Powder Charge Doesn't Fit in Brass - Page 2

Jerry45 · April 2, 2013, 05:28 PM

I just went into the shop because I was sure I could get more than 40 gr. of IMR 4064 in my 308 case. Nosler and F.C. will hold over 49.gr. without tapping to settle the powder. If I tap the cases I can get right at 50. gr. of IMR 4064 in them. I wish I had Some Winchester to compare but I don't. I'm still sure Winchester will hold well over 40 grs. of 4064. Now before someone says my scale is off I used two scales, a Dillon electronic and RCBS Load Master. They are the scales I use for my loading. I was using an RCBS funnel and not tube feed the powder.

TATER · April 2, 2013, 05:30 PM

Na. If it were a heavy pan, you would fall short, never mind, that would not be it.

mehavey · April 2, 2013, 05:40 PM

Something is wrong here if 40gr fills the case:

foxc57 · April 2, 2013, 06:13 PM

Is your electronic scale is set for grains and not grams?

Brian Pfleuger · April 2, 2013, 06:44 PM

Quote:

147 grain pan?? that seems heavy... But I don't have an electronic dispenser.
OK, Is that the Pan that came with the scale as you did not (Have to) re-zero after the pan was replaced?

The pan on an RCBS Chargemaster weighs 165.5gr.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mehavey

Something is wrong here if 40gr fills the case:

Note that he said "already up into the neck", it's not "full".

Quote:

Originally Posted by foxc57

Is your electronic scale is set for grains and not grams?

40 grams of powder would 600 grains.

Jerry45 · April 2, 2013, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

The pan on an RCBS Chargemaster weighs 165.5gr.

My scale must be reading correctly.

mehavey · April 2, 2013, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mehavey
Something is wrong here if 40gr fills the case.

Note that he said "already up into the neck", it's not "full".

Brian,

A full/44gr load barely reaches the bottom of the shoulder
If the OP's 40gr reached higher than that, something's wrong.

Also FWIW: My ChargeMaster Pan has weighed 67.9 - 68.0gr for that last 6 years
... not anything close to ~150gr as mentioned earlier. Are we discussing different
ChargeMasters ?

dagger dog · April 2, 2013, 07:56 PM

Is the powder out of a known good can,bottle with an absolute known source ? If yes then you might want to check it against another batch.

grickards · April 2, 2013, 08:26 PM

Pathdoc, cgaengineer.: I opened my second bottle of IMR 4064. It looks the same as the first. Of course, I got them at the same time so that probably doesn't prove it is IMR 4064.

Brian Pfleuger · April 2, 2013, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Also FWIW: My ChargeMaster Pan has weighed 67.9 - 68.0gr for that last 6 years
... not anything close to ~150gr as mentioned earlier. Are we discussing different
ChargeMasters ?

The pan on my Chargemaster looks nothing like yours. The old pans were plastic, as I understand, and the new ones are stainless steel. Mine weighs 165.5gr.

Grickards,

Fill a .308 case with 4064 and dump it in your pan. Tell us what it weighs.

Jerry45 · April 2, 2013, 09:46 PM

Pan weighs 165.5 gr.

TATER · April 2, 2013, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Fill a .308 case with 4064 and dump it in your pan. Tell us what it weighs.

50.2 Grains. here, using just a Old RCBS funnel and a plastic spoon.

swampy308 · April 2, 2013, 11:50 PM

I load 44.5 gr of IMR-4064 in my 308 with Winchester cases and dose not even reach the sholder.

cvc944 · April 3, 2013, 07:02 AM

Grickards,

If your cases aren't fouled inside with something that is reducing the internal volume, you must have a scale issue. I would weigh against a balance-beam scale now and do that regularly here forth. The Ohaus 10-10 sits on my bench and I use it to make sure my Lyman DPS 1200 electronic scale doesn't start giving false readings. When mine started to last year, I quickly caught it, followed Lyman's customer service directions to de-static it, and then everything was fine. Your issue may be the same thing.

Palmetto-Pride · April 3, 2013, 11:46 AM

Seems odd that it would weigh other items correctly, but not the powder he's trying to weigh.

Maybe he lives where there's less gravity than normal, that would explain it because the volume of the powder is remaining unchanged per what the scale says the amount per grain should be.........lol

Jerry45 · April 3, 2013, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Palmetto-Pride

Maybe he lives where there's less gravity than normal, that would explain it

Evidently you missed the memo. There is no such thing as gravity. The world just sucks. The higher you get (that cold be in altitude or on substances) the less the sucking effect.

**Unclenick** · April 3, 2013, 12:50 PM

I suspect this is a non-problem. I just went down into my man-cave and weighed 2.590 grams, flashing to 2.591 grams (39.97 grains, flashing to 39.99 grains) of IMR 4064 out on the lab scale. I placed it in a brand new Remington case (168.32 grains brass weight) and poured the powder gradually in. It came right up to the bottom of the neck.

While not widely mentioned, powder lots have bulk density tolerance. Only Accurate publishes theirs. For Accurate 4895 and Accurate 4064 it is ±3%. If the IMR product has the same bulk density tolerance, then there could be 6% disagreement on case fill among members posting in this thread, and that's only with identical cases. Change the case capacity to a larger Winchester or Hornady case and maybe use a small base die to resize one before measuring, and bingo, these factors can combine with bulk density difference to make what looks like the level for 44 grains in one case look like 40 grains does in another.

If you are unsure, call Hodgdon and describe the matter and ask if they have the bulk density for your lot of 4064 available or if they know how much it varies in the IMR product. They may or may not tell you, but they can probably verify whether or not you have any reason for concern. If they can tell you, then just plug the flash hole on one of your cases and weigh it and zero the scale. Fill the case with water level to where the powder was and weigh that combination to see how much water weight you added. Multiply that water weight by the bulk density number in grams/cc to see how much powder weight would be represented by that number and to verify it's not very different from what the Hodgdon number tells you to expect.

F. Guffey · April 3, 2013, 07:00 PM

Then there is the chance when using electronic scales there is confusion when deciding if the load is grains and or grams. I have an Ohaus 10-10 that came with two beams, one in grains and the other in grams, as luck would have it the case would not hold the powder.

F. Guffey

grickards · April 4, 2013, 12:16 PM

I found a tiny styrofoam ball under the load plate. It was apparently moving around and acting as a negative thumb on the scale at times. Thanks for all your help.

Brian Pfleuger · April 4, 2013, 12:32 PM

Strange that it would act only when you're weighing powder and have all the check weights and bullets be weighed correctly.

grickards · April 4, 2013, 01:07 PM

In looking back on it, I had used compressed air to blow off the scale after I did the powder weighings and before I did the coins. I discovered the styrofoam ball this morning. It may not be the culprit, but the scale is weighing some calibrated weights I borrowed just fine. Plus, why does it look so guilty? I have weighed out loads of the IMR 4064 and they now only fill the brass up to the bottom of the shoulder.

grubbylabs · April 4, 2013, 01:31 PM

I was thinking you had something going on with the scale the whole time while reading this. Like many others I load above what you were trying to get (43 grains) of both IMR 4064 and Varget and neither one goes above the shoulder. I have quite a few different cases and they all show about the same level.

cvc944 · April 4, 2013, 02:30 PM

Thanx for clearing it up for us. I knew it was the scale, just didn't know how it was the scale.

david_r · April 6, 2013, 02:05 AM

Glad to hear you found the problem. Next step. BUY A BEAM SCALE! Even a Lee safety scale will provide you with a fail-safe way to test your electronic scale immediately.

Mind telling us how much powder it was throwing when you thought it was working?

Brian Pfleuger · April 6, 2013, 10:19 AM

There is an extreme logical inconsistency with the OPs reports of the performance of his scale.

The OP reports that:

The scale calibrates correctly.

The scale weighs quarters within the expected range.

The scale weighs cases in the expected, plausible range.

The scale zeros on a case and then shows the case water capacity in the expected range.

The scale weighs bullets correctly, within 1/10th grain or less.

The scale does NOT weigh powder correctly.

From the information provided, it would seem that the scale is personally offended by gun powder and refuses to weigh it correctly.

There is more to this story.

April 2, 2013, 05:28 PM	#26
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	I just went into the shop because I was sure I could get more than 40 gr. of IMR 4064 in my 308 case. Nosler and F.C. will hold over 49.gr. without tapping to settle the powder. If I tap the cases I can get right at 50. gr. of IMR 4064 in them. I wish I had Some Winchester to compare but I don't. I'm still sure Winchester will hold well over 40 grs. of 4064. Now before someone says my scale is off I used two scales, a Dillon electronic and RCBS Load Master. They are the scales I use for my loading. I was using an RCBS funnel and not tube feed the powder. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; April 2, 2013 at 05:34 PM.

April 2, 2013, 05:30 PM	#27
TATER Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 963	Na. If it were a heavy pan, you would fall short, never mind, that would not be it. Last edited by TATER; April 2, 2013 at 05:35 PM.

April 2, 2013, 08:26 PM	#34
grickards Junior Member Join Date: April 1, 2013 Posts: 10	Powder doesn't fit Pathdoc, cgaengineer.: I opened my second bottle of IMR 4064. It looks the same as the first. Of course, I got them at the same time so that probably doesn't prove it is IMR 4064.

April 2, 2013, 09:46 PM	#36
Jerry45 Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2000 Location: Metairie, Louisiana Posts: 890	Pan weighs 165.5 gr. __________________ Guns are not dangerous! People are! RKBA! Last edited by Jerry45; April 2, 2013 at 09:54 PM.

April 3, 2013, 11:46 AM	#40
Palmetto-Pride Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2009 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 2,071	Seems odd that it would weigh other items correctly, but not the powder he's trying to weigh. Maybe he lives where there's less gravity than normal, that would explain it because the volume of the powder is remaining unchanged per what the scale says the amount per grain should be.........lol __________________ “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.” -Margaret Thatcher-

April 2, 2013, 05:40 PM	#28
mehavey Senior Member Join Date: June 17, 2010 Location: Virginia Posts: 6,885	Something is wrong here if 40gr fills the case:

April 2, 2013, 06:13 PM	#29
foxc57 Junior Member Join Date: August 19, 2008 Posts: 10	Is your electronic scale is set for grains and not grams?

April 2, 2013, 07:56 PM	#33
dagger dog Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Posts: 65	Is the powder out of a known good can,bottle with an absolute known source ? If yes then you might want to check it against another batch.

April 2, 2013, 11:50 PM	#38
swampy308 Member Join Date: May 16, 2009 Posts: 93	I load 44.5 gr of IMR-4064 in my 308 with Winchester cases and dose not even reach the sholder.

April 3, 2013, 07:02 AM	#39
cvc944 Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2013 Location: Lenhartsville, PA Posts: 164	Grickards, If your cases aren't fouled inside with something that is reducing the internal volume, you must have a scale issue. I would weigh against a balance-beam scale now and do that regularly here forth. The Ohaus 10-10 sits on my bench and I use it to make sure my Lyman DPS 1200 electronic scale doesn't start giving false readings. When mine started to last year, I quickly caught it, followed Lyman's customer service directions to de-static it, and then everything was fine. Your issue may be the same thing.

April 3, 2013, 12:50 PM	#42
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	I suspect this is a non-problem. I just went down into my man-cave and weighed 2.590 grams, flashing to 2.591 grams (39.97 grains, flashing to 39.99 grains) of IMR 4064 out on the lab scale. I placed it in a brand new Remington case (168.32 grains brass weight) and poured the powder gradually in. It came right up to the bottom of the neck. While not widely mentioned, powder lots have bulk density tolerance. Only Accurate publishes theirs. For Accurate 4895 and Accurate 4064 it is ±3%. If the IMR product has the same bulk density tolerance, then there could be 6% disagreement on case fill among members posting in this thread, and that's only with identical cases. Change the case capacity to a larger Winchester or Hornady case and maybe use a small base die to resize one before measuring, and bingo, these factors can combine with bulk density difference to make what looks like the level for 44 grains in one case look like 40 grains does in another. If you are unsure, call Hodgdon and describe the matter and ask if they have the bulk density for your lot of 4064 available or if they know how much it varies in the IMR product. They may or may not tell you, but they can probably verify whether or not you have any reason for concern. If they can tell you, then just plug the flash hole on one of your cases and weigh it and zero the scale. Fill the case with water level to where the powder was and weigh that combination to see how much water weight you added. Multiply that water weight by the bulk density number in grams/cc to see how much powder weight would be represented by that number and to verify it's not very different from what the Hodgdon number tells you to expect. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

April 3, 2013, 07:00 PM	#43
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Then there is the chance when using electronic scales there is confusion when deciding if the load is grains and or grams. I have an Ohaus 10-10 that came with two beams, one in grains and the other in grams, as luck would have it the case would not hold the powder. F. Guffey

April 4, 2013, 12:16 PM	#44
grickards Junior Member Join Date: April 1, 2013 Posts: 10	Solution I found a tiny styrofoam ball under the load plate. It was apparently moving around and acting as a negative thumb on the scale at times. Thanks for all your help.

April 4, 2013, 12:32 PM	#45
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	Strange that it would act only when you're weighing powder and have all the check weights and bullets be weighed correctly. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley

April 4, 2013, 01:07 PM	#46
grickards Junior Member Join Date: April 1, 2013 Posts: 10	Styrofoam ball In looking back on it, I had used compressed air to blow off the scale after I did the powder weighings and before I did the coins. I discovered the styrofoam ball this morning. It may not be the culprit, but the scale is weighing some calibrated weights I borrowed just fine. Plus, why does it look so guilty? I have weighed out loads of the IMR 4064 and they now only fill the brass up to the bottom of the shoulder.

April 4, 2013, 01:31 PM	#47
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	I was thinking you had something going on with the scale the whole time while reading this. Like many others I load above what you were trying to get (43 grains) of both IMR 4064 and Varget and neither one goes above the shoulder. I have quite a few different cases and they all show about the same level. __________________ * (Swinging club) Whack! whack! whack! * Nope, the old nag's still dead . (Capt Charlie)

April 4, 2013, 02:30 PM	#48
cvc944 Senior Member Join Date: March 17, 2013 Location: Lenhartsville, PA Posts: 164	Thanx for clearing it up for us. I knew it was the scale, just didn't know how it was the scale.

April 6, 2013, 02:05 AM	#49
david_r Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2013 Posts: 131	Glad to hear you found the problem. Next step. BUY A BEAM SCALE! Even a Lee safety scale will provide you with a fail-safe way to test your electronic scale immediately. Mind telling us how much powder it was throwing when you thought it was working?

April 6, 2013, 10:19 AM	#50
Brian Pfleuger Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 25, 2008 Location: Austin, CO Posts: 19,578	There is an extreme logical inconsistency with the OPs reports of the performance of his scale. The OP reports that: The scale calibrates correctly. The scale weighs quarters within the expected range. The scale weighs cases in the expected, plausible range. The scale zeros on a case and then shows the case water capacity in the expected range. The scale weighs bullets correctly, within 1/10th grain or less. The scale does NOT weigh powder correctly. From the information provided, it would seem that the scale is personally offended by gun powder and refuses to weigh it correctly. There is more to this story. __________________ Nobody plans to screw up their lives... ...they just don't plan not to. -Andy Stanley