Simunition suggestions

4S50 · June 19, 2004, 09:51 PM

I am putting together a proposal for a simunitions program for my small, fiscally challenged department. The cost of the guns, ammo, and instructor certification is easy enough to find out and project, but I am interested in what others are using for safety gear. I realize that a redman suit and full helmet and face coverage is probably the "recommended" safety gear, and PDT makes some good looking equipment, but.... I am sure that some are using much less. I am thinking face, eye, neck protection, gloves, issued vest and suggest a cup.
Those of you who use simunitions in your departments please let me know what is working for you.
Thanks, Greg

Denny Hansen · June 19, 2004, 10:19 PM

Full face and neck coverage a must. Recommend double eye-pro: the face shield from the helmet backed up by safety glasses. Cup is also a good idea.

FWIW, but I've been to quite a few Sims exercises where IMHO the players padded up too much. Pain is a positive motivator to use good tactics. If no pain is felt, then some exercises can rapidly disintegrate into a game with little learning taking place.

Also scenarios should be scripted very carefully with learning in mind. If the good guys use good tactics they should not necessarily be "shot." If they screw up, the OPFOR should pepper them good.

Just my .02.

Denny

Sweatnbullets · June 19, 2004, 11:04 PM

I agree, you should not over pad. Full helmet,neck protection, gloves,and cup. Long sleeve sweatshirt with a t-shirt underneath is all that should be needed, just enough protection so that the simms do not break the skin.

You want the pain factor to be there so the participants will not want to get hit, or it will just turn into a hosefest game and not very beneficial training.

19114EVER · June 20, 2004, 12:53 AM

Good thought on the cup...I know of a guy that had a fractured testicle from a simunitions round. He swelled up tremendously, from what I heard and he was in unbearable pain. He said he felt like his entire body was going to split in two. Wear a cup and a face shield. A neck gaiter isn't a bad idea either.

I know of a few departments that use simunitions. Some have barrels and magazines you use to convert existing guns to simunitions. Some use dedicated simunition weapons, they're Glocks that have blue frames and regular slides. The dedicated weapons function more reliably. However, the conversion kits make you practice your tap, rack, bang more often, which isn't a bad idea.

4S50 · June 20, 2004, 12:55 PM

Thanks guys. Full helmet? I had not thought of that. I agree about overpadding and would naturally probably lean toward too little rather than too much. I am still hoping to hear from some other LEOs regarding what the safety gear standard is for their department training, and why.

Sweatnbullets · June 20, 2004, 01:11 PM

Yep, full helmet. What if a mistake is made by the GG and the only shoot available is the back of his head. Some lessons just have to be taught but without the inherit danger.

hso · June 21, 2004, 10:12 AM

Add lightweight gloves to the material mentioned. I've got a sim scar on my LH second finger from getting hit in the hand by a 9mm sim. Pealed the skin back very nicely

Another reason to minimize padding is that heat stress can be a real danger if training in the summer. We wore paintball head/face/neck protection, but had 1" foam padding on the body. The padding held the heat in very well and we came very close to having heat injuries when the temps got above 80.

June 19, 2004, 09:51 PM	#1
4S50 Junior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: NorCal Posts: 9	Simunition suggestions I am putting together a proposal for a simunitions program for my small, fiscally challenged department. The cost of the guns, ammo, and instructor certification is easy enough to find out and project, but I am interested in what others are using for safety gear. I realize that a redman suit and full helmet and face coverage is probably the "recommended" safety gear, and PDT makes some good looking equipment, but.... I am sure that some are using much less. I am thinking face, eye, neck protection, gloves, issued vest and suggest a cup. Those of you who use simunitions in your departments please let me know what is working for you. Thanks, Greg

June 19, 2004, 10:19 PM	#2
Denny Hansen Staff Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2001 Location: Prescott Valley, AZ Posts: 2,422	Full face and neck coverage a must. Recommend double eye-pro: the face shield from the helmet backed up by safety glasses. Cup is also a good idea. FWIW, but I've been to quite a few Sims exercises where IMHO the players padded up too much. Pain is a positive motivator to use good tactics. If no pain is felt, then some exercises can rapidly disintegrate into a game with little learning taking place. Also scenarios should be scripted very carefully with learning in mind. If the good guys use good tactics they should not necessarily be "shot." If they screw up, the OPFOR should pepper them good. Just my .02. Denny __________________ S.W.A.T. Magazine Weapons, Training and Tactics for the Real World Join us at TFL or at AR15.com or on Facebook

June 19, 2004, 11:04 PM	#3
Sweatnbullets Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Posts: 263	I agree, you should not over pad. Full helmet,neck protection, gloves,and cup. Long sleeve sweatshirt with a t-shirt underneath is all that should be needed, just enough protection so that the simms do not break the skin. You want the pain factor to be there so the participants will not want to get hit, or it will just turn into a hosefest game and not very beneficial training. __________________ "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts

June 20, 2004, 01:11 PM	#6
Sweatnbullets Senior Member Join Date: November 6, 2002 Posts: 263	Yep, full helmet. What if a mistake is made by the GG and the only shoot available is the back of his head. Some lessons just have to be taught but without the inherit danger. __________________ "Situations dictate strategy, strategy dictates tactics, tactics dictate techniques.....techniques should not dictate anything." Roger Phillips, Owner and Operator of Fight Focused Concepts

June 21, 2004, 10:12 AM	#7
hso Senior Member Join Date: May 10, 2002 Location: Appalachia Posts: 170	Add lightweight gloves to the material mentioned. I've got a sim scar on my LH second finger from getting hit in the hand by a 9mm sim. Pealed the skin back very nicely Another reason to minimize padding is that heat stress can be a real danger if training in the summer. We wore paintball head/face/neck protection, but had 1" foam padding on the body. The padding held the heat in very well and we came very close to having heat injuries when the temps got above 80. __________________ TANSTAAFL

June 20, 2004, 12:53 AM	#4
19114EVER Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2002 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 148	Good thought on the cup...I know of a guy that had a fractured testicle from a simunitions round. He swelled up tremendously, from what I heard and he was in unbearable pain. He said he felt like his entire body was going to split in two. Wear a cup and a face shield. A neck gaiter isn't a bad idea either. I know of a few departments that use simunitions. Some have barrels and magazines you use to convert existing guns to simunitions. Some use dedicated simunition weapons, they're Glocks that have blue frames and regular slides. The dedicated weapons function more reliably. However, the conversion kits make you practice your tap, rack, bang more often, which isn't a bad idea.

June 20, 2004, 12:55 PM	#5
4S50 Junior Member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: NorCal Posts: 9	Thanks guys. Full helmet? I had not thought of that. I agree about overpadding and would naturally probably lean toward too little rather than too much. I am still hoping to hear from some other LEOs regarding what the safety gear standard is for their department training, and why.