Assitance on a .460 Magnum load

[Sevens]

Gun: S&W 460XVR with the 8-3/8" barrel
Bullet: Hornady 240gr XTP-Mag
Powder: Alliant Power Pro 300-MP

I have made loads with Alliant 2400 and they work great. Made some slightly beefier loads with Accurate#9 and they work fine also. Consistent 1,900 FPS.

Here's where I am stuck...
Both of those powders are slightly faster burning than H110/W296 which seems to be the "go to" powder for this cartridge. I don't have any H110/W296 and I have no intentions of buying any. I'm not a fan of the stuff.

I do have Alliant Power Pro 300-MP. Every bit of information I have tracked down confirms a couple of things:
1) regardless of what anyone *thinks* (especially a long-published magazine gunscribe), this powder simply is -NOT- a re-branded H110/W296. It is NOT.

2) 300-MP seems to be a tiny bit slower on the burn rate scale.

3) 300-MP is typically used in EVERY place where H110/W296 is used. Slightly heavier charge weight... as is to be expected for a slightly slower powder.

Alliant's published loads are also NOT helpful. The lightest bullet they show is a 260gr Speer and the max load for that slug is a full TWO GRAINS lighter than their own published data for a 300gr Speer Gold Dot. And then they list a 300gr Gold Dot that runs a max charge weight a full TEN GRAINS less than their same weight Gold Dot. ?!

I can't make sense of Alliant's published data and an e-mail to them was of zero assistance. They told me they developed data for Speer bullets. Everything about Alliant's web-based data source just sucks.
............


I've been handloading, experimenting and safely developing handloads with phenomenal success since the late 80's. I feel quite comfortable in this ballgame with safe, traditional and astute load development. However, in this particular case... I'm working with a 65k PSI Max in a revolver, so I'm hoping for a little help.

Hodgdon suggests 45.0 to 48.5gr (Max) of H110 under this slug in .460 Magnum. Their max load suggests 52,100 PSI Max, which sure sounds nice and safe in a cartridge that SAAMI has set for a 65k PSI Max.

SURELY there must be solid way to determine at least an IDEA of where a max load might be using Alliant Power Pro 300-MP.

And FWIW, I realize that many will flip the usual and easily anticipated "why why why" and the "get a bigger gun" and "what on Earth would you need that power for" and "...any animal on the planet..." and "...if the other loads worked, why try and make THIS one" and all of those absolute gems. Those seem to be great stress relief for folks that can't offer help so please have fun delivering them. But if you are genuinely curious, it is a simple combination of "wants" that has me fishing for this solution:

I bought the revolver for the fun of the shock and the awe. On Sunday, it was a lot of fun to see my 240gr slug slap in to a 12" steel plate at a ranged 375 yards. Took me many shots to walk that in... iron sights are, ahem, imprecise at that distance. Ballistics calculator estimates that it took 0.92 seconds for that slug to make contact and it hit the plate at a bit over 900 fps.

Basically, this revolver will hit like a .45 Hardball from a 5-inch barrel... except that it delivers 10 more grains of bullet weight and it makes that hit -500- yards away.

I want to have fun with this revolver and I have 7+ pounds of 300-MP and everything that I can figure tells me that 300-MP is PERFECT for this cartridge.

[Road_Clam]

Well, sorry I can't help with your 300-MP dilemma , but I can tell you there seems to be quite a bit of "lacking" data with many of the Alliant powders. Very sporadic availability also seems to be the norm, I bought 8# of 2000MR because nothing else was abailable back during the powder scare , worked up some awesome loads in .308 and heavy .223 and then 2000MR just disappeared from the shelves... ? Still cannot find this powder. This all being said I tend to frown on Alliant powders. BTW from one 460XVR owner to another... enjoy that 460 cannon... Here's mine :



I handload as well, but I stick with H110 , Lil Gun , and WST (for my light cowboy loads)

[BoogieMan]

Would love to help. But I use h110 under 300gr hornady. It's a handful.

[Sevens]

Haha, I am not saying that I totally refuse to go H110, but I'm about 98% totally refusing to go H110!

[Doyle]

I've seen loads for that bullet with VV-N110 up to the mid 1700's and Ramshot Enforcer a little faster.

http://www.loaddata.com/members/sear...etallicID=7444

[Sevens]

Thanks, however... that link doesn't guve charge weights for non-members. And no loads using 300-MP. And I can eclipse 1,900 with AA#9.

I will get where I want to be, but it seems odd to me that I may be the first guy on the web to get there.

[Gdawgs]

I love loading for this caliber as well, it's a lot of fun.

I avoid all of the newer Aliant powders for this very reason. Their load data on their website is next to useless.

Hopefully Lyman will be coming out with their next edition soon and will include all the new powders that have come onto the market since the 49th.

[TimSr]

Alliant's published loads are also NOT helpful. The lightest bullet they show is a 260gr Speer and the max load for that slug is a full TWO GRAINS lighter than their own published data for a 300gr Speer Gold Dot. And then they list a 300gr Gold Dot that runs a max charge weight a full TEN GRAINS less than their same weight Gold Dot. ?!

I can shed some light on the why's of this. Standard 45LC bullets are not suitable or rated at full 460 pressures and velocities, and cause accelerated forcing cone wear, which is why they have the reduced charges for for the non-Gold Dot Bullets. Bullets made for 460 (and 454) are thicker jacketed, and usually have a harder core. I assume Gold Dot fits that bill in Speer bullets just as your XTP-MAG is the ticket in Hornady over the XTP.

Out of what Alliant lists, you can best work off the 300gr Gold Dot load (38gr)as a starting point, as you know your bullet is properly rated, and you know you can load a 240gr way beyond that. You can also compare to 110/296 loadings as a sanity check. I have been eager to try 300-MP but with 110/296 working so well for so many years, it hasn't had a high priority for me. It does appear that reduced loads are okay with this powder, making it differnt than 110/296.

I was curious as to your reasons for rejection of 110/296, but that would probably turn this thread into people like me trying to convince you otherwise, so I'll leave that alone unless you want to start another thread.

[buck460XVR]

Standard 45LC bullets are not suitable or rated at full 460 pressures and velocities, and cause accelerated forcing cone wear, which is why they have the reduced charges for for the non-Gold Dot Bullets. Bullets made for 460 (and 454) are thicker jacketed, and usually have a harder core. I assume Gold Dot fits that bill in Speer bullets just as your XTP-MAG is the ticket in Hornady over the XTP.

TimSr hit it on the head. Speer themselves will tell you this about those 260 gr and 300 gr UCSP pills and that they are only acceptable for reduced loads in the .460. There's a risk of jacket separation in the barrel also. Their 300 gr Gold Dot(now renamed "Deep Curls") tho is a favorite of mine for deer.

I've not heard much good feedback overalll on MP-300, and have avoided it because of this. While I like to use H110/W296 for my .460, my go to powder as of late has been IMR4227. A tad less velocity than H110/W296, but exceptional accuracy, especially under the 300 grainers. I only had so-so luck with 2400 in this caliber. My .460 has tight throats and as such tends to run a tad higher pressures. Most of Hodgdons starting loads are max for me. Many ammo manufactures such as BuffaloBore load for 55,000 PSI now because of this and for easier extraction of spent casings. Many newer load recipes reflect this also. Your will find, you do not need to run the .460 to max for it to be effective on large game or to be accurate.

[Sevens]

Great information, guys. I am familiar with the need for a stoutly constructed bullet at these extreme pressures and velocities and I simply hadn't considered that two of the three listed slugs weren't up to the task -- that you pointed it out certainly shed a lot of light on the (...strange?!) Alliant data.

My resistance to H110 is pretty simple, I've just chosen to take issue with a powder that acts erratically in, what I consider, "normal use" amd H110's penchant for going wacko at reduced charges has had me avoiding it for YEARS.

While I do keep many powders on hand... experimenting with them and building NEW loads (just because I can even if I already have one that works "good enough") is just something I enjoy doing.

And as for the goal of the loads...
Here in .460 Mag, accuracy is obviously a goal, but velocity is also a "MUST" because the main purpose really, truly is the full-boat Howitzer-like cannon experience. I don't want to drop 150 fps and tone it down for the "perfect" load, I want it to offer the full fireball and deep rattling BOOM that it is capable of.

The recoil isn't the goal -- I have no intention of moving away from the 240gr XTP-Mag bullet. I have a large supply of these slugs in stock, so that's what I will use.

I'll go forth with this and I will report back with results.

Thanks!

[BoogieMan]

Out of curiosity has anyone managed to get beyond 2300fps (or whatever Hornady claims from the 200gr) with a 8-3/8" barrel? I do not have the experience reloading to try and push it so I always stay under max published loads.

[buck460XVR]

My resistance to H110 is pretty simple, I've just chosen to take issue with a powder that acts erratically in, what I consider, "normal use" amd H110's penchant for going wacko at reduced charges has had me avoiding it for YEARS.

Here in .460 Mag, accuracy is obviously a goal, but velocity is also a "MUST" because the main purpose really, truly is the full-boat Howitzer-like cannon experience. I don't want to drop 150 fps and tone it down for the "perfect" load, I want it to offer the full fireball and deep rattling BOOM that it is capable of.

Kinda contradicting yourself here. You're avoiding H110/W296 because of how it downloads, yet it is the one powder that will give you exactly what you want outta the .460. Used in it's correct parameters, H110/W296 is as safe, if not safer than any other smokeless powder, very accurate and very consistent.

[TimSr]

My resistance to H110 is pretty simple, I've just chosen to take issue with a powder that acts erratically in, what I consider, "normal use" amd H110's penchant for going wacko at reduced charges has had me avoiding it for YEARS.

Are these issues that you had experienced, or is this based on things you have heard?

110 is certainly a "one trick pony", but it does the tracik better than any other. After 30 years of useage, "erratic" is not a word that comes to mind. More than any other pistol powder, it's one that when I pour in a published amount, I know exactly what I'm going to get every time I pull the trigger. Every problem I have ever heard of can be directly attributed to somebody not following the published load data, usually loading under minimum combined with using the wrong primer.

[Sevens]

I first started avoiding H110 when I learned that it demanded magnum primers. Stocking four sizes of primers was enough for me so I made do with Alliant 2400 -- not quite H110, but runs in the same group.

Later, I added AA#9 -- again, not as slow as H110 but slower than 2400.

Few years ago I got a wild hair to try something NEW, and that was Alliant Power Pro 300-MP. Slower even, than H110. Not at all a contradiction because 2400, AA#9 and 300-MP do -NOT- suffer from the same well known issue tht H110 has about being reduced.

Also not contradictory because the end game (theoretically!) tells us that 300-MP will out-do H110.

Call it many things but contradictory is a failed description. And FWIW, I have avoided H110 since 1988 but even here in this thread I have said I don't want to go that route but never say never.

Really...
The whole goal here is to make a little more shock & awe and hopefull bullet velocity and to accomplish that WITHOUT H110. I do have 7+ pounds of this 300-MP right here.

[Sevens]

Are these issues that you had experienced, or is this based on things you have heard?

Experiences that I have read about on these and other forums.

I don't tend to buy a powder for one single use...
Every handgun powder that I am fond of continues to bring me pleasure by using it in a couple different places at least. For sure, I have some over-lapping pet loads, but experimentation and having a "diversified portfolio" is extremely enjoyable to me.

I fully realize that if someone is, say, hunting, they simply need what they need: accuracy, and in something like the .460, they surely need not chase more bullet speed or fire/brimstone. If they can develop a load that prints well at 100-200 yards, the bullet will take care of the rest.

But sorry, that is not my goal. The chance of my .460 hunting game in my lifetime sits somewhere around 0%, give or take a smidge for error.

If I can't make 300-MP work to my satisfaction under the 240gr XTP-Mag then most likely... I will settle on 1,900 FPS pushed by AA#9.

If I CAN make 300-MP work to my satisfaction, then I hope to attain the same or BETTER velocity as a dumptruck load of H110 and I hope to do exactly that at the SAME or lower peak pressure. that is the goal, anyway. Concocting some trial loads today and most likely will be lit up a week from Sunday. And I will have the fun-sucking Chrony in tow.

[buck460XVR]

Call it many things but contradictory is a failed description.

No it's not. You claim you want the most bang, most recoil. most flash and the highest velocity outta your .460. H110/W296 will give you that. Then you claim you won't use H110/W296 only it downloads poorly. But in the case of your .460 and what you want to achieve, downloading is of no concern at all, thus the contradiction.

Also not contradictory because the end game (theoretically!) tells us that 300-MP will out-do H110.

Theories are full of contradictions. Your theory seems to be that because Mp-300 has a slower burn rate, it makes more velocity, more bang, more flash and more recoil. Ain't how it always works. If that were the case then IMR4227 theoretically would leave MP-300 and H110/W296 in the dust when it comes to velocity, but it doesn't. Lil Gun powder is rated a tad bit faster than both MP-300 and H110/W296 and theoretically gives higher velocity with less pressure in the .460. I refuse to use it because of the damage it produces to forcing cones, especially with a light for caliber bullet like the 240gr XTP-Mag in .460. Burn rate does not equate to performance, yet you mention burn rate continuously as the reason you insist on using MP-300. I think the real reason is you have 7+ pounds of it. Again, I have considered MP-300 more than once, especially during the panic years when it was the only powder left on the shelf. I often wondered why it was the only powder on the shelf. From what I have gleaned from others that have used it, it does perform well enough, but not any better than what I already use, and in many cases not as well. Your experience may vary, and for your sake and the sake of that 7+ pounds I hope so. A decade ago when I first started reloading .460, info and recipes were far and few between. Many were pushing that 65,000 PSI envelope because that's what folks thought were needed. Since then recipes have become numerous, but many have been lightened, along with many factory loads, for legitimate reasons. For the most part tho, like with most any caliber, if you cannot find recipes using the components you have, there's a reason. It may not just be because they don't work....they may just not work well. I wish you well with your quest.

H110/W296 may be a one trick pony, but when the trick is to achieve the maximum velocity in a magnum handgun caliber, it's the pony you probably need to ride. In large volume cases like the .460 loaded at legitimate .460 levels, a magnum primer is not always called for. Look at Speer's manual. H110/W296 is hard to ignite because of the retardants used on it to make it achieve what it does. The issue with poor ignition is more prevalent in small cases like .357. The dangers of downloading H110/W296 is not pressure spikes or detonation like so many on the internet want to believe, but of squib loads. Many times the squib loads are a result of low powder charge and too light of a crimp as much as non-magnum primers. As for having one powder for only one application, as a reloader, I have several. To me it makes more sense to have a powder that works the best in that specific scenario than to use 4 other powders that perform only so-so. Kind why I reload....to get the best performance for a particular scenario, from a particular caliber. I have Bullseye on my shelf and only use it for .45ACP. I have IMR4227on my shelf and only use it for .460 Hunting loads. Cost of the powder is relatively the same. The performance differences tho, are great.

[Sevens]

I said this in post#4:

Haha, I am not saying that I totally refuse to go H110, but I'm about 98% totally refusing to go H110!

I have lot of AA#9 on hand and I have already chrono'd a consistent 1,900 FPS while still a half-grain under the current published max. So if my testing with 300-MP fails to return decent ammo, I will fall back on AA#9.

I ended up with 300-MP because I snagged an 8lb'er of it at the beginning of one of the gun/component panic event of the last five years. I didn't seek out 300-MP to build the world's greatest .460 Magnum load, it just happens to be:

--slower than H110
--a powder I have on hand
...and seemingly suited to the task. I have dabbled with 300-MP in other places where H110 makes appearances. I have cooked .327 Federal loads with it that didn't do as well as I had hoped they would. I have built many .357 Magnum loads with it that run beautifully. So I have the powder, I'm going to attempt to use the powder.

With Longshot, 2400, AA#9 and 300-MP on hand and in good supply, I have no plans to buy H110.

As for having one powder for only one application, as a reloader, I have several. To me it makes more sense to have a powder that works the best in that specific scenario than to use 4 other powders that perform only so-so. Kind why I reload....to get the best performance for a particular scenario, from a particular caliber.

I know this.
I understand this.
I subscribe to this.
So I just went to my stash and counted them up. Not including the single metal can of DuPont IMR-4227 with the red cap that I just never did all too much with, I have FIFTEEN OTHER HANDGUN-SPECIFIC POWDERS ON HAND. It is obviously part addiction and part pure enjoyment of experimentation. A few of those powders I simply don't like for varied reasons, and of those I won't buy more.

I got here to the year 2015 without buying H110. I don't care to buy it now. The loads I have crafted in .460 Mag with the 240gr XTP-Mag bullet using AA#9 will suffice if I cannot make the 300-MP work just as well or better.

It's obvious that you are experienced with the .460 Magnum and that's terrific. I have certainly used your advice in the past with regards to Lil'Gun and I forwarded my supply of it to a buddy to work up .300 Blackout loads, and I sent it to him with full disclosure of it's reputation. And I understand clearly your stance on H110 but continually pounding on it in this thread is as helpful as telling me the best .460 load I can make would be a .500 S&W Magnum load. It's beside the point. Take the high road already, I have no plans to use H110 in .460 Mag or any other caliber either.

[TMD]

I bought the revolver for the fun of the shock and the awe.

And yet you dont want to listen to others with experience in what it takes to achieve that Shock and Awe.
I used to have a 10.5" Performace Center model about 6 years ago and I got it for the same reason. 240 XTP's @ 1900fps are childs play with this gun. Try 300XTP's at over 2100fps or 395 cast @ 1800fps. Of course you may never find out if you're hell bent on sticking with one powder.

[Sevens]

<FACEPALM>
I've already made loads with three different powders in this revolver.
So yeah, not "hell bent on sticking with one powder."

The one thing I definitely will be sticking with is the Hornady 240gr XTP-Mag bullet as I have a thousand of them.

[TMD]

In all fairness, those velocities were achieved with Lil'Gun. After 300 rounds the barrel was shot. Thankfully S&W replaced it and after that I stuck with H110 and 2400. I will say though that Lil"Gun was also the most accurate.

[Sevens]

For the record, the "shock and awe" that you boldly quoted was indeed the reason I bought the revolver. Or rather, it was the justification. Actually, my buddy purchased it new in 2011 and I bought it from him a month ago as he's been clearing out guns. I figured that it was too much fun to shoot and too much fun to experiment with to let it walk away. So I took it in.

The "shock & awe" that I mentioned in the original post is merely my answer for those who were curious about the purpose of these loads that I am chasing. I simply wanted to make it clear that I intend to hunt NO ANIMAL with this revolver, ever. I will shoot at steel plates from 100-400 yards and I will let (many!) others enjoy a couple shots from it when they are curious. That is truly 100% of the use I will get from this 460XVR.

The Goal of this thread was to pick a few fertile brains on developing a load using exclusively 240gr XTP-Mag over Alliant Power Pro 300-MP.

That
Is
The
Goal
There is no other goal. There is -zero- here on my wishlist (ZERO) that H110 will solve.

If the work I put in to Alliant Power Pro 300-MP does not bring a smile to my face, I will default to AA#9 and that will be "good enough."

[TMD]

Nothing wrong with your intentions with the .460. Mine was purchased pretty much for the same reasons, killing paper targets. Oh and for giggles, fill a gallon milk jug with water, place it on one of those cheap metal folding chairs and put it out about 50 yrds. If you hit the water jug squarly in the middle it will vaporize the water to there there isnt any left to make a puddle and collapes the chair into the ground. Just be prepared to by the wife a replacement

[TimSr]

That MP-300 will give you the shock and awe you desire, you hav eit, you might as well use it! Just going to have to be a little more resourceful in determining load data. I will be curious as to your results when you load it down. Some slow powders that can be loaded down, don't perform so well when you do.

With MP-300 is is so new, with so few users, I think whatever you report will be interesting to the magnum pistoleros out there.

[buck460XVR]

And I understand clearly your stance on H110 but continually pounding on it in this thread is as helpful as telling me the best .460 load I can make would be a .500 S&W Magnum load. It's beside the point. Take the high road already, I have no plans to use H110 in .460 Mag or any other caliber either.

The road I took was to give you an answer to the question of getting the most velocity and "shock and awe" from your .460. The confusion you had about the use of inappropriate bullets for this purpose made it very clear you were unfamiliar with reloading for the .460. As TMD said, 300 grainers will do a better job than the 240s for the purpose, but alas, you have that thousand 240s. I understand your stance on using what you have(and you have a lot of it), and you should easily find a load with MP-300 that will shock and awe most folks. I advise you to work up your load in small increments as my experience has shown me, that in my .460, sometimes even 2-3 tenths of a grain will make the difference between easy extraction and using a dowel to get the empties out. Loads that extract easily when shot in 65 degree weather, don't wanna come out when shot at 90 degrees.

I didn't mean to take any road other than try to direct you to the easiest and safest way to achieve your goal. There are tons of threads in the reloading section pertaining to folks wanting to use inappropriate components and then wondering why they can't find recipes, then coming to the internet with hopes some stranger here can give them a magic load. The use of bullets in the .460, intended for .45 colt pressures and velocities is one of the most common, especially for those new to reloading for the .460. Number one reason is generally because they are considerably less expensive than more appropriate bullets and are more readily found. Another thread common here is folks that buy components in bulk before they find out they are not the best or that there is very little published info on them. I'm surprised that Alliant shows no data for the 240 gr XTP-MAG with it's MP-300. Seems that would be a no-brainer as it's one of the most common projectiles used. MP-300 has been around for over 5 years, hard to believe data is still so hard to find. I wish you luck with your quest, let us know what you figure out.

[Sevens]

I can tell you this much...
If .460 Magnum and 300-MP had been on the market and active before 2005, Alliant likely would have published data.

2005 was the last decent published Alliant data source before someone (seemingly) ordered them from above to wipe clean ANY published load data for a non-ATK bullet. Very nearly every single bullet in their published data since 2006 is some manner of a Speer bullet.

As for the non-proper bullets in the harsh environment -- actually, I was familiar with that concept, actually learned that from an ATK tech via e-mail somewhere around 09 or 2010 when I was working up .327 Federal loads using the tiny 71gr FMJ (.32 Auto) bullet. He explained how a slug of light construction will get warped under pressure and forcing cone damage will result. Made perfect sense to me and I settled on around 1,100 fps with them. (in .327, you can launch a 100gr to 1,600 so potential on a 71?! Light speed...?!). And -WHY- this bullet, why why why?! Well, the Barackolypse made nearly EVERY component bullet disappear by mid-2009 and the manufacturers were running 24/7 to feed demand. 9mm and .45cal bullets got produced. .312" jacketed slugs did NOT get produced. Zero of them, for like two years.

In the case of today's Alliant .460 data, I fully understand the concept but am so unfamiliar with Speer products that I simply did not recognize the bullets. Your pointing that out helped tremendously.

I have constructed six different loads and my starting load is the published max for the 300gr Gold Dot. I believe that start load is going to be a light one. I will likely get first testing done next weekend.

On my side are AA#9 loads who's feel and output I am familiar with to compare. Also will have the fun-sucking Chrony in tow. Beyond that, I will be hyper sensitive to case extraction/ejection and I will eyeball them closely in direct sunlight searching for any clues. It is a shame that Alliant has a fantastic, high dollar laboratory do to this but they are leaving it to me.

My best guess at this point is that I will return home with even the top loads tested -- and still have room to go higher if I want. We shall see what happens.