class on campus. The one that all the girls would go to, to earn credit and hopefully learn how to defend themselves. Some of my friends took the class. Uggg. He taught the most ridiculous and complicated techniques I had ever seen. Things like wrist locks that had like six steps, and took ten seconds and a willing attacker to work. And the sad part is these people would come of the self defense class feeling like they were one of the Gracies or something.

June 21, 2002, 02:30 PM	#9
Halffast Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2000 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 525	What is it with fat black belts? Here is my story. Part of my requirements as a brown belt was to go to six outside schools and turn in a written report on each to my instructor. As I sometimes have the habit of putting things off until the last moment, (I think they call it "procrastination"....I'll look it up in the dictionary....tomorrow.) I had to scramble to get them all done. I found out about a class at a church from a friend of a friend and called the instructor to see if I could come observe his class. He said it was fine, and I showed up at the next class. When the instructor showed up (5 minutes late) he was 5'9" tall and weighed about 275. He only had a kids class and most of the kids were from poorer families. He told me that he was trying to instill confidence, respect, and self esteam in the kids.He said that he charged $1.00 and a Bible verse from each kid each night. He said that the dollar was optional but the Bible verse wasn't. It all sounded pretty good. Well he lined the kids up and didn't even stretch them out. They went right into techniques, and if one of them did something incorrectly, he didn't show them the proper way do do it. Instead he made them drop and do pushups. Anywhere from 25 to 200. There was a boy that kept dropping his back hand when he kicked, and after fat boy gave him pushups twice, he got a roll of duct tape and taped the kid's arms up. After class, I spoke with the instructor about his style and it's origins. He told me that his style was a combination of Goju, Kung fu, and Tae kwon do. He knew nothing of the history of any of these arts. I suspect that he never earned a black belt from any one school or style. He probably took a little here and a little there and made his own style up and went to the MA supply store and bought his belt. He claimed to be 4th dan. Maybe the level is determined by how many whole pies you can eat in a minute! Seriously, I am very leary of any black belt that looks like they can't run a mile in under 10 minutes. I find that the martial arts is much like the gun culture in that it attracts some of the best people and some of the worst. David __________________ If your looking to government for the solution, you obviously don't understand the problem. Shameless Personal Plug - Read "Lights Out" A SHTF Novel in progress, by me. Molon Labe!

June 21, 2002, 03:57 PM	#10
AdrenalineJunky Member Join Date: July 16, 2001 Location: Ukiah, CA Posts: 47	I had a less than desirable experience with an Aikido that is literally 300 feet from my front door. First, a little background. I've done Muay Thai off-and-on-and-off-and-on-again now for almost seven years. I'm twenty three now, and Muay Thai was my religion during my freshman and sophmore years of highschool. The class started to lose students, not because it was a bad class, but because it was a small community and many of the stdents had grown old enough to become "too cool" for "kickboxing." So, to bring you current, the knowledge is there, but the body ain't what it used to be. So, I began working as a bouncer at a local dance club, and thought I'd get a little defense oriented training to compliment my Thai experience. And this Aikido "dojo" was right at the end of my street...'cool,' I thought. First, I want to make something clear, this was a professional, well-structured class, taught by a few professional instructors, and I'm not knocking the class or the instructors. I took the class for a couple of months at a cost of $50 a month, which seemed reasonable. I found out that, not only do you have to be an "expert" (slightly exaggerated) in aikido to be able to apply it in a "street situation," but even then, it seems that 75% of it revolves around the stupidity of your opponent. During the last class I attended, the teacher (who seemed bragg enough to be noted, but not enough to annoy me) was talking about a fight that had happened a couple of years ago down at the club I bounce at. She (yes the teacher was a female--if you could call her that)was saying that one of the guys in the fight was a self-acclaimed blackbelt in somthing or other, and was kicking the crap out of the Cops who had come to break up the fight. Basically the story leads to her stepping in like Steven Segal, who actually frequented the dojo for a number of years while living in the area, and wrapping the guy up like a pretzel. Her story didn't seem 100% accurate, to say the least. So we started laying out scenarios, "what would you do if I did this" kinda thing. Over the course of the next ten minutes, I proceeded to demonstrate to the class, although probably not to the teacher, that a decent boxer or, in my case, Thai fighter, would run a decent aikido student through the cleaners. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the teacher, because she was AMAZING at aikido. She could really put the hurt on me...if I let her. I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the art, because I think aikido is a bad ass art (proly too many Steven Segal movies). It just seems like it's not for the street, at least not in and of itself, maybe mixed with boxing or something. Not quite on point with the rest of the posts, but I felt like sharing. Rant over. __________________ Work the ditches, beat the brush...and bang'em down!

June 22, 2002, 01:12 AM	#11
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	Keep Them Coming I'm laughing my ass off. It's like no matter what the style is: the size and wieght of the person teaching it is the same as well as possible mental disorders too. No matter where you go. Let's see how long we can keep this thread running. BTW this discussion is not just limited to Dojo's. If you have took any Defense Tactics or Officer Survival type training that seemed dubious, dangerous, or just out right stupid. Share your tale of woe here. We'd love to hear it.

June 22, 2002, 09:25 AM	#12
Toadlicker Member Join Date: June 22, 2002 Location: Hotlanta Posts: 37	Hi, guys! First post. Aikido has a lousy track record because most schools don't seem to teach that you need to HIT your opponent before you try to lock them up! An active, well-balanced attacker does not get grabbed and thrown easily. Digging a finger deep into an eyeball (theirs, hopefully) gives you the opportunity to bounce them off the concrete. Matt, your experience with hapkido reminds me of my own. 10 new wrist throws per belt, very little emphasis on punching, elbowing, kneeing, responses to the football tackle, etc. "Grab my wrist, punk! I dare you!"

June 22, 2002, 10:01 AM	#13
WhiteFox Junior Member Join Date: July 10, 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 10	The first poster has observed that many martial arts schools don't seem to measure up to their claims. And that is quite true and, unfortunately, the rule. Especially in the US, the land of the quick-fix mentality, martial arts schools are simply an extension of the consumer mentality and fill a need for most people who will never devote more than a month or two to ANY discipline except maybe watching TV. The rest of the comments demonstrate yet another unfortunate side of the fake martial arts mentality. Boasting and bragging with your friends I suppose is fun, but a pointless waste of time when it comes to improving your character. And then we have AJ, who at 23 already knows far more than any school can teach him. He has, after all, seen the light as a bouncer. Well, AJ, Mark the Animal's books will be of some comfort to you, then since his life as a bouncer is cleanly documented in his books and taught in his seminars. No doubt his methods are scary and effective and work wonders on the street. But unless our ultimate goal is to be the admiration of any street punk out there, I do believe there is more to be learned than how to take out some beligerent ******* you may encounter. In any case, the consumer-oriented schools fill a need and that is good. As always the real teachers are rarely found in the yellow pages and it is up to YOU to seek them out and get down to the hard work of learning what they have to offer.

June 22, 2002, 11:49 AM	#14
Toadlicker Member Join Date: June 22, 2002 Location: Hotlanta Posts: 37	Shame on us for thinking that there should be some martial in the martial arts...

June 22, 2002, 02:10 PM	#15
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	Ian, Missy says she would buy a book of your stories. Just something to ponder. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

June 24, 2002, 10:06 PM	#17
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	Point of this Forum- Just a friendly reminder. The point of this forum is not "My Art is Better than your Art", or "My style is Better than yours" The point of this forum is Humor. On each of our journeys to find a Martial Art to learn. We have each ran into the many fakes, frauds, charlatans, and mental patients abound in the field of Martial Arts, since it is very unregulated. I thought this would be a fun place to share our collective tales of Woe, Amazement, Stupidity, and Disbelief. We have all encountered at one time or another during our journey learning. I just wish I could've rephrased the Topic of this forum better in the begining when I started it. Now let's get back to laughing!!!

June 25, 2002, 05:13 PM	#18
kungfool Member Join Date: June 8, 2002 Location: heartland Posts: 76	I am a 4th degree blackbelt and I have owned my own taekwondo School for five years, as well as being an assistant instructor for 3 years before that. The problem with the martial arts industry is that it is unregulated. There is nothing in most communities to prevent "Jow Blow" with little or no martial arts training to open the "Joe Blow School of martial Arts." Also many times students become a 1st degree blackbelt, get a big head and want a school of their own before they have beeen properly taught how to instruct. So many times the chief instructor and even the owner of such a school will be lacking. I teach Taekwondo and "practical street self defense". Obviously, practical street self defense can cover almost anything. But taekwondo is taekwondo. I see some karate schools changed their names without changing their games when taekwondo became the most popular martial art in the world. Thirty years ago, you had to be tough just to make it through one class in taekwondo. Nowadays the bar has been lowered for white belts. this has been done both to bring in needed capital for the business, but more importantly so that people (especially children) did not have to be tough to begin training. But the bar for being a blackbelt, (giving leeway to elderly or disabled students) has not been lowered. However, there are many schools that just suck the money and sell the hype more than the tradition of martial arts. Sometimes I think those schools outnumber the legitimate schools. But there ARE good schools out there, you just have to know how to shop. For anyone who wishes me to list what to look for in good schools and bad) simply reply in kind and I will gladly list what to look for in detail.

June 26, 2002, 12:42 PM	#20
kungfool Member Join Date: June 8, 2002 Location: heartland Posts: 76	testing....testing.......(I'm a neophyte with problems signing on to this site....g

June 26, 2002, 04:42 PM	#21
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	I should have warned you, KF, that Taekwondo is sometimes looked upon with suspicion around here. Too many McDojos handing out black belts as door prizes. Though I might hasten to add that many arts have that problem, and if BJJ becomes as widespread and popular as TKD, it will probably have the same problems. Was reading the other day that Krav Maga dropped their belt system for this very reason. KM didn't have belts when it first hit these shores, and Lichtenfield (sp) grudgingly agreed to institute a system of belts to better "fit in" to existing systems here. After a couple of years, however, KM began to see schools popping up with students who didn't live up to their rankings. In addition, Lichtenfield decided there was too much pressure to move into competition, which he thought would dilute the combative aspects, so the belts were abandoned and there are no KM competitions to this day. All this is from a book, so I don't pretend to know how accurate it is, but it was interesting. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

June 26, 2002, 09:21 PM	#22
madgrad Member Join Date: July 19, 2001 Posts: 58	Hey Don, what book did you get that from? I'm interested in reading it.

June 27, 2002, 08:27 AM	#24
Don Gwinn Staff Emeritus Join Date: March 9, 2000 Location: Virden, IL Posts: 5,917	Madgrad, that's the good news. It's an ebook a guy hosts for free. Again, I can't vouch for the information contained therein, but if it's not good, you haven't paid for it. Can't beat that deal. http://www.angelfire.com/art/maa In addition to the book on KM, there's one on Aikido, which was the reason I checked it out, and couple of others. __________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Gwinn: Chicago Gun Rights Examiner

June 28, 2002, 12:44 PM	#25
kungfool Member Join Date: June 8, 2002 Location: heartland Posts: 76	Skorzeny.....................Sorry about not answering you sooner...I'm new to this forum stuff.... No 1 year blackbelts at my school......average time is 5 years....a couple have trained 5 days a week and made it in three.......But your point is a good one.....the reason for so many fake schools is that in the USA the martial arts industry is unregulated......there is nothing to stop "Joe Blow" form opening "Joe Blows school of martial arts' and teaching whatever joe blow wants to... many schools have unqualified instructors or instructors (even grandmasters) who have gotten greedy and are selling rank to make big profits. I even know of one school who "awards" blackbelts for 1 years attendance. They even only teach the kicks on one leg!....(I hope a student at least gets to choose which leg!) It is a big concern of mine. I have been working to change it as well as several other aspects i see as wrong in the idustry. You're question is a good one........I base my self-defense class on a few factors. First-hand experiences....I grew up in the slums ( a white boy in an all black city).....and learned the mentality of attackers as well as tried and true methods and the ability to dispel myths....(You may be surprised to know how mnay women still believe that a good kick to the groin will disable an attacker.) Though I am not ranked in it, I have studied Hapkido quite a bit and tested techniques to adapt them to people of all levels of abilities. I also address the emotional/psychological/legal implications. I also stresss basics over advanced techniques since a good command of the basics will get most people out of most confrontations and avoid injury. I do not mislead anyone and make them think that what I show them gives them anymore advantage than they would have if they don't practice them. Nor do I let them believe they can go out and take some bar brawler out in a single move. I cover many aspects of the realities of attack and self defense. I also take into account who I am teaching.....children......ladies......students....or civilians....different approaches must be used for the different classes. I agree with you about belt rankings.....I use them But i would rather not. However, American's (especially children) are proned to want to see an outward display of their progress.....(I have tied a white belt on my waist a couple of times just to show my students that the belt by itself means little. I also agree with you that BJJ will not fall to the same level of exploitism that TKD has. for the more reasons than any civilian would be aware of, (although I've seen Mcdogo's with ju-jitsu as well)....unfortunately it comes with the rise in popularity.