Real Life: Struggle at 2240

Spectre · March 11, 2001, 09:40 AM

The following happened about 2 months ago. I would ask KTOG members and friends who have heard the story not to "give it up"!

You, a friend, and your girlfriend are pulling into a Denny's (24 hour diner) a little before 11 PM. As you pull in, you see a man and a woman in an altercation across the street, in the parking lot of what appears to be a night club.

You have a cell phone and a "tactical" folder. Your GF is unarmed, and NOT an "asset". Your friend is a terrific shot, and is armed with a Kimber .45. There is a Glock 29 (Glocks are your preferred sidearm) in the middle console, and a scoped, loaded (of course!) HK 91 in the trunk.

As you watch, some blows are exchanged.

What do you do?

Jorah Lavin · March 11, 2001, 10:00 AM

Where is your tactical cell phone?

-J.

FPrice · March 11, 2001, 10:10 AM

Your first, and most likely ONLY action should be to call 911. Why?

What is going on? Do you know? Who is the aggressor? Who is the victim? Who else may be involved? What is going to happen if you, a strange civilian, try to interefere? How are you going to make something happen? Walk up with your gun drawn and start ordering people around?

A situation like this is best left to the authorities to come in, take control, and sort it out. I understand that this is the advice from one od the top trainers in the country. And it makes some sense. At least within the limited scenario as outlined.

Frosty
MOLON LABE

Spectre · March 11, 2001, 11:17 AM

"You have a cell phone..." I always have my cell with me.

Others?

traitorjack · March 11, 2001, 02:59 PM

KTALGSTO.

just kidding, a bad joke. seriously, I'd see about calling the club first, in case it's something they'd want to handle themselves. any number of plausible explanations could be formed which would somehow ensure No Good Deed Going Unpunished. (you call the police, it turns out to be a drug deal, and the supplier gets p*ssed at you for getting his product lost. blah blah blah.) you never know -- maybe while asking the Denny's people what the name of the club is (to look it up in the phone book) they tell you it's a theatre, and the two are actors doing a scene. etc.

failing the convenience of all that, I'd just call the police.

--alex.

M1911 · March 11, 2001, 09:28 PM

I'd immediately draw the black, tactical, cell phone, and the call the POlice. That's what I pay my taxes for; that's what their job is.

M1911

Spectre · March 12, 2001, 08:19 AM

I watched for a moment as I drew my cell phone. Keeping my eyes out, I moved the Glock 29 (concealed by the car) to my hip.

As more blows were exchanged, I called 911, and walked toward the street. As I neared the street, I paralleled, talking to the dispatcher (who had no clue where I was, despite me giving roads and landmarks).

In another minute, another male emerged from the car. It appeared that he and the first male were trying to force the woman into the car.

Spartacus trundled across the street. I thought he was headed straight into the fray, but instead, he came up a few yards behind the ruckus, and just ambled along past. He was back in another couple of minutes, with the tag #, as well as reporting that there was another female in the rear seat, who was smiling. As we watched, the fighting died down. Verdict: drunk people being stupid.

traitorjack · March 13, 2001, 01:03 AM

drunk people being stupid, eh? didn't think about that one.

good move, Spartacus getting the tag number. no harm done, no shots fired, a good night. time for denny's-waffles and a relieved, detailed what-if discussion.

stay safe, take care,

alex.

Spectre · March 13, 2001, 04:45 PM

And the cops never showed. Just reinforced a few things:

*Awareness will alert you to most situations in time to react.

*Don't expect the police to save you.

*If suddenly attacked, only weapons on your person are likely to be available.

Byron Quick · March 13, 2001, 05:54 PM

Yes, calling the cops is good. Though SCOTUS says that they occur no liability if they don't show. And they never did show. We all need to remember that. I crossed the street at an angle so that my path took me closer to the car but in such a way that I was never directly approaching the car. I never looked directly at them but could see them peripherally. My line of march took me about 15 yards behind the car where I patted my pockets, discovered I had left something I needed and reversed course. My new line took me close enough to the rear of the car to get the license number and to see closer what was happening. I never looked directly at them. Decided after viewing the totality that is was foolish drunks rather than a possible abduction and went to eat at Denny's. Weapons were never drawn by us. I didn't even consider drawing a weapon and I don't think Spectre did either. Even if I had decided it was necessary for someone's safety to directly confront these individuals I would not have drawn unless I felt that my life or someone ele's life was in danger.

Two things I'd do different now. One is to back the car into a parking space where I can stand by my trunk close to the HK91 (pop the trunk before I get out). The second thing I've done is begin carrying a small pair of 10X binoculars so I don't have to put on an act to get close to scope out possible goblins.

Gentlemen, saying things such as this is the business of the police is a nice, safe, "politically correct" response. However, all available units are often committed when a call comes through. Other times they are being directed by poorly trained dispatchers as seemed to be the case in this event. I am not prepared to watch something like this without acting if necessary. I do not intend ever to be in the position of reading the paper a few days later of the woman found dead in a trunk and have the sickening realization that the description of the car fits the one I ignored the other night while saying,"It's the police's job." In the days before cell phones, I walked into a stranger's house one night because of the horrible gurgling screams emanating from within. There I found an old man huddled in a chair with blood drooling from his mouth and pouring from his nose. I can still see in my mind's eye the big bubbles that formed of blood as he tried to breathe. His granddaughter's boyfriend had taken exception to the old man trying to stop her beating. Now the old man was receiving an attitude adjustment so he would know his place in the future. Boyfriend was furious when he realized a white stranger was behind him in the house. He calmed right down though when he got a good look down the barrel of a FN High Power.

At a party one night, one of our local he-men started beating his girlfriend. I'm not talking slapping, I'm talking full power blows with his fist. The first broke her nose. I didn't call the police-somebody else did. I stopped him.

Many of the dozens of people who listened to the protracted knife attack of Kitty Genovese called the police. The attack that took over one hour from start to finish. I wonder how many of those people were proud of their conduct?
I wonder what looking in the mirror has been like for them all these years? Have they been able to forget her screams and the fact they did nothing to save her but maybe call the police? I'll bet that is cold comfort to them when they try to sleep at night and awaken with her screams in their ears.

I might get hurt or killed trying to help someone. God knows I'm neither invulneralbe nor invincible. But I'll never have a night like theirs. I hope you never do.

Spectre · March 13, 2001, 06:12 PM

Amen.

gryphon · March 13, 2001, 06:48 PM

I concur with the other here. Calling the police if it gets physical is always the first choice. If it turned really ugly and weapons are pulled or if she starts yelling for help and a kidnapping situation looks evident, then that would be when action might take place. Very complex situation indeed...

Art Eatman · March 13, 2001, 08:44 PM

Assessment of a male-female confrontation is extremely difficult. A problem can be that by the time you get it figured out, she (more likely than he) is severely injured.

An LEO buddy of mine once walked up to a similar set-to. He grabbed the guy just after a serious hard blow to the woman's head. Turning the guy to put the cuffs on, he was attacked by the woman, who used her high-heeled shoe to work over his head...

Every incident is different, I guess; maybe once you've figured it out, you oughta step in. Carefully. Based on what I read in the papers, in most towns the domestic disputes are the most dangerous for LEOs and Good Samaritans.

Art

Byron Quick · March 13, 2001, 10:14 PM

Art, you bet they are and I was thinking just that while this was happening. I've been jumped by a woman in the emergency department who had just been beaten bloody by her boyfriend. All I was doing to her boyfriend was bearhugging him so he couldn't beat her again.

March 11, 2001, 10:00 AM	#2
Jorah Lavin Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 1999 Location: Indian Land, SC USA Posts: 593	R U Missing Something? Where is your tactical cell phone? -J.

March 11, 2001, 10:10 AM	#3
FPrice Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: People's Commonwealth of Massachusetts Posts: 1,456	Call 911 Your first, and most likely ONLY action should be to call 911. Why? What is going on? Do you know? Who is the aggressor? Who is the victim? Who else may be involved? What is going to happen if you, a strange civilian, try to interefere? How are you going to make something happen? Walk up with your gun drawn and start ordering people around? A situation like this is best left to the authorities to come in, take control, and sort it out. I understand that this is the advice from one od the top trainers in the country. And it makes some sense. At least within the limited scenario as outlined. Frosty MOLON LABE

March 11, 2001, 02:59 PM	#5
traitorjack Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2000 Posts: 132	KTALGSTO. just kidding, a bad joke. seriously, I'd see about calling the club first, in case it's something they'd want to handle themselves. any number of plausible explanations could be formed which would somehow ensure No Good Deed Going Unpunished. (you call the police, it turns out to be a drug deal, and the supplier gets pssed at you for getting his product lost. blah blah blah.) you never know -- maybe while asking the Denny's people what the name of the club is (to look it up in the phone book) they tell you it's a theatre, and the two are actors doing a scene. etc. failing the convenience of all that, I'd just call the police. --alex. __________________ "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." (Gandhi, an Autobiography*, M.K. Gandhi, 446)

March 13, 2001, 01:03 AM	#8
traitorjack Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2000 Posts: 132	drunk people being stupid, eh? didn't think about that one. good move, Spartacus getting the tag number. no harm done, no shots fired, a good night. time for denny's-waffles and a relieved, detailed what-if discussion. stay safe, take care, alex. __________________ "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." (Gandhi, an Autobiography, M.K. Gandhi, 446)

March 13, 2001, 06:48 PM	#12
gryphon Senior Member Join Date: November 21, 2000 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,069	I concur with the other here. Calling the police if it gets physical is always the first choice. If it turned really ugly and weapons are pulled or if she starts yelling for help and a kidnapping situation looks evident, then that would be when action might take place. Very complex situation indeed... __________________ Your suffering will be legendary, even in HELL!! --- PinHead, HellRaiser 2

March 11, 2001, 09:40 AM	#1
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	The following happened about 2 months ago. I would ask KTOG members and friends who have heard the story not to "give it up"! You, a friend, and your girlfriend are pulling into a Denny's (24 hour diner) a little before 11 PM. As you pull in, you see a man and a woman in an altercation across the street, in the parking lot of what appears to be a night club. You have a cell phone and a "tactical" folder. Your GF is unarmed, and NOT an "asset". Your friend is a terrific shot, and is armed with a Kimber .45. There is a Glock 29 (Glocks are your preferred sidearm) in the middle console, and a scoped, loaded (of course!) HK 91 in the trunk. As you watch, some blows are exchanged. What do you do?

March 11, 2001, 11:17 AM	#4
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	"You have a cell phone..." I always have my cell with me. Others?

March 11, 2001, 09:28 PM	#6
M1911 Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 2000 Posts: 4,055	I'd immediately draw the black, tactical, cell phone, and the call the POlice. That's what I pay my taxes for; that's what their job is. M1911

March 12, 2001, 08:19 AM	#7
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	I watched for a moment as I drew my cell phone. Keeping my eyes out, I moved the Glock 29 (concealed by the car) to my hip. As more blows were exchanged, I called 911, and walked toward the street. As I neared the street, I paralleled, talking to the dispatcher (who had no clue where I was, despite me giving roads and landmarks). In another minute, another male emerged from the car. It appeared that he and the first male were trying to force the woman into the car. Spartacus trundled across the street. I thought he was headed straight into the fray, but instead, he came up a few yards behind the ruckus, and just ambled along past. He was back in another couple of minutes, with the tag #, as well as reporting that there was another female in the rear seat, who was smiling. As we watched, the fighting died down. Verdict: drunk people being stupid.

March 13, 2001, 04:45 PM	#9
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	And the cops never showed. Just reinforced a few things: Awareness will alert you to most situations in time to react. Don't expect the police to save you. *If suddenly attacked, only weapons on your person are likely to be available.

March 13, 2001, 05:54 PM	#10
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	Yes, calling the cops is good. Though SCOTUS says that they occur no liability if they don't show. And they never did show. We all need to remember that. I crossed the street at an angle so that my path took me closer to the car but in such a way that I was never directly approaching the car. I never looked directly at them but could see them peripherally. My line of march took me about 15 yards behind the car where I patted my pockets, discovered I had left something I needed and reversed course. My new line took me close enough to the rear of the car to get the license number and to see closer what was happening. I never looked directly at them. Decided after viewing the totality that is was foolish drunks rather than a possible abduction and went to eat at Denny's. Weapons were never drawn by us. I didn't even consider drawing a weapon and I don't think Spectre did either. Even if I had decided it was necessary for someone's safety to directly confront these individuals I would not have drawn unless I felt that my life or someone ele's life was in danger. Two things I'd do different now. One is to back the car into a parking space where I can stand by my trunk close to the HK91 (pop the trunk before I get out). The second thing I've done is begin carrying a small pair of 10X binoculars so I don't have to put on an act to get close to scope out possible goblins. Gentlemen, saying things such as this is the business of the police is a nice, safe, "politically correct" response. However, all available units are often committed when a call comes through. Other times they are being directed by poorly trained dispatchers as seemed to be the case in this event. I am not prepared to watch something like this without acting if necessary. I do not intend ever to be in the position of reading the paper a few days later of the woman found dead in a trunk and have the sickening realization that the description of the car fits the one I ignored the other night while saying,"It's the police's job." In the days before cell phones, I walked into a stranger's house one night because of the horrible gurgling screams emanating from within. There I found an old man huddled in a chair with blood drooling from his mouth and pouring from his nose. I can still see in my mind's eye the big bubbles that formed of blood as he tried to breathe. His granddaughter's boyfriend had taken exception to the old man trying to stop her beating. Now the old man was receiving an attitude adjustment so he would know his place in the future. Boyfriend was furious when he realized a white stranger was behind him in the house. He calmed right down though when he got a good look down the barrel of a FN High Power. At a party one night, one of our local he-men started beating his girlfriend. I'm not talking slapping, I'm talking full power blows with his fist. The first broke her nose. I didn't call the police-somebody else did. I stopped him. Many of the dozens of people who listened to the protracted knife attack of Kitty Genovese called the police. The attack that took over one hour from start to finish. I wonder how many of those people were proud of their conduct? I wonder what looking in the mirror has been like for them all these years? Have they been able to forget her screams and the fact they did nothing to save her but maybe call the police? I'll bet that is cold comfort to them when they try to sleep at night and awaken with her screams in their ears. I might get hurt or killed trying to help someone. God knows I'm neither invulneralbe nor invincible. But I'll never have a night like theirs. I hope you never do.

March 13, 2001, 06:12 PM	#11
Spectre Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 23, 1998 Location: ATL Posts: 3,277	Amen.

March 13, 2001, 08:44 PM	#13
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Assessment of a male-female confrontation is extremely difficult. A problem can be that by the time you get it figured out, she (more likely than he) is severely injured. An LEO buddy of mine once walked up to a similar set-to. He grabbed the guy just after a serious hard blow to the woman's head. Turning the guy to put the cuffs on, he was attacked by the woman, who used her high-heeled shoe to work over his head... Every incident is different, I guess; maybe once you've figured it out, you oughta step in. Carefully. Based on what I read in the papers, in most towns the domestic disputes are the most dangerous for LEOs and Good Samaritans. Art

March 13, 2001, 10:14 PM	#14
Byron Quick Staff In Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Waynesboro, Georgia, USA Posts: 2,361	Art, you bet they are and I was thinking just that while this was happening. I've been jumped by a woman in the emergency department who had just been beaten bloody by her boyfriend. All I was doing to her boyfriend was bearhugging him so he couldn't beat her again.

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