I Guess I was Naive in Thinking that all Police Officers were Excellent Shots. - Page 2

Redneckrepairs · December 12, 2008, 02:45 PM

Police officers are as a rule not great shots , and for a lot of reasons . We gunnies see a lot of police work as being about the gun and that is simply not the case . You could as easily say that not all ( pick your service here ) army officers are not marksmen in spite of the fact they wear ( or may be issued ) a pistol . The pistol today ( as a symbol of the .gov ) is a " badge of office " never expected to be used . Cops go thro an extensive training program , little of which deals with such physical arts such as shooting a gun , or effecting an arrest on a non compliant suspect . The academy is pretty law and report centric . Unlike some on the left think , you dont learn how to shoot/arrest innocent folk , nor do you learn how to cover for them that do . In fact you spend more time on the bill of rights than you do on self defense . Folks quit kicking cops , as no matter your aim becoming one today you will learn about the courts , and report writing , not so much about guns or even unarmed scuffles such as they are . Cops here in the usa deal with paperwork more than pistols , and i personally thank my deity every day for this fact .

armsmaster270 · December 12, 2008, 02:50 PM

ERIK

I answered in post 4

Pbearperry · December 12, 2008, 03:03 PM

I think that the population as a whole really does not understand the relationship of the avarage cop and his gun.To him it's just one of many tools he may have to use while performing his duties.Yes it would be nice if each cop could shoot like Wild Bill Hickock,and yes it would be nice that he also had an IQ of 140 and it would be nice if he could run 26 miles and bench press 350 lbs.What I have just discribed was a super cop in a Hollywood movie,not what's out there on the streets.However thats not reality.
I am sure that people possessing all these qualities would laugh at a typical starting pay of 25 grand a year.That is why we have the people that we have on the cops job,they are just normal every day people willing to put the uniform on and and give it a go.Most cops will do 20-30 years or more on the job and never discharge their service guns even once.I think it is time we understand this and accept reality and stop watching TV and movies.

mega twin · December 12, 2008, 05:28 PM

Here in this area,a lot of the city police are younger people,with families, and a pretty low pay rate compared to some bigger cities. Most of them cannot afford to shoot alot on theier own dime.

David Armstrong · December 12, 2008, 07:26 PM

Quote:

On a related note, many military personnel home from the war would likely be surprised to find many firearms enthusiasts underwhelmed by their firearms related KSAs as well.

Exactly. I was at the range a while back and was watching a few guys give another one a hard time about how he was handling an AR---not real safe, never hit anything that way, let me show how to hold that, etc. After a while the guy had apparently had enough, and shut them up: "I've killed 12 men during houseclearing in Iraq doing it this way. How many gunfights have you won?" I hung around long enough to take the guy out for a beer and a burger after he was done shooting.

ActivShootr · December 12, 2008, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Here in this area,a lot of the city police are younger people,with families, and a pretty low pay rate compared to some bigger cities. Most of them cannot afford to shoot alot on theier own dime.

Same in this area. One of my dearest friends is le in a small town. He doesn't carry the issued 10mm so he is left to purchase his own practice and carry ammo.

alloy · December 12, 2008, 08:06 PM

i go to the range early when its empty, but at the range recently one morn was a correctional officer and his glock. much less than amazing with some lackluster safety skills to boot.
another morn early...a girl obviously being tutored in the timed drills for her police exam. not bad once the gun was out of the holster. she seemed determined.
but the guy with the shot timer doing that tutoring....uuuhhh, pretty dang good.

JohnH1963 · December 13, 2008, 01:12 AM

I would like to add some common sense to this thread.

There are many assorted factors and variables that we do not know. Did the officer work the night before and is now only operating on a little bit of sleep? Did the officer have a lot of coffee and sugar before the range and his hand is shaking a little bit? Did the officer have a fight with his wife and is simply not thinking right? Did the officer work out with weights and his arm is sore and he is having a problem steadying his arm? etc etc. There are many physical factors that can effect a person's aim.

T. O'Heir · December 13, 2008, 01:39 AM

"...To most LEO's the sidearm is just another piece of gear to carry around..." Exactly. That's why most of 'em like Glocks.
The days of cop recruits being shooters are long gone. Having a degree is far more important these days. Knew a guy(a buddy's older brother) who got assigned to the 'bank car', long, long ago. (30 plus years ago.) The 'bank car' was the only one with a pump shotgun. Neither the guy I knew nor his partner knew how to load it.
Most of 'em have never seen a real firearm of any kind prior to their training, such as it is. Most of 'em don't shoot recreationally or ever shoot their service piece except for their annual, as a minimum, qualification either.
Used to shoot in an ISU league. Bullseye. Some cops team guys would show up with their service revolver(I did say, long ago). No adjustable sights and they weren't allowed to have a trigger job done. We wiped the floor with them regularly. Good bunch of guys, for the most part, though.
"...compared to some bigger cities..." Up here, in London, Ontario, a copper with some TI is making 69 grand per annum. The PD budget is $83 million Cdn. Most of which goes to pay checks. Not all of that is cop pay checks though. The clerks and typists are over paid too.
Police Cadets, in Toronto, are paid 50 grand to start. No experience. No training. The TO cop budget is half a billion.

U.S.SFC_RET · December 13, 2008, 08:10 AM

I have nothing but respect for the boys in blue for the most part. It is a calling. To protect and to serve means that they are serving their community. I thank them every chance I get. It is a stressful job and frequently they get no thanks for it.

I have met wonderful LEOs who gave me pointers that literally blew my mind when it came to pistol training and shooting. I will never forget it.

We know of the ones who come in just for an 8 hour a day shift.

God bless em.

Kreyzhorse · December 13, 2008, 01:18 PM

I don't believe that LEO are marksmen as it were. They do have to pass a shooting test but again, its not to prove they are marksmen, but they are competent with their sidearm.

As a sidenote, I was at the range when a LEO recruit and in instructor showed up and took the lane next to mine. I stop to reload and then hear the instructor tell her "Nice job, each one hit the fair wall that time. Don't even worry about hitting the target, just focus on the wall at the end of the range each time."

For her next mag, I watched and sure enough, she was just shooting at the far wall. At that point, I figured if she was struggling to hit the wall, that it was in my best interest to leave the range before I had a hole where I didn't want one.

**JohnKSa** · December 13, 2008, 01:38 PM

One of the reasons that the .45 Auto got such a good reputation in LE is because it was not a typical issue weapon. Even where they were allowed they usually had to be purchased by the officer. That meant that only the "gunny" cops carried them. You know, the officers who were actually likely to practice on their own time and their own $$ to become proficient.

It should come as no surprise, then, that cops carrying .45 Autos seemed to have much better "luck" in shootouts--and a smaller surprise that cops who didn't want to practice and police chiefs who didn't want to pay for practice hours & practice ammunition were more than ready to point to caliber as the reason for that success.

Brian Pfleuger · December 13, 2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

That meant that only the "gunny" cops carried them. You know, the officers who were actually likely to practice on their own time and their own $$ to become proficient.

That's an interesting point. I would have never thought of that.

armedandsafe · December 13, 2008, 05:16 PM

It is interesting that LawDog had a thought (somewhat) about this general subject today.

http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2...ing-power.html

Pops

AUG · December 13, 2008, 08:58 PM

I would take five random cops against five random members of a gun related message board any day on the range.

ActivShootr · December 13, 2008, 09:45 PM

Can I pick the five?

nemoaz · December 13, 2008, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Police officers are as a rule not great shots .

My agency, as a rule, wins every competition we go to. So, I'm guessing your rule isn't really a rule.

I would say as a rule, most guys on the internet spend more time on the internet imagining themselves to be tactical operator ninjas than actually doing anything.

Brian Pfleuger · December 13, 2008, 10:24 PM

Quote:

So, I'm guessing your rule isn't really a rule.

Rules are, as a rule, not all inclusive.

Quote:

My agency, as a rule, wins every competition we go to.

None of your opponents fall into the "not great shots" rule?

Quote:

most guys on the internet spend more time on the internet imagining themselves to be tactical operator ninjas than actually doing anything.

Welcome to the party. That's what we're here for.

tshadow6 · December 13, 2008, 10:30 PM

Not all LEOs like to shoot. At my agency, if 10 officers show up for a range practice day, that's a lot. Same old exuses, don't want to get dirty, no time, the range is too far, etc... Personally, I take a vacation day to use the range when I can. Others only shoot once a year in order to qualify.

Swampghost · December 13, 2008, 10:48 PM

I liked JohnH1963's opening line.

It brings to question; How many LEO's have done previous duty where they were being shot at? IMHO a war vet should react entirely different from an academy grad.

My experience on this predates my military duty, I'll elaborate if required.

Sarge · December 13, 2008, 10:57 PM

Some of us are actually quite serious about our skill at arms.

Some of us serious folks are also trainers, with the ability to both impart and require a pretty decent skill level to those in our charge.

James K · December 13, 2008, 11:07 PM

I concede that Armsmaster may be correct about his department, but out in the rest of the world, there are a lot of cops who can't hit the proverbial barn door. An indoor range I know of allowed police to shoot there as a department program. They shot up the floors, the A/C ducts, the walls, in fact darned near everything but the targets. One even fired a shot that missed his own foot by an inch. And these were not green recruits, but officers who had been on the force for years. They simply could not shoot!

Sure, departments have pistol teams and they are often very good. But darned few use the service pistol and a few good shots out of a large department don't mean much. (Plus they are usually long service types who are no longer "on the streeet".)

I do not expect a cop to be a world class target shooter, but the gun is a tool of the trade and I do expect him or her to be competent in its use. It is as if I were to hire a carpenter and see him miss nails and smash his thumb with a hammer; I would hire someone else since a workman who cannot learn to use the tools of his trade is not only not worth hiring but is a danger to himself and others. That goes even more so for an armed police officer.

Jim

David Armstrong · December 14, 2008, 01:26 AM

I would like to point out that in the midst of all this "cops can't shoot" discussion, one factor is being left out...they also don't lose many gunfights.

HKFan9 · December 14, 2008, 02:48 AM

Last time I was at the range and some of the local LEO's showed up the guy standing next to me went to high school with me, and was arrested for drugs a bunch of times, and always getting in trouble. He couldn't shoot to save his own life it seemed, but people want me to depend my life on him and his buddies?

JohnH1963 · December 14, 2008, 03:49 AM

There are so many different factors in being a good shot. A young academy grad might be better then the experienced miltary vet.

One reason, which most do not want to admit, is simply age. Grab a book off the shelf and hold it in front of you for 60 seconds. Hold your arms up completely straight for 60 seconds. Do you notice any shaking at all?

Next, look into the distance and try to read some small letters off of something. Is your vision all that great?

A younger police officer in his 20s might just be a better shot then the experienced mature officer. As we get older, we get slower, our vision fades and we simply cant hold objects as steady as we once could. Our reaction time fades.

Officers deal with this problem through powerful unions. In other non-unionized professions, such problems would be taken care of through write-ups for perceived performance issues and then followed by a carefully orchestrated firing. Police have it lucky. They can get older with grace and style and have a union to watch over them protecting them from hawkish administrators wanting to pull the trigger over such a natural event like aging. I digress...

December 12, 2008, 02:50 PM	#27
armsmaster270 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: California Posts: 1,951	ERIK I answered in post 4 __________________ http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S.

December 12, 2008, 03:03 PM	#28
Pbearperry Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 283	cops and guns I think that the population as a whole really does not understand the relationship of the avarage cop and his gun.To him it's just one of many tools he may have to use while performing his duties.Yes it would be nice if each cop could shoot like Wild Bill Hickock,and yes it would be nice that he also had an IQ of 140 and it would be nice if he could run 26 miles and bench press 350 lbs.What I have just discribed was a super cop in a Hollywood movie,not what's out there on the streets.However thats not reality. I am sure that people possessing all these qualities would laugh at a typical starting pay of 25 grand a year.That is why we have the people that we have on the cops job,they are just normal every day people willing to put the uniform on and and give it a go.Most cops will do 20-30 years or more on the job and never discharge their service guns even once.I think it is time we understand this and accept reality and stop watching TV and movies.

December 13, 2008, 01:39 AM	#34
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...To most LEO's the sidearm is just another piece of gear to carry around..." Exactly. That's why most of 'em like Glocks. The days of cop recruits being shooters are long gone. Having a degree is far more important these days. Knew a guy(a buddy's older brother) who got assigned to the 'bank car', long, long ago. (30 plus years ago.) The 'bank car' was the only one with a pump shotgun. Neither the guy I knew nor his partner knew how to load it. Most of 'em have never seen a real firearm of any kind prior to their training, such as it is. Most of 'em don't shoot recreationally or ever shoot their service piece except for their annual, as a minimum, qualification either. Used to shoot in an ISU league. Bullseye. Some cops team guys would show up with their service revolver(I did say, long ago). No adjustable sights and they weren't allowed to have a trigger job done. We wiped the floor with them regularly. Good bunch of guys, for the most part, though. "...compared to some bigger cities..." Up here, in London, Ontario, a copper with some TI is making 69 grand per annum. The PD budget is $83 million Cdn. Most of which goes to pay checks. Not all of that is cop pay checks though. The clerks and typists are over paid too. Police Cadets, in Toronto, are paid 50 grand to start. No experience. No training. The TO cop budget is half a billion. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

December 13, 2008, 08:10 AM	#35
U.S.SFC_RET Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Location: The Old line State Posts: 282	I have nothing but respect for the boys in blue for the most part. It is a calling. To protect and to serve means that they are serving their community. I thank them every chance I get. It is a stressful job and frequently they get no thanks for it. I have met wonderful LEOs who gave me pointers that literally blew my mind when it came to pistol training and shooting. I will never forget it. We know of the ones who come in just for an 8 hour a day shift. God bless em. __________________ 1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded. 2. Never point a firearm at anything you do not intend to shoot. 3. Keep the finger off the trigger and firearm on safe until ready to shoot. 4. Know the target and what's beyond it.

December 13, 2008, 01:18 PM	#36
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	I don't believe that LEO are marksmen as it were. They do have to pass a shooting test but again, its not to prove they are marksmen, but they are competent with their sidearm. As a sidenote, I was at the range when a LEO recruit and in instructor showed up and took the lane next to mine. I stop to reload and then hear the instructor tell her "Nice job, each one hit the fair wall that time. Don't even worry about hitting the target, just focus on the wall at the end of the range each time." For her next mag, I watched and sure enough, she was just shooting at the far wall. At that point, I figured if she was struggling to hit the wall, that it was in my best interest to leave the range before I had a hole where I didn't want one. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

December 12, 2008, 02:45 PM	#26
Redneckrepairs Senior Member Join Date: March 9, 2006 Posts: 666	Police officers are as a rule not great shots , and for a lot of reasons . We gunnies see a lot of police work as being about the gun and that is simply not the case . You could as easily say that not all ( pick your service here ) army officers are not marksmen in spite of the fact they wear ( or may be issued ) a pistol . The pistol today ( as a symbol of the .gov ) is a " badge of office " never expected to be used . Cops go thro an extensive training program , little of which deals with such physical arts such as shooting a gun , or effecting an arrest on a non compliant suspect . The academy is pretty law and report centric . Unlike some on the left think , you dont learn how to shoot/arrest innocent folk , nor do you learn how to cover for them that do . In fact you spend more time on the bill of rights than you do on self defense . Folks quit kicking cops , as no matter your aim becoming one today you will learn about the courts , and report writing , not so much about guns or even unarmed scuffles such as they are . Cops here in the usa deal with paperwork more than pistols , and i personally thank my deity every day for this fact .

December 12, 2008, 05:28 PM	#29
mega twin Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2006 Posts: 434	Here in this area,a lot of the city police are younger people,with families, and a pretty low pay rate compared to some bigger cities. Most of them cannot afford to shoot alot on theier own dime.

December 13, 2008, 01:12 AM	#33
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	I would like to add some common sense to this thread. There are many assorted factors and variables that we do not know. Did the officer work the night before and is now only operating on a little bit of sleep? Did the officer have a lot of coffee and sugar before the range and his hand is shaking a little bit? Did the officer have a fight with his wife and is simply not thinking right? Did the officer work out with weights and his arm is sore and he is having a problem steadying his arm? etc etc. There are many physical factors that can effect a person's aim.

December 13, 2008, 01:38 PM	#37
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,992	One of the reasons that the .45 Auto got such a good reputation in LE is because it was not a typical issue weapon. Even where they were allowed they usually had to be purchased by the officer. That meant that only the "gunny" cops carried them. You know, the officers who were actually likely to practice on their own time and their own $$ to become proficient. It should come as no surprise, then, that cops carrying .45 Autos seemed to have much better "luck" in shootouts--and a smaller surprise that cops who didn't want to practice and police chiefs who didn't want to pay for practice hours & practice ammunition were more than ready to point to caliber as the reason for that success. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

December 13, 2008, 05:16 PM	#39
armedandsafe Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2005 Location: Moses Lake WA Posts: 1,001	It is interesting that LawDog had a thought (somewhat) about this general subject today. http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2...ing-power.html Pops __________________ Armed and Safe: Not just a theory If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up. Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."

December 13, 2008, 08:58 PM	#40
AUG Senior Member Join Date: March 3, 2000 Location: East TN Posts: 434	I would take five random cops against five random members of a gun related message board any day on the range.

December 13, 2008, 09:45 PM	#41
ActivShootr Senior Member Join Date: August 15, 2007 Posts: 1,040	Can I pick the five?

December 13, 2008, 10:30 PM	#44
tshadow6 Senior Member Join Date: June 26, 2005 Posts: 619	Cops and shooting Not all LEOs like to shoot. At my agency, if 10 officers show up for a range practice day, that's a lot. Same old exuses, don't want to get dirty, no time, the range is too far, etc... Personally, I take a vacation day to use the range when I can. Others only shoot once a year in order to qualify.

December 13, 2008, 10:48 PM	#45
Swampghost Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: Florida, east coast Posts: 2,106	I liked JohnH1963's opening line. It brings to question; How many LEO's have done previous duty where they were being shot at? IMHO a war vet should react entirely different from an academy grad. My experience on this predates my military duty, I'll elaborate if required. __________________ NRA Patron Member

December 13, 2008, 10:57 PM	#46
Sarge Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2002 Location: MO Posts: 5,457	Some of us are actually quite serious about our skill at arms. Some of us serious folks are also trainers, with the ability to both impart and require a pretty decent skill level to those in our charge. __________________ People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.

December 13, 2008, 11:07 PM	#47
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	I concede that Armsmaster may be correct about his department, but out in the rest of the world, there are a lot of cops who can't hit the proverbial barn door. An indoor range I know of allowed police to shoot there as a department program. They shot up the floors, the A/C ducts, the walls, in fact darned near everything but the targets. One even fired a shot that missed his own foot by an inch. And these were not green recruits, but officers who had been on the force for years. They simply could not shoot! Sure, departments have pistol teams and they are often very good. But darned few use the service pistol and a few good shots out of a large department don't mean much. (Plus they are usually long service types who are no longer "on the streeet".) I do not expect a cop to be a world class target shooter, but the gun is a tool of the trade and I do expect him or her to be competent in its use. It is as if I were to hire a carpenter and see him miss nails and smash his thumb with a hammer; I would hire someone else since a workman who cannot learn to use the tools of his trade is not only not worth hiring but is a danger to himself and others. That goes even more so for an armed police officer. Jim

December 14, 2008, 01:26 AM	#48
David Armstrong Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2005 Location: SW Louisiana Posts: 2,289	I would like to point out that in the midst of all this "cops can't shoot" discussion, one factor is being left out...they also don't lose many gunfights.

December 14, 2008, 02:48 AM	#49
HKFan9 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2008 Posts: 3,057	Last time I was at the range and some of the local LEO's showed up the guy standing next to me went to high school with me, and was arrested for drugs a bunch of times, and always getting in trouble. He couldn't shoot to save his own life it seemed, but people want me to depend my life on him and his buddies?

December 14, 2008, 03:49 AM	#50
JohnH1963 Junior member Join Date: October 22, 2008 Posts: 416	There are so many different factors in being a good shot. A young academy grad might be better then the experienced miltary vet. One reason, which most do not want to admit, is simply age. Grab a book off the shelf and hold it in front of you for 60 seconds. Hold your arms up completely straight for 60 seconds. Do you notice any shaking at all? Next, look into the distance and try to read some small letters off of something. Is your vision all that great? A younger police officer in his 20s might just be a better shot then the experienced mature officer. As we get older, we get slower, our vision fades and we simply cant hold objects as steady as we once could. Our reaction time fades. Officers deal with this problem through powerful unions. In other non-unionized professions, such problems would be taken care of through write-ups for perceived performance issues and then followed by a carefully orchestrated firing. Police have it lucky. They can get older with grace and style and have a union to watch over them protecting them from hawkish administrators wanting to pull the trigger over such a natural event like aging. I digress...