old revolver identity?

brian33x51 · January 10, 2013, 06:21 PM

This revolver has no markings other than a stamped serial number (on the other side). It uses a fixed cylinder. Serial number is just over 1000.

http://imgur.com/lhjuR

James K · January 10, 2013, 08:25 PM

The gun appears to be a Belgian or Spanish copy of a generic British revolver. Check to see if there is an oval with the letters E L G on the back of the cylinder; that is the Liege, Belgium, proof mark.

Jim

madcratebuilder · January 11, 2013, 07:22 AM

Quote:

The gun appears to be a Belgian or Spanish copy of a generic British revolver.

+1

**Mike Irwin** · January 11, 2013, 08:32 AM

I'm thinking it's actually French, or a Belgian copy of a French revolver, and not a copy of a British revolver.

It doesn't have a top strap and, other than Colt, the French were about the only other makers who thought that a top strap was unnecessary on a revolver, primarily because they were, by far, the biggest adherents of the pinfire design, and it's very tough (but not impossible) to make a pinfire revolver with a topstrap.

Also, judging by the shape of the hammer and trigger, and the general location of the screws, it uses the Chamelot-Delvigne lockwork design, which the British pretty much never used, but which was used heavily in Continental Europe.

Jim Watson · January 11, 2013, 09:49 AM

I can't tell beyond generic European revolver.
Zhuk shows a few open top centerfires, this looks like the one he says "Probably made by Lefaucheux in Paris..." but then "...also made in Belgium."

It is missing its ejector rod. Those were exposed and flimsy compared to the enclosed Colt SAA rod.

**Mike Irwin** · January 11, 2013, 10:56 AM

It possibly didn't have an ejector rod. Some of the cheaper open tops didn't.

James K · January 11, 2013, 01:09 PM

"Generic European revolver" is about as close as we can come, at least without further information. As to value, those guns, in good condition and functional, sell for around $100, tops about $200.

I based my "English" comment on the shape of the grips and trigger guard, but the English didn't favor topless revolvers. (Page 3 is of course another story.)

The Spanish copied everything and many of the no-name guns in the catalogs and books are of Spanish origin.

Jim

brian33x51 · January 12, 2013, 07:30 PM

Thanks for all the replies, very educational. I'm asking for someone else (inherited pistol). After some more searching after posting this I sort of figured it was european, maybe french although I never found a match. Asking more questions the guy who had this spent a tour on the ground in vietnam confirming suspicions of being european or a european copy (if that's where he got it, that is). The serial number is stamped pretty solidly.

I'll pass on the question about markings on the cylinder.

Another shot of the other side.

http://imgur.com/KUQCo

PetahW · January 12, 2013, 08:35 PM

FWIW, IMO it looks exactly like a mutt German pinfire revolver, I once had.

.

**Mike Irwin** · January 13, 2013, 12:46 AM

I thought at first that it might be a pin fire, but I don't think that it is. The hammer shape is incorrect.

tater134 · January 13, 2013, 10:55 AM

Are there any proof marks on the gun anywhere? Are you able to take the cylinder out?

brian33x51 · January 14, 2013, 12:51 PM

Thanks! Currently at an empasse. Yes the owner did find an oval on the cylinder but couldn't read it due to eyesight and patina. And yes it appears the ejector rod is broken. I'll update when I get more info on the cylinder markings.

**Mike Irwin** · January 14, 2013, 10:56 PM

Both the French and Belgians used black powder proof marks with ovals surrounding letters and symbols.

Rainbow Demon · January 15, 2013, 12:56 AM

Probably a pinfire design adapted to center fire or rim fire cartridges.
Sort of like the Remington conversions of C&B revolvers to fixed ammunition.
That way they could use up parts and tooling leftover when the pinfire cartridge fell out of favor.

This pistol reminds me of a pinfire bought in quantity by the US during the Civil War. Despite sturdy construct in pinfire form the cartridge was so weak that as one trooper put it "you couldn't even kill a pig with it". He'd actually tried to kill a pig caught by foragers and emptying the pistol into it had no effect.
One artilleryman shot a Confederate officer in the head at point blank range and only knocked him out. The officer was wearing a hat to large for him so he had placed folded newspaper in the liner to get a better fit. The bullet cut through the hatband and was stopped by the folded paper. Aside from a concussion and large bruise the officer suffered no real injury.
The pinfire system took up a lot of space in the cartridge case so little room was left for the powder charge.

The basic design of several types of pinfire pistols were carried over into the centerfire designs, sometimes using very powerful centerfire cartridges like the massive Monte Negrin pistols that used a cartridge intended for carbines.

January 10, 2013, 06:21 PM	#1
brian33x51 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: Denver area Posts: 221	old revolver identity? This revolver has no markings other than a stamped serial number (on the other side). It uses a fixed cylinder. Serial number is just over 1000. http://imgur.com/lhjuR

January 11, 2013, 08:32 AM	#4
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I'm thinking it's actually French, or a Belgian copy of a French revolver, and not a copy of a British revolver. It doesn't have a top strap and, other than Colt, the French were about the only other makers who thought that a top strap was unnecessary on a revolver, primarily because they were, by far, the biggest adherents of the pinfire design, and it's very tough (but not impossible) to make a pinfire revolver with a topstrap. Also, judging by the shape of the hammer and trigger, and the general location of the screws, it uses the Chamelot-Delvigne lockwork design, which the British pretty much never used, but which was used heavily in Continental Europe. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 11, 2013, 10:56 AM	#6
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	It possibly didn't have an ejector rod. Some of the cheaper open tops didn't. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 12, 2013, 07:30 PM	#8
brian33x51 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: Denver area Posts: 221	Thanks for all the replies, very educational. I'm asking for someone else (inherited pistol). After some more searching after posting this I sort of figured it was european, maybe french although I never found a match. Asking more questions the guy who had this spent a tour on the ground in vietnam confirming suspicions of being european or a european copy (if that's where he got it, that is). The serial number is stamped pretty solidly. I'll pass on the question about markings on the cylinder. Another shot of the other side. http://imgur.com/KUQCo Last edited by brian33x51; January 12, 2013 at 07:42 PM.

January 13, 2013, 12:46 AM	#10
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	I thought at first that it might be a pin fire, but I don't think that it is. The hammer shape is incorrect. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 10, 2013, 08:25 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The gun appears to be a Belgian or Spanish copy of a generic British revolver. Check to see if there is an oval with the letters E L G on the back of the cylinder; that is the Liege, Belgium, proof mark. Jim

January 11, 2013, 09:49 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	I can't tell beyond generic European revolver. Zhuk shows a few open top centerfires, this looks like the one he says "Probably made by Lefaucheux in Paris..." but then "...also made in Belgium." It is missing its ejector rod. Those were exposed and flimsy compared to the enclosed Colt SAA rod.

January 11, 2013, 01:09 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"Generic European revolver" is about as close as we can come, at least without further information. As to value, those guns, in good condition and functional, sell for around $100, tops about $200. I based my "English" comment on the shape of the grips and trigger guard, but the English didn't favor topless revolvers. (Page 3 is of course another story.) The Spanish copied everything and many of the no-name guns in the catalogs and books are of Spanish origin. Jim

January 12, 2013, 08:35 PM	#9
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	FWIW, IMO it looks exactly like a mutt German pinfire revolver, I once had. .

January 13, 2013, 10:55 AM	#11
tater134 Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: NE,PA Posts: 390	Are there any proof marks on the gun anywhere? Are you able to take the cylinder out?

January 14, 2013, 12:51 PM	#12
brian33x51 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: Denver area Posts: 221	Thanks! Currently at an empasse. Yes the owner did find an oval on the cylinder but couldn't read it due to eyesight and patina. And yes it appears the ejector rod is broken. I'll update when I get more info on the cylinder markings.

January 14, 2013, 10:56 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Both the French and Belgians used black powder proof marks with ovals surrounding letters and symbols. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

January 15, 2013, 12:56 AM	#14
Rainbow Demon Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2012 Posts: 397	Probably a pinfire design adapted to center fire or rim fire cartridges. Sort of like the Remington conversions of C&B revolvers to fixed ammunition. That way they could use up parts and tooling leftover when the pinfire cartridge fell out of favor. This pistol reminds me of a pinfire bought in quantity by the US during the Civil War. Despite sturdy construct in pinfire form the cartridge was so weak that as one trooper put it "you couldn't even kill a pig with it". He'd actually tried to kill a pig caught by foragers and emptying the pistol into it had no effect. One artilleryman shot a Confederate officer in the head at point blank range and only knocked him out. The officer was wearing a hat to large for him so he had placed folded newspaper in the liner to get a better fit. The bullet cut through the hatband and was stopped by the folded paper. Aside from a concussion and large bruise the officer suffered no real injury. The pinfire system took up a lot of space in the cartridge case so little room was left for the powder charge. The basic design of several types of pinfire pistols were carried over into the centerfire designs, sometimes using very powerful centerfire cartridges like the massive Monte Negrin pistols that used a cartridge intended for carbines.