.327 Federal Club thread

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Gun World had a nice article on the 632 snubbie by Dr. Topper. I've shot with him at the NTI - good guy.

He was mentioning a Speer load - haven't seen that around locally. Anybody?

[Madcap_Magician]

I think I read that article, and I was super surprised to see that they had chrono'd that Pro Series 632 (The stainless one with the three-dot night sights and a 2-1/8" barrel, not the 3" barrel Carry Comp) at 1305 fps with the Speer GDHP 115-gr. load.

That's essentially the same as the 1350 it's supposed to do out of the 3" SP101... it is the new snubbie of my dreams.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I see that many Internet places have the Speer loads - just haven't seen it on the shelf here.

Marty talked about a 100 gr vs 115 gr load. Seems to have more power. I'll buy some and see!

[BillCA]

Gun makers listen to people's suggestions and desires. Somewhere some of them conduct surveys to determine what we thing are "good traits" (though I've never seen such a survey, let alone participate in one).

The bad news is that if only one or two people suggest something, the perception is that it's not "desirable" by many.

Thus I propose the following letter/e-mail campaign.

We write to S&W and ask them to produce ...
-- An lightweight 7-shot K-Frame, fixed sights, 3" (round butt) and 5" barrels (a la the Model 12)? Probably a scandium frame.
-- A new Model 16, 7-shot, K-frame, adj. sights, half-lug barrel like the Model 19 in 4", 6" and 7.5" for target and hunting sports.
-- A lightweight six-shot J-frame .327 with adj. sights with a 4" or 5" barrel for hiking/packing into the hills.

S&W already has the 632 in 2 flavors (2" and 3"). A 3-inch K-frame carry gun and a light 5-inch "trail gun" would fill some nice niches. The Model 16 could return yet again, moving from .32 H&R to .327, but sporting a half-underlug to look similar to the Model 19 giving it a distinction amongst the Model 16's. A lightweight 6-shot J-frame with a longer barrel and adjustable sights for a "kit gun" or hiking companion would be sweet too.


Ruger gets letters asking for...
-- A 3" LCR in .327 if it is feasible
-- A 3" fixed sight, round-butt, 7-shot version, perhaps based on the Speed Six or something similar in size.
-- A .327 chambering in the Single-Six

The LCR is available in .357, however the .327 Federal operates even beyond the 35,000 psi of the .357 magnum. So the real question is whether the LCR can handle 40-42,000 psi. A .327 Single Six is a no brainer and the sooner Ruger realizes it'll sell the better. The GP-100 is a fine platform, but they could resurrect the slightly more svelte Speed Six platform for the .327 with 7-shots and have a great mid-size carry gun.

Anyone else up for writing letters?

[FrankenMauser]

I've shot the 115 gr Gold Dot factory load (2 boxes, at least). Several local shops stock it. It's a bit of a let down. They just don't get enough juice out of the round, compared to the 100 gr American Eagle load.

I keep the 115s in my GP100 as an SD load, but they don't have the same "wow" factor as the AE stuff.

Somewhere, in the previous 24 pages, I posted chrono numbers from the 5.5" Blackhawk.

Side note: Send hate mail to Sportsman's Warehouse. They are anti-.327 ammo. They'll sell the revolvers all day long, but don't stock a single factory load; online, or in stores.

[farmboy]

That frustrates me to no end as well. Our local SW is great for all kinds of outdoorsy stuff, with a great gun inventory and prices, but their .327 ammo availability kinda sucks…..

[Sevens]

I think for an e-mail campaign to work, we'd almost need some kind of a robotic piece of software to to do. If we get even a couple handfuls of people to write a note and they all hit a manufacturer in a 2-3 period, it'll look like a "campaign" or worse, it'll look like one crazy guy who has control over a slew of different e-mail accounts. What we need are multiple e-mails from many people, re-written and re-worded and re-sent every month or so. Something that hits them over and over again, from different directions, so it actually occurs to them that there is demand for it.

Even still, there is a realist in me that knows what I like and want but can easily see that it likely doesn't make fiscal sense for these manufacturers to do it (necessarily). I'm not a bean counter and I don't have an intimate account of the kind of overhead there is in manufacturing to introduce a new product.

We are a small group. If you added up the grand total of every man, woman and child on earth that has ever actually purchased a .327 Magnum chambered handgun in the history of time... it would probably be about one week's worth of 9mm handgun sales here in this country.

[Sevens]

It is not often that we have a new revolver cartridge to get fired up about but the .327 Magnum is the most important mainstream cartridge offering since the .44 Magnum for serious revolver nuts.

...From the website of Bowen Classic Arms. Yes, the folks that did the fine work on Hammer It's sweet-16.

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/work...agnumCartridge

These guys may be our "Ace in the Hole." Now I knew that they did the work on that cat-killin' Model 16, but it wasn't until this evening when I was reading a recent copy of American Handgunner magazine with an article written by Hamilton Bowen that I caught a glimpse of this gorgeous K-frame. The article was terrific, though it had *zero* to do with the .327 Federal Magnum. (it was about eyes, eyesight and aging) But the photo was slipped in there with no words whatsoever about what it was or the story behind it.

So I visited his site and I've got to say... they've done one FINE job on this website. You feel like you are talking to gun guys and good guys when you peruse this website. They've also got a great site builder... it's a slew of eye candy and the website is executed as smoothly as a Bowen revolver.

As cool as the website is... it's not nearly as cool as this revolver:

Smith & Wesson M617 .22 barrels and cylinders are still available and were applied to this .M66.

Now just go and tell Smith & Wesson to make this!

[Low Friction]

On the Bowen site they say they use 617 barrels and cylinders along with an M66 frame to build that 327 sweetness. Aren't 617's 10 shooters? Did 617's come as 6 shots in the past?

It looks like a fine piece. Might just give them a call!

[gak]

BillCA and others, you have a great idea on an email/letter campaign. While we're on this topic, Ruger does have a "Tell the CEO" or some such link...and it appears they actually read it and, at least occasionally, act (positively) on the requests. I know they've gotten quite a few .327 Single Six requests. The .32 H&R Single Six has been out of "regular" production for a long time now, (and the 8-shot BH on the market two years now). It may be about time--from their marketing perspective--for re-introducing the SS .32 in the .327. Sure didn't hear any murmerings in reports from SHOT though.

[FrankenMauser]

On the Bowen site they say they use 617 barrels and cylinders along with an M66 frame to build that 327 sweetness. Aren't 617's 10 shooters? Did 617's come as 6 shots in the past?

Only the cylinder dictates how many times it will index. The action doesn't care if it is stuffed with a 5-shot, 6-shot, 9-shot, or 11-shot cylinder. (One of the reasons Ruger can make all of their .327s in "non-standard" increased cartridge capacities, without charging a premium.)

For Bowen-class performance, you can do a little fine tuning to the hand; but it isn't required.

[Low Friction]

What I was thinking was that a 10 shot cylinder would not easily work for a 327 conversion into an M66 frame. Bowen did note they might manufacture their own cylinders for conversions and continue to source 617 barrels from S&W. Perhaps they could build a 7 hole for these conversions?

Very nice piece of work whichever way they go.

[FrankenMauser]

What I was thinking was that a 10 shot cylinder would not easily work for a 327 conversion into an M66 frame. Bowen did note they might manufacture their own cylinders for conversions and continue to source 617 barrels from S&W. Perhaps they could build a 7 hole for these conversions?

They probably could. But, I believe they are just using their standard fluted cylinders. If that's the case, they only have 5-shot and 6-shot versions to choose from.

[KyJim]

I made a quick scan of the Gun World article referred to above. I was pretty much liking everything I read up until the author mentioned his water jug test with the 100 gr. Speer Gold Dots. They only traveled 11 inches and expanded to .53 inches. Another round (don't remember which) went 12 inches but only the Gold Dot seemed to expand reasonably well.

To me, 11 inches in water seems shallow. I've seen theoretical conversion from water to ballistic gel but don't know the formula. Does anybody know how this translates to ballistic gel?

[FrankenMauser]

A non-scientific, general "rule", is to divide water penetration by 2, for ballistic gel equivalency.

[KyJim]

A non-scientific, general "rule", is to divide water penetration by 2, for ballistic gel equivalency.

Which makes 11 or 12 inches of water penetration pretty pathetic.

[kcub]

I like .32s and I wouldn't buy it.

Why? Too good a chance it will fail and you won't find ammo.

Here's what they should have done.

A .30 carbine snub that uses full moon clips.

Corbon even makes a .30 carbine dpx load.

[Sevens]

Take it from those of us who know...
.30 Carbine in a revolver is not for the mainstream, Joe Lunchbox, Ruger target audience.

.30 Carbine in a revolver is for a hobbyist. Though I enjoy mine, it's a bit of a PITA.

The .327 Federal, however, is shockingly close ballisitically to .30 Carbine. It's pretty much .30 Carbine without the troublesome taper, with a bullet that is four-thousandths larger, and a rim on the case... which is precisely what you want in a revolver.

[kcub]

And that 327 ammo is going to be as hard to find as 32 H&R mag whereas there are 6 million carbines out there.

My old model blackhawk is one hole accurate in 30 carbine. You avoid this whole chicken and egg ammo sales/marketing problem.

[FrankenMauser]

And that 327 ammo is going to be as hard to find as 32 H&R mag whereas there are 6 million carbines out there.

My old model blackhawk is one hole accurate in 30 carbine. You avoid this whole chicken and egg ammo sales/marketing problem.

Over the last few years, I have collected enough brass to be happy with my stash of .327 (and .32 H&R/.32 S&W Long/.32 S&W/.32 Auto). If I had to, I could make it last 30+ years. Otherwise, I am fully prepared to be placing an order with a custom brass manufacturer for 500-1,000 cases, some time in the future. I don't expect to, but I am prepared to.

Primers and powder are used in other cartridges, as well. Bullets, I can cast or swage. It's just the brass, that I need. I can't make it myself (yet... ).

But... that doesn't matter. The .327 still seems to be holding its own.
The introduction of .327 Federal has even caused an increase in popularity of .32 H&R, and prodded some rules modification for Cowboy Action shooters. It's still doing good things.

[BillCA]

Here's what they should have done.

A .30 carbine snub that uses full moon clips.

Corbon even makes a .30 carbine dpx load.

I'll respectfully disagree with you here.

The .30 Carbine round is a fairly good performer if you give it an 18" barrel.
Then it produces 1900 fps and gets you 882 ft-lbs at the muzzle. As a rifle, it's puny. As a handgun cartridge it wastes energy in muzzle flash (and a deafening report). As a carbine, it does okay. I happen to think the M1 Carbine is a good choice for home defense because it's small, light, nimble, powerful enough and can be used one-handed.

However, the .327 simply outperforms the .30 Carbine.
Out of a 3-inch barrel the 100-115 grain loads spec out to 1400 (435 ft-lbs) and 1330 (452 ft-lbs)fps respectively. That's equivalent to a hot 9mm or lower end .357 load. But if we put the .327 Magnum into an 18" barrel, the 100 & 115 grain loads produce much more horsepower. The 100gr load hits 2150 fps (1026 ft-lbs) and 1880 fps (903 ft-lbs).

In an 8" barrel, the .327 hits 1900 fps using American Eagle 100gr loads. No doubt with a little time, we'll see handloaders pushing 2000 fps from an 7.5-8" barrel as experience is gained.

Yes, I'm sure you can beat that with handloads in a Blackhawk. But allow the .327 community to work up similar loads for the BH or GP-100 and the gap will be narrow.

In a short barrel, the .327 is much more efficient than the .30 carbine because it uses faster powder. There is a lot of interest in the .327 in longer barrels -- 5½ to 7½" cowboy guns to 16" and 18" lever rifles. I think we'll eventually see "high-speed" or "rifle" bullets made for hunting with the .327 in a rifle where the JHP/JSP opens slower than the self-defense handgun bullet.

[KyJim]

Keep in mind that the .30 Carbine was adopted by the military for use by troops who would otherwise be carrying a handgun -- transportation units, artillery units, etc. They wanted something more accurate at short to intermediate distances -- 100 to 150 yards. For various reasons, it ended up seeing quite a bit of front line action as well.

So, you are talking about a pistol cartridge duplicating the performance of a carbine/rifle cartridge that was designed to replace a pistol cartridge. All rather circular.

[jimbob86]

A .30 carbine snub that uses full moon clips.

A fine tool if the goal is to deafen both parties and set the attacker's clothing afire...... as bill pointed out, the .327 is a better round from a 3" barrel than the .30 Carbine.

[Sevens]

We all know the .30 Carbine's reputation as a LOUD round, especially from a handgun. That likely comes from it's 40,000 PSI max.

Thing is... the .327 Federal runs a case that's damn near as long as the Carbine... non tapered... with a hair-slight larger diameter... similar weight bullet of damn near same diameter... and runs handloads using the SAME powders effectively... but with a SAAMI established maximum pressure that is 5,000 PSI higher than is the .30 Carbine.

We have the great BBTI website to show us inch-by-inch chrono data from 18 inches down to 1 inch for .327 Federal Mag... but we don't have that same data for .30 Carbine unless someone here has that data table and they aren't sharing.

If nearly every dimension of the round is so much the same... but the .30 Carb runs a lower max pressure... how is it that the .327 isn't going to be LOUDER, with MORE of a fireball?! And how is the .327 going to blister past the performance of the .30 Carb in a 3-inch barrel simply because the .30 Carb was designed for a rifle?

In the end, it's crazy to re-introduce all the problems inherent to running a tapered, rimless case in a revolver when we've got a great new straight wall rimmed revolver case to do it...

But I think it's pure discussion folly to try and paint any picture that calls the performance of these two (at least in muzzle velocity, bullet weight and kinetic energy) different.

I just don't see them being much different. 5,000 more PSI gives a slight nod to .327 Federal... maybe .30 Carb makes that up with a smidge more case length.

What the .327 Federal has going for it in a head-to-head comparo is that it's using purpose-built pistol bullets while the .30 Carb is forever stuck with like two or three styles of tiny rifle slugs, all of which have no bullet technology newer than the 1960s behind them. It has that and a case rim that makes it work properly in a revolver with none of the hassles that .30 Carb introduces to a revolver.

Even still, this is a fun conversation.

[Buckeye!]

I don't own a .327 handgun...But I used to own a H&R Model R37 in 32 H&R Mag....Like the one pictured.....I know that the 327 is much more powerful...but the Little H&R was simply a hoot !! I loved that revolver..shot alot of 32 longs.. and a few boxes of 32 H&R out of it ..a buddy and loaded me a box or so of 32 H&R Mag. with LSWC ..I think the weight was 110gr. ???

I landed a job while in school as a security guard at a large construction site..the Boss told me to show up" heeled" ..My first choice of carry was my dads Model 10 S&W 3inch barrel (he pruned it) but he said heck no ..so I loaded the Model R37 up with some of those LSWC hand loads and off I went..I carried that gun on that Job the entire time ..felt perfectly armed.....for over a year...till a fellow on the site swapped me a Japanese copy of a Colt Detective in 38 Spl. all I had to do was throw in 20.00 ( a days pay) ...

If I can scrounge a little money aside I'd like to get a revolver in the 327 ..

I think it would make a superior SD gun..