New to this, in desperate need of opinions...(long post)

[GeekWithAGun]

My father has a mid 1970's era RCBS single stage reloading press that we are going to start using. He bought it in the early 80s and never used it, and now its my job to figure out how to use it, then teach him. The box everything was is also had a uniflow powder measure, a model (something)-5 beam scale, cartridge tray, powder funnel, primer feed accessory with two primer tubes, dies for 30-06 and 357 mag (I guess we have no use for these), Along with the press and accessories, there is a Lyman reloading handbook 45th edition with a 1970 copyright date.

I already have a list of additional hardware that we need, mostly correct dies, shell holders, and a case tumbler...but the real problem is with the "recipes"...

So...I've read the Lyman book and several pamphlets that were in the box, and I guess I've learned all I can without actually doing it. But I have some questions first.

1. I (mostly) shoot a S&W 410S. The .40 S&W cartridge wasn't around when this book was printed, so there are no "sample" loads for it. I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions on target loads particularly, and also for factory loads.

2. He shoots a Glock 26, and the sample loads that are in the book use powders that I don't see anywhere. (well, that's a lie, I only looked on midwayusa.com, and wideners.com since my local gunshop owner recommended them.)

The powders in the book are Unique, Bullseye, Herco, IMR, and RedDot. I thought RedDot was an optics manufacturer, and I've heard of Bullseye, but maybe I am thinking of some other kind of product. Bullseye, Herco and Unique come up only as sub-products of a company called Alliant, RedDot shows nothing. The only one to come up was IMR and I don't know anything about them.

Sorry for the long post, but that's about all I can think of right now. I'm sure I'll have more questions for you guys later, but for now I appreciate any help I can get.

-Drew

[zebulonsmith]

My recommendation would be to get a newer reloading manual to start with. Give it a read and look up some data. Don't buy large quantities of any components just yet.

Play around with different loads until you find a few that you like. Also, and I learned this the hard way, double and triple check everything you do before you move on to the next step. It's a lot easier to empty out a case and measure a new charge than it is to pull a bullet.

[Sevens]

Drew, punch up your browser to the powder makers.

There's Alliant Powders (used to be Hercules) and they make Bullseye, Red Dot, Herco, Unique and the like.

There's Accurate Powders, which makes AA#3, AA#5, AA#7 and AA#9 amongst others.

There's Hodgdon, which makes all the Hodgdon Powders (Titegroup, HP38 Universal, Trail Boss), and now markets all the Winchester (Win 231) and IMR (mostly by number) powders also.

Punch up any of these in to Google and they will provide data online shortly after you agree not to hold them liable for blowing up your pistol or your basement from their advice. It's all a couple of clicks away.

Take advice on techniques and pressure signs from the old Lyman manual, but SKIP all the data for now as long as you are a rookie. Data has changed over the years and the mix on some of the powders have evolved also. Not all old data is dangerous but some of it sure can be! But you are correct, there is no .40 S&W data in a 40-year manual.

Also, not to scare but simply to share-- .40 S&W is one of the very least forgiving calibers that anyone can reload for. High pressure cartridge, not much wiggle room with regards to case capacity and volume. Be careful with COAL's and bullet selection, start low and build toward max loads, don't EVER, EVER start with max loads.

Do your window shopping and your real shopping at Midway USA for a dozen or more reasons, it's a great place to buy.

Good luck and come back with more questions!

[mikenbarb]

+1 for the new reloading book and read the sticky at the top of the reloading forum page for reloading basics. It will give you a good starting point and put you in the rite direction.
PS- The kit you have sounds like an RCBS starter kit with proably a RS or RC press. The other items are great quality and will give you years of service if taken care of.

[DEDON45]

Definitely get an updated loading manual... my buddy had an old Sierra manual that listed way over max (by today's standards) Unique powder charges for the .45ACP... fortunately when he rattled off the charge he was trying I remembered what my circa 2007 manual had as max, and he never fired 'em.

Also, if you're new to reloading, get a copy of the ABC's of Reloading... it's a good book to have as well. That RCBS kit you have should work just fine.

[steve4102]

As already stated, you should get a New manual. Then read the front half that deals with the basics and how to of reloading.

You have me a little concerned when you refer to published load data as "sample loads". They are more than samples, they are list of fully pressure tested loads that should be followed. Do not go below the Mini and do not go above the Max and always "Start low and work up" looking for signs of pressure along the way.

Here is a few links to powder co load data.
http://accuratepowder.com/data/Accur...ublication.pdf

http://www.alliantpowder.com/

http://www.ramshot.com/powders/

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_...oguide2008.pdf

[Al Norris]

Originally Posted by Geek

dies for 30-06 and 357 mag (I guess we have no use for these)

Um, save those dies. You may not need them now, but in the future?

They can also be used to barter for components that you do use!

[GeekWithAGun]

Thank you everyone for the replies, especially the links. I've found tons of new info that's really helpful. Sorry for using the wrong terminology, I don't know where I read sample loads from, but I thought that was what was in the manual. I realize now that what I am looking for is factory duplicate loads and accuracy loads. I'm mainly looking for a clean burning powder, but I guess I'll have to look into how faster/slower burning powders affect things.

I'm definitely NOT looking for hot loads at all. Just for target practice. Now with the links, I have tons of loads to look into and try. When I asked some guys at my local range what was the difference between powders, they just laughed and asked me what motor oil I used, so I guess that answers my biggest fear/question. To be honest, before I started looking into this, I honestly thought that there were "recipes", meaning, take 1.5 grains of this, and add 2.7 grains of this, and mix with .3 grains of that. I'm relieved to see that it's at least a little easier than that.

Thanks again!

-Drew

[frank_1947]

That is the greatest nicname, GeekWithaGun GREAT one

[DWARREN123]

I shoot the 40 S&W and reload for it. I like 7.5gr of Longshot powder and any good 165gr or 180gr JHP bullets, I use the 7.5gr load for both weights. I like Magnus bullets (WWW.MIDSOUTHSHOOTERSSUPPLY.COM) and Rainier plated bullets (WWW.MIDWAYUSA.COM).
Go to the powder company and bullet company web sites and see what they say, they have loading data usually on their sites.

[tom234]

Sound like my first set up, 1970 manual, dies, & all else [that I still have].
The old Lyman manual still has good info on reloading steps that hasn't changed since. Pick a powder and bullet for your use and get load data from powder manufactures that Steve 4012 has provided.
As OAL is critical in .40 S&W it is often recommended to avoid 180 gr and heavier bullets. Be sure you have a firm crimp to avoid setback.
Save youself a lot of trouble and get a set of .40 S&W "carbide" dies. Lee dies are cheap and will work fine. The Deluxe 4 piece set that has the FCD and Midway sells them [on sale] for < $30.

[Unclenick]

GeekWithAGun,

I would not be taking any advice from those guys at the range. The difference between powders is more like the difference between 90W gear oil and a can of 3-in-1. You are on the right track with researching reloading.

In general, you will find good target loads come from small charges of faster powders in pistols. They will recoil less for a given level of bullet velocity produced and burn cleaner at lower pressures. The maximum velocity fast powders can safely produce at a given peak pressure is lower than the slow powders can produce at that same pressure. You just pay for the added performance with more recoil and usually more powder fouling unless the pressure is pretty high; and sometimes even then. Those are the tradeoffs.

[GeekWithAGun]

Unclenick -
I would not be taking any advice from those guys at the range.

Dually noted.

Unclenick -
In general, you will find good target loads come from small charges of faster powders in pistols.

The powder I'm looking at right now is Alliant Power Pistol(Alliant website). They give it a "relative quickness" burn rate of 58.6% (this is in relation to their fastest burning powder "Bullseye"). I was interrested in this powder because it is listed as a good choice for 9mm Luger AND 40 S&W. I'll be reloading both, so I was looking to find a powder appropriate for both cartridges. Maybe that's not the way to go about this? I think then that I'll look for two powders and just go from there.

*EDIT* Now I'm looking at the Bullseye powder(Alliant website), as I found loads for both the 40 S&W and the 9mm Luger, and since it's a fast burning powder, it should be what I'm looking for (I hope). */EDIT*

DWARREN123 -
Rainier plated bullets

That's exactly what I'm looking at now.

tom234 -
Be sure you have a firm crimp to avoid setback.

OK, now THAT statement has thrown me for a loop. The old manual (I know it's old and things change) says that many handgun cartridges are not crimped. (see bottom of image and blue box on right)



And looking at the factory cartridges I have, I can not see a crimp. I guess the only thing I don't get is the "headspace" issue. I thought that was the distance the bullet sits from the rifling when it's chambered? I guess I was really wrong? (OK, I just looked it up and stand corrected. Apparently headspace refers to the bullet base in relation to the bolt? I think?) Either way, these two pages of the same (old/outdated) manual tell me this: (look at second paragraph of page 228, and top half of page 229)




Phew! I think that's the end of research for tonight. I understand powders better, but now I'm not understanding a fundamental (headspace), so I guess I took one step forward and two steps back.

Thanks again for all the input, I can't tell you all how much I appreciate it.

-Drew

[tom234]

I'm certain the page 154 crimp note concerns "rolled" crimp not "tapered" crimp. You need a tapered crimp on semi-auto pistol cartridges. Rolled crimp is for revolver cartridges and some rifle cartridges that have a crimping groove for that purpose.
Unfortunately, I was mistaken; I have the Lyman 44th manual [1967] so I can't direct you to the proper discussion on tapered crimp. Your 9 MM and .40 S&W dies should be designed for tapered crimp.
Be careful starting out with Bullseye since the loads are small and unforgiving. A slower buring powder, like Unique, might be better at first.

[totalloser]

Be careful posting out of manuals. Your's might be old enough to not be copyright protected, but you could be sued, as can the forum. Just a FYI.

Definitely get a good book before fooling around. A good loading book is an absolute must, even after you acrue some experience.

Personally I am pretty happy with Accurate #5. I don't like to stock more stuff than I have to, and I load 9mm, .40 and .357 sig with the stuff. It is slowish burning, so it is more appropriate for heavier bullets. I load 124's in .357 and 9mm. You would get more loads with a faster burning powder as the charges will be smaller. It's REALLY handy to have a book when comparing loads.

.40 is pretty easy to load. I don't know about the touchiness of it, as it runs about the same pressure as 9mm. In the 3300 to 3500 psi range with .40 the higher. .357 sig on the other hand pushes 3900.

I use the Raniers in .40, but Remington MATCH GRADE HOLLOW POINTS in 9mm are almost the same price as Raniers. www.midwayusa.com

I believe headspace on bottleneck cartridges is the measurement from the base of the shell to the middle of the taper.

[totalloser]

Oops.

[DEDON45]

To the OP: The basic concepts of reloading are fairly constant: resize, prime, expand (if it's a straight-walled case), powder, seat bullet, crimp (if necessary). It's funny: my 7th edition Hornady manual uses the same graphics (dated, looks like it's from the 70's or 60's even) and text to explain how pressure, headspacing, etc. works in a cartridge as my 5th edition... the stuff that's new are the loads in the book (important), and some "advertising" for their newer presses, bullets, and other miscellaneous stuff.

As to your crimp question, here are some rules of thumb:

If you're using a bolt rifle, and want maximum accuracy, don't crimp at all... an exception to this would be if you are using a heavy-recoiling cartridge that would cause the bullets to be seated deeper in the case due to inertia or the tips hitting the front of the magazine. If you are crimping, use a bullet with a cannelure (a groove around the circumference of the bullet).

If you're using a lever rifle (or any rifle with a tube magazine), flat point bullets should be used, and good crimps as well... inertial can cause the tips of the bullets to contact the primer of the cartridge in front of it with enough force to set it off if you use a pointed bullet.

Revolvers generally use roll crimps on all rounds, in magnum guns HEAVY crimps are often required to prevent the other bullets from moving around in the case when under heavy recoil forces.

There are basically 2 types of crimp: Roll Crimp, and Taper Crimp. Some would argue that the Lee Factory crimp is a 3rd type; it kind of is, but consider it a roll crimp for the sake of this post (some like it, some see no need for it... in my experience it is no better or worse than a standard roll crimp). A roll crimp "rolls" the case neck into the cannelure of the bullet (take a look at any revolver round to see this). A taper crimp is normally not so much of a crimp as it is just eliminating the flare on the case mouth, pressing it even with the bullet. A lot of auto pistol cartridges that headspace on the case mouth utilize a taper crimp... examples are the 9MM, .40S&W, 10MM, and .45ACP.

Headspacing is a whole 'nother discussion... I definitely recommend either the ABC's of Reloading, or a newer manual (the Hornady manual does a good job on explaining Headspace) to get that down. It's not so critical in pistol rounds (these sort of take care of themselves, so long as the gun is within spec), but in rifles (bottle neck cartridges especially) it is very important to understand it. Headspace basically is a measurement of how well the completed cartridge (not bullet) fits the chamber of the gun. Cartridges (depending on what they are) can have their headspace determined by shoulder position, cartridge rim, case mouth, or belt (if equipped). Most bottleneck cartridges headspace off of the shoulder (it determines how deep in the chamber the completed round goes), in belted magnums it's sort of a mix.. it used to be the belt, but I'm hearing and seeing the shoulder being the key factor more and more. Auto pistol cartridges often headspace off of the case mouth... and rimmed cartridges (think .44Magnum, .357Magnum, .30-30, etc.) headspace off of the rim.

[mkl]

I would almost bet your old manual was written before carbide dies became available for straight-wall handgun cases.

The old steel dies in common use back then always put a sight taper on the straight wall case to give proper neck tension. A "taper crimp" was not required since the entire case had a very slight taper after resizing.

Carbide dies came along with a sizing "ring" that sized the case wall to one size which and did not taper the case like the old steel ones. The neck tension was solved by the "taper crimp die" which got the case wall holding the bullet back to dimensions similar to what was achieved with the old steel dies.

I doubt that taper crimp dies were available when your old manual was written. Roll crimps were used for rimmed cartridges such as the 38 Special, 357 Mag, 45 Colt, etc. For rimless cartridges, the standard procedure was to use the crimp shoulder in the die to just straighten out the bell you put in the case to ease in lead bullet seating. If jacketed bullets were used, the case mouth was not belled, and no crimp was needed since the case taper was already present because of the steel sizing die.

[Scorch]

GeekWithAGun-
I have that same loading manual!! It was one of the first ones I bought back in 1974 when I started reloading!! It sits on a shelf and I look at it every now and again (just for g&g), but the data in that manual is so old that it is no longer useful. Many of the loads are no longer safe due to changes in powder formulation, and many of the powders are no longer available. Get a new manual. Lyman just came out with the 49th edition of their manual.

For your 9mm and 40 S&W, try Alliant Power Pistol. It is a good powder and better suited to the cartridges you are trying to load than Bullseye.

[1911_freak]

DEFINATELY get a new manual!