Gangsta Style?

[GunGator]

Two good comments (not mine, I admit):


Quote:
The origin of this style of shooting is Israeli intelligence Mossad. In the mid 1970s they sent an assassination squad to Europe to avenge the murders of their Olympic wrestling team, They were armed with mdl 70 Berretta 22lr pistols with special low powered ammo, just enough to RELIABLY cycle.. They shot from point blank range, carried the pistols with an empty chamber and at the last second, pulled back the slide to chamber a round. this is more easily done with the pistol held horizontally (try it). since no aiming was required, they simply shot from this position. They never failed to kill, (although they did get a wrong guy in Norway once).

Quote:
The real reason and history the "gangsta grip" was originally developed was because the crackheads who used the weapons often confused the mag release with the trigger. By holding the gun sideways, they would save themselves the embarassment of dropping the clip out of the gun. Its sort of a "darwin thing" in the hood. Only those that learned the gangsta grip survived to pass their genes on.

__________________

The best explanation I have heard so far has to do with rapid fire or automatic training. In third world countries where ammo is expensive and life is not, Rebels are trained to turn a rifle sideways. If you are spraying a weapon in a matter of milliseconds your muzzle will be pointed at the sky. You may hit a pigeon but not much else. Turn your weapon sideways and you may hit another combatant. Many african nations used this techniqhe and eventually it migrated to various places.

GG

[skeeter1]

Misfire--

That's amazing. At the range I frequent, all of the employees are openly carrying, there are plenty of cops to go there for practice, and the rest of us obviously have at least one gun in our posession.

Now which would you rather try to rob? A bank or a gun shop? I think Darwin would be glad that one was removed from the gene pool.

[BigO01]

yea Misfire thats a true story it's just a shame the owner was sent to a Federal prison for doing "Straw Deals" selling handguns a year later and lost his shop .

I miss Marshels they always had what I wanted for reloading and I didn't have to drive out to St. Charles .

[jamaica]

Hype

A cant will make the gun shoot off to one side. Who needs it?

I like to hit what I shoot at.

[Blackwater OPS]

A cant will make the gun shoot off to one side. Who needs it?

Why would it do that? the angle of the barrel has not changed. Improper trigger pull or recoil can throw a shot of at any cant.

[smince]

Slightly off-topic, but:

We were at a local family amusement park a few weeks ago. While the family were on a ride, I headed to the shooting gallery to amuse myself. A teenager was trying to shoot one of the rifles "gangsta". He couldn't seem to understand why he couldn't hit anything and I wasn't doing too good myself as I was laughing so hard.

[jamaica]

A cant will make a gun shoot off to one side.

It has to do with gravity.

Bullets do not go in a strait line, but as soon as launched begin to fall to earth due to gravity.

Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.

In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.

Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

If you know of any pistol calibers that shoot in straight lines and ignore gravity, I want to know about them.

PS this can be easily demonstrated at the range.

[Blackwater OPS]

Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.
In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.
Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

All of that sounds really good, but it's ridiculous since anyone shooting a pistol IS NOT using both sights but rather point shooting or using the front sight only, at least in the practical scenarios I laid out. They are NOT shooting with a Rifle, and probably not shooting past 60 feet, CERTAINLY not past 100 yards. This is one possible technique that could be used in a life or death combat situation where every milisecond counts and you need a hit on the guy about to shoot you, not a target match hitting paper.

PS This can be easily demonstrated in real life.

[jamaica]

Blackwater

quoting:
All of that sounds really good, but it's ridiculous since anyone shooting a pistol IS NOT using both sights but rather point shooting or using the front sight only, at least in the practical scenarios I laid out. They are NOT shooting with a Rifle, and probably not shooting past 60 feet, CERTAINLY not past 100 yards. This is one possible technique that could be used in a life or death combat situation where every milisecond counts and you need a hit on the guy about to shoot you, not a target match hitting paper.

PS This can be easily demonstrated in real life. end quote.

My first response was in answer to the original post. There was no mention of point shooting. I am not picking apart your scenarios. I assumed he meant that he would use the sights as usual, in which case he would shoot off to one side as I said. If you are not going to use sights it doesn't matter. If your target is under 15 away feet it probably doesn't matter either.

I used a rifle only to demonstrate "WHY", which is what you asked.

I agree, it is good to practice point shooting, or as we say out West, "Shoot From The Hip". This is where you learn about the "pointability" of your gun. Some guns just point well and others do not.

My experience after many years of hunting is that no matter what the game or the gun, you have to make a good hit to kill anything, including a fly. You don't often do that just pointing and hoping. You carefully align the sights on a vital area, and squeeze off.

The sights are put on the gun for a good reason, that is to help you hit your target. All sights take into consideration what gravity is going to do. To be properly aligned the sights have be aligned vertically above the bore. Any cant will cause errors. How much error will depend of a number of factors, including the distance to the target. I am sure you will notice this phenomena shooting at 25 yards with any handgun. (Using Sights)

Just something to think about.

[wolfdog45]

I have tried shooting gangsta style but it does not work for me. I would only use it if I had to and only if i was real close to the target.

[HorseSoldier]

This would actually be a cool one to refer to the guys at Mythbusters, I think.

I can honestly say I've never given it a try. Long, long ago had an LEO explain to me that 90 degree cant puts point of impact off in some unexpected direction and took it as gospel, but honestly could not say if he knew what he was talking about or not (that being way back in the day when I thought that a badge meant you were by default an expert pistolero. . . )

[bigdave]

while i was doing my IET (initial employment training , im a rifleman in the Australian army) , on alot of the MOUT courses we did , i always found that aiming around or above certain obstacles , while shouldering my rifle "gangsta style" was a bit handy , but generally no , gangsta style is just stupid. though we did have an instructor , who for some reason when firing Browing HP 9mms , preferred to hold it gangsta style but with two hands , 70% of the time . when we asked him why he preferred it that way , he had this look of dumb shock and he said " i have no idea".

(Post edited by Capt Charlie for veiled language)

[Jack Malloy]

Homeboy nite sites special aside, there is a reason why bad guys lose gunfights.
Unless you can customize it homeboy style (LOL) you will not hit what you are aiming at because the sites are on TOP of the gun, not the side.
On New Years eve a local crack dealer was hanging in a bar when a local triggerman walked in and shot at him with his low quality .380.
He missed a 270 pound man and hit the two guys standing to the side of him.
Fortunately the gun jammed halfway through the clip and the Saturday Nite Speical Assassin then fled out the door....

[brickeyee]

"Unless you can customize it homeboy style (LOL) you will not hit what you are aiming at because the sites are on TOP of the gun, not the side."

AS al;ready pointed out, handguns tend to have sights and barrels that are rather signifiacntly out of larallel to make up for the recoil before the bullet exits the barrel.
It is a BS method with so few practical applications as to still be BS.

[Harley Quinn]

Pure and simple, a slight cant is not 45 degrees.

HQ

[pickpocket]

A cant will make a gun shoot off to one side.

It has to do with gravity.

Bullets do not go in a strait line, but as soon as launched begin to fall to earth due to gravity.

Consider a scoped rifle sighted in for 100 yards. The scope is aproximately 1.5 inches above the bore. As the bullet is launched it will cross the line of sight at somewhere around 60 feet, and travel above the line of sight until it reaches 100 yards where it will again cross the line of sight hitting the target.

In order for this to happen the barrel is not parallel to the line of sight, but is angled upward. Now picture the result if you cant the rifle 90 degrees to the left. The line of sight is still on target, but the bore is angled to the left, which is where the bullet will go. It will also shoot low, because the angle of upward tilt to compensate for gravity is missing.

Yes a cant does make the gun shoot off to one side as I said earlier. It will also make it shoot lower.

If you know of any pistol calibers that shoot in straight lines and ignore gravity, I want to know about them.

PS this can be easily demonstrated at the range.

That's a joke, right? Your theory is sound, just completely backwards.

If you place a laser-boresight in the chamber of your weapon...would it travel at an upward angle? No.

If you were to place a laser on your rear sight and align it with your front sight, would you notice that it traveled at a slight downward angle? Yes.

THAT is what accounts for the fact that a projectile will intersect line-of-sight twice; NOT because the barrel is angled upwards. The projectile will NEVER rise above the front sight.
There is also nothing about firearm design that will "compensate" for gravity.

[smince]

The projectile will NEVER rise above the front sight.

Sure about this? If you are zeroed at, say 300 yds, and shoot at say, 100yds, the bullet will impact 2-3" high (depending on caliber). This IS above the front sight. I think it is called mid-range trajectory.

True the barrel isn't at an "upward angle". But when you line up your downward-slanting sights, the barrel does rise up also.

[Bender711]

I think he means if the barrel is level.

[pickpocket]

You're right - we're saying the same thing.

It only appears to be above the front sight. In reality, the projectile can never really rise above the bore-line. If you draw an imaginary straight line from your front sight to the target, it is physically impossible for the round to cross that line.
If you zero at 300m and shoot a target at 100m, you are correct - the round will strike high. That is because your sights have been adjusted DOWN to intersect the bullet trajectory at 300m and at 100m the round is still "above" line of sight.

Think about it this way: in order to shoot further out you must adjust your sights. In essence, you are angling the sights so that they are at a sharper downward angle, which - once you sight in - forces the angle of departure (or the angle at which you are holding the barrel) to increase upwards. However, because a bullet has no inherent flight capability, it is physically impossible for it to rise above the boreline.

The upward cant of a barrel is not a design feature, it is a product of adjustable sights.

[stratus]

Originally Posted by jamaica

My experience after many years of hunting is that no matter what the game or the gun, you have to make a good hit to kill anything, including a fly. You don't often do that just pointing and hoping. You carefully align the sights on a vital area, and squeeze off.

Blackwater is talking about CQB (or approaching CQB) with a pistol, not hunting.

[gdeal]

nuff said.

[Bender711]

The only way that you could have the bullet raise over the front site would be to shoot over a spinning super conducting magnet, but thats just silly.

[Harley Quinn]

many of you have failed to grasp the situation.

Like the man said "stupid" that is a quote, I don't use that word.
Ignorant is better.

HQ

[jamaica]

Oh c'mon, surely you guys have heard about trajectories and the relationship of bullet path to line of sight?

If not perhaps you could do some research. Perhaps you can come to understand that the bullet does indeed rise above the line of sight and come back down to hit the target at the range where the gun is sighted in. The only exception to this is if you are shooting closer than where the trajectory of the bullet first crosses the line of sight, which in my rifle illustration would be 60 feet.

Pistol bullets have a poor balistic coefficient and travel at much lower velocities than rifle bullets, which means that they do not have a very flat trajectory. In other words you would have to raise your rear sight quite a bunch to get the pistol to zero at 100 yards. You launch the bullet at an uphill angle and it arcs up and back down to hit the target. At midrange the bullet would be quite a bit above the line of sight. Much more than a rifle bullet would be (assuming sighted in at 100 yards)

Once you figure this out you will then be able to comprehend why a cant will make the gun shoot off to one side and low.

The Hornady Reloading Handbook has excellent balistic tables and goes into this in detail. It is pure physics; not my law, but natural law. You might ignore mens laws, but if you ignore the law of nature the consequences are immediate and often catastrophic.

[jamaica]

quoting pickpocket

It only appears to be above the front sight. In reality, the projectile can never really rise above the bore-line.

The projectile does not rise above the bore line. What I said is, the bullet rises above the line of sight.

If you draw an imaginary straight line from your front sight to the target, it is physically impossible for the round to cross that line.

I am going to assume you mean with the sights properly aligned on the target?
If so your statement is incorrect.
The line of sight is a straight line. It is the line you see from your eye to the target; looking over your sights, post centered in the notch and level on top and aligned on the bullseye.
Yes, the bullet does rise above the line of sight.

Have you ever thrown a baseball? Remember how it arches up then falls back down? That is exactly what a bullet does. You are out in right field and grab a grounder. You are going to throw it to the first baseman. You can see him. That is a straight line from your eye to the target. That is your line of sight. Now throw the ball............................... it arches way up above the line of sight and drops back down into his mitt. Right? You actually launch that baseball at quite an uphill angle to get it there. Right?

Bullets and sights work the same way. It is physics. It is just the way it is. No room for arguement. You can't change it. You may come to understand it.