Safety Rules--How many GET it?

[Jim March]

To me, muzzle direction is the "top rule". If your muzzle direction is OK, things cannot get too serious. Annoying, loud, yes, but nobody dies.

At a gun show or anyplace else it is impossible for me to point a gun at somebody who isn't a threat. If I'm checking a sight picture or something it'll be up in the air at a vendor's sign, corner of the building or whatever, finger off trigger.

One of the things I really like about SA revolvers is that I can quickly pull the cylinder pin, pull the cylinder, replace the pin (so the action works on a New Model Ruger) and now it's technically "no longer a gun". I still won't point it at anybody but...the safety issues are vastly reduced AND almost anybody in the room can tell it's disabled.

The scary part is dry-fire-and-draw practice.

I use a garage that has a solid brick wall, no windows, from the inside. There's no people for a long, long ways on the other side. The really important part is the need to have mental queues for "gun going cold" and "GUN GOING HOT NOW - ALL DONE - NO MORE PLAY!!!".

In other words, when restoring the gun to duty, I more or less meditate over it as now being loaded for a matter of minutes. An accidental "one more quickdraw" has left a lot of holes in a lot of TV sets, at best.

[bensdad]

Reading this and agreeing wholeheartedly I remember my brothers story.
He and his friend (Mike), who just bought a 357 and 9 mm Glock, where sitting around after being out. My brother does not drink but his friend did. Mike was not drunk just a couple of beers.
Nevertheless he wanted to show off his new guns. Takes them out of the cases. Hands my brother the 357, who checks it and unloads it. Hands it back to the guy unloaded. Friend hands him the Glock, my brother unloads this one also and looks at it and puts it back unloaded into the case.
Friend loads the 357 and puts it on the table. Puts the clip back into the Glock and puts it back into the case.
Grabs the 357 and messes with it. Gun goes off and misses my brothers leg but left a hole in the pants. The bullet misses a loaded shotgun by a couple of inches right by some ammo and they find the bullet lodge in some wood in the garage. My brother said they both about peed their pants.
My brother never went back over to his friends house again.

A couple of months later the same friend went to Florida on vacation taking his guns with him (he is not licensed to carry, nor has taken any classes). While there and carrying them on him, he gets stopped by some type of security guard in a bar who confiscated his gun and tells him to get it tomorrow at the police station or as he has been drinking he can have him arrested by the police now. He gave up his guns thinking he would have no more trouble. He goes to the PD the next day and guess what, they don't know what the hell he is talking about. They took his information and told him good luck getting his guns back, and also that he could be charged with a crime. They go to the bar and they do not know about any security guy.He and our other friend who went with him had a long drive back. Our other buddy never went anywhere with him either.

Some people should not have guns because they are idiots and will not follow gun safety or laws.

[jrothWA]

was small game hunting back IN Ohio.

Another hunter came up on my buddy & I, and proceeded to ground the shotgun butt, and place his elbow on the MUZZLE, forearm in-line with barrel.
I asked if he understood the the "Big Green" firearm that only block the trigger from operating and the hammer is free to move.

It's okay the safety's on... Just shoook my head afterwards.

Any time I be approached or stopped by wardens I ulound of cap-off the firearm.

[thump_rrr]

I was in a restricted firearms course last weekend.
I usually like to participate in any course I attend so I sat in the front row.
When it came time for everyone to handle the deactivated firearms (drilled barrels) they were told to handle the firearms as if they were loaded.
They were also told to safety check any weapon that was handed to them and any weapon they were handing off to the next person.
I have never been coverd by a muzzle more times in my life than I was in that classroom.
There were some people who were wondering why I kept ducking.
Needless to say I sat at the back of the class the next day.

[Double Naught Spy]

I was trying to find an old thread where it had been debated about canting the pistol up and left during a reload and whether or not it was unsafe. I haven't found the thread yet, but found this link in another thread.

Apparently, the practice is called "The Rule of 45" and people continue to teach it as a proper method. Note in the text and video that no mention is made regarding muzzle safety. It is presented as if pointing the gun up and out is perfectly normal and safe.
http://ballseyesboomers.blogspot.com...rule%20of%2045

Also see...
http://watch2video.net/handgun-shoot...UvCD3GUpj.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbC5mEc6ipE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

Note that several of the folks in the vids above caution students about having their fingers inside the trigger guard during the reload, but show an apparently complete disregard for muzzle safety. These people are basically training an unsafe behavior and it is a pervasive standard throughout much of the industry...and each and every one of them doesn't appear to have a clue that they are doing something unsafe. Also note that in a couple of the vids, you can clearly see the guns pointed well above the berms around the ranges and the gun handlers don't even bother to look in the direction their guns are pointing to make sure that they aren't doing anything wrong.

In the last to vids, I got a kick out of each shooter noting that the magazines are extracted, held, and inserted with just two points of contact, the meat of the palm and the index finger, though both guys are obviously using their thumbs and middle fingers as well.

[bensdad]

I was at my CCL class and the instructor was showing the different makes and models of guns and ammo. He showed the class how to load and unload the guns, with dummy bullets.
During break he invited everyone to come and check out the guns. As one can imagine there were a lot of novices there who would point at others and were told to stop. Everybody was instructed before not to dry fire, so of course three people had to do this.
After looking at some of the guns I came across the 22 revolver he had loaded earlier and of course the dummy cartridge was in the chamber. Took it out and gave the gun and ammo to the instructor.
He was very thankful and had wondered how many people would handle the gun before noticing this. I was probably the 8th person to look at it.
I don't know about the tactic but it makes you wonder when people do hand you a gun if they really know if it is unloaded.
I was surprised that some people did not shoot somebody (or themselves) by accident at the range, but he ran a real tight ship and nobody was allowed to point their gun other than downrange, which they somewhat did. I was in the second group so got to leave before some of the more dangerous characters had their turn. I know nobody is perfect and may have never handled a firearm before but some of them seem to think it was just a toy, and handled it that way. I did not grow up around guns but I give it respect for what it can do. As they say you can't take that shot back once it has been fired.

[amazon shooter]

I might as well tell my story too.

Some years ago my German friend bought a used Walther PPK - his first gun.
Since my first gun was a Walther, I showed him the safety features and how to take off the slide. I also told him about the gun safety rules I was taught by the NRA when I was a boy.

The next day, he said, "You will not believe what happened?" I still don't believe what he told me. He said, "While I was cleaning my gun, it fired a bullet." Yup, the gun went off as he was sitting at the kitchen counter cleaning his gun while his girlfriend was cooking. The bullet richocheted around three walls just missing him and his girlfriend.

I'll give him a D- on his report card - at least he didn't have it aimed at his girlfriend.

I guess he just didn't get it. And to think that guys like him are out there with a LOADED GUNS.

[Brit]

USPSA not only allow the "Point up and left reload" they have many times used photographs in their magazine depicting that method. I am a Life Member (get the magazine free!)

Think about the mechanics of a reload a bit, if you are right handed, and do the up and left reload, you are moving the magazine well away from the nose of the new magazine.

Just rotating the pistol to the right, but level with the ground, keeps the muzzle pointing at the back stop, and is pointing the magazine well, directly at the new magazine insertion.

In an adrenalin fueled situation (a gun fight) you can actually touch your body with both arms, lessening your chance of a shake/fumble dropped magazine.

Who can shake that much, to have a shake that bad, for it to be a problem! Hullo?

[Double Naught Spy]

We are all familiar with the 4 safety rules of Jeff Cooper, right?
http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html This listing appears to come from The Modern Technique of the Pistol, pages 8-10

We all know that Jeff Cooper is a huge icon in much of the gun world and that some of his teachings, especially the gun safety rules are dogma. So it would be reasonable to expect that Cooper, whilst living, would be the living embodiment of his safety rules. Turns out, such an expectation would be very naive and that Cooper really didn't practice what he preached. I am not sure that he GETS it at all.

Here is Jeff Cooper violating his own safety rules .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

How many violations do you see?

Rule I? Is Cooper handling the gun as if it was loaded? Does it appear that he is engaged in partial compliance? Would it bother you to see a person handling a loaded gun in that manner? Remember that accordng to Cooper in regard to Rule I, There are no exceptions. So what part of "no" doesn't he understand?

Rule II? With the opening scene of Cooper, he draws his 1911 and covers his leg in the process. Later when he reholsters, he covers his leg again.

Rule III? Does Cooper keep his finger off the trigger until his sights are on target? Nope.

Rule IV? His target seems to be the ceiling, walls, and back of the classroom.

Check out Jeff pointing his pistol over the berm and covering his leg as he reholsters. There is a very clear closeup of him covering his own leg as he reholsters at 2:44... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3uP...eature=related

From the examples in these two videos, you can see that when Cooper reholsters his gun each time, to find the mouth of the holster, he cants the muzzle of his gun toward himself. He does it repeatedly and consistently.

In the summary section of the safety rules, Cooper says...

Make these rules a part of your character. Never compromise them. Improper gunhandling results from ignorance and improper role modeling, such as handling your gun like your favorite actor does. Education can cure this. You can make a difference by following these gunhandling rules and insisting that those around you do the same. Set the example. Who knows what tragedies you, or someone you influence, may prevent?

Based on the videos and his summary about the safety rules, he has not made the safety rules part of his character. He has compromised them. He is either ignorant or has chosen a wrong role model. Education has not cured this for him. He certainly is not making a difference by following the gun safety rules given his wanton disregard for them.

No doubt some of y'all will want to flame me for blasphemy and likely come up with all sorts of reasons why Cooper's actions in the videos aren't actual safety violations or that he gets a free ride because the violations are part of the teaching process or that he is a gun guru with a long history in the shooting world. I simply did nothing more than to compare his rules and his standards for those rules to his actions.

[Catfishman]

I'll add the courtesy checking the chamber as a firearm is picked up,or passed.It tells me something if a person opens,or fails to open,an action before handing me a firearm.

Courtesy Check. I really like that

[DT Guy]

I always thought of myself as a safe gun-handler.

Having to teach my sons, however, strongly reinforced some things I'd always done, but taken for granted.

Handing my 17 year old a pistol, he'll pop it open and check the chamber-period. This is whether I've handed it to him, his grandfather's handed it to him or Jeff Cooper's ghost has handed it to him.

This persistence of habit; not ever becoming 'too good' to have to follow the rules-is what keeps us safe. The rigid, unyielding obedience to safe gun-handling rules isn't a crutch, it's the path to continuing safety.


Larry

[MLeake]

I am a bit perplexed by the 45 degree reload comments. I can see it for a revolver, as the muzzle pointing up helps with ejection, but I can't see how it would be beneficial for an auto.

Back in Navy security training, the Gunny (Marines used to provide firearms instructors for USN security departments, back when) taught us to keep the 1911 on target throughout the reload. This greatly sped up target acquisition after the reload.

Of course, he also advocated reloading before running dry. As the 1911 could be fired with loaded chamber and empty mag well, this allowed us to actually cover the target during the reload.

So, why are people rotating their autos during a reload? I don't get it...

[Double Naught Spy]

They get rotated for a couple of reasons dealing with making it easier to get a new magazine into the gun. The first reason is to gain better access to the mag release button. Unless you have really long thumbs or big hands, the mag release is really difficult to reach for some people. Rotating the gun gives you better access to the button.

About 7 or 8 years ago, I had a class with Ken Hackathorn who advocated holding the rotated gun in front of one's face because at that moment, the most important thing in the world (if you are in a battle) is getting the gun reloaded and back into the fight. So you want the gun up in front of the face so that you can clearly see the mag and magwell such that the insertion isn't fumbled in any way. So rotating the gun gives you easier access to the mag well. Holding the rotated gun in front of your face lets you see the process. Personally, the notion of holding the gun in front of one's face and losing situational awareness is an awfully shortsighted idea.

Keeping your target covered during reload, toward the threat, or keeping the gun pointed safely down range really does make much more sense from the perspectives of safety and defense. It is a bit more difficult to become proficient doing in that manner, however. If the problem is just getting access to the mag well, then after dropping the spent magazine, the gun can be rotated along the axis of the bore such that the gun remains pointed down range and toward the target/threat.

[Nnobby45]

To me, muzzle direction is the "top rule". If your muzzle direction is OK, things cannot get too serious. Annoying, loud, yes, but nobody dies.

To suggest that muzzle direction is more important than finger off trigger is incredible.

Bullets can penetrate ceilings, floors and walls no matter how muzzle conscious you are.

To believe that is to believe that the resin is more important than the hardner.

[Tom Servo]

To suggest that muzzle direction is more important than finger off trigger is incredible. Bullets can penetrate ceilings, floors and walls no matter how muzzle conscious you are.

None of the four rules allows someone to violate any of the other three.

I once had a very interesting conversation with someone who tried to excuse his behavior by saying, "look, you and I both know that concrete stops bullets."

No, we don't both know that. Several years ago, I spoke with a guy who was being sued by his neighbors because he'd loosed a round of 7mm Mauser in a "cleaning accident." The bullet went out his window, through the side of their house, and impacted their refrigerator, missing their daughter by less than a foot.

[Nnobby45]

I am a bit perplexed by the 45 degree reload comments. I can see it for a revolver, as the muzzle pointing up helps with ejection, but I can't see how it would be beneficial for an auto.

Back in Navy security training, the Gunny (Marines used to provide firearms instructors for USN security departments, back when) taught us to keep the 1911 on target throughout the reload. This greatly sped up target acquisition after the reload.

The handle of the pistol is pointed at the spare mag so it can go straight in. No more complicated than that.

Just standing there with gun pointed at the target with arm extended while you reload has flaws.

You can't move to cover while doing it and you're a good target.

Trying to find the mag. well with arms extended, unsupported, under adrenaline stress is a shaky propositioin (literally).

A SWAT instructor and team leader, as well as dept. firearms instructor taught me to reload by bringing my right elbow into my side to steady it with mag. well pointed at weak side mag. pouch.

Gun is just below eye level allowing you to look the mag. into the gun or see it peripherally while keeping track of the threat. Seat magazine and extend--or shoot without extending if you need to.

Kelly McCann (aka Jim Grover) showed on his video how to use two fingers of the support hand to shift the gun toward you so the thumb can reach the mag. release. Quick and positive.

Maintaining your shooting position with both arms extended so you can get back on target quicker? I wonder if anyone who advocates that has actually been in a gunfight.

Just my thoughts on the matter

[Double Naught Spy]

Just standing there with gun pointed at the target with arm extended while you reload has flaws.

Trying to find the mag. well with arms extended, unsupported, under adrenaline stress is a shaky propositioin (literally).

Maintaining your shooting position with both arms extended so you can get back on target quicker? I wonder if anyone who advocates that has actually been in a gunfight.

Nobody here as said the reload has to be done with the arms extended. But to answer your query, Clint Smith demos it in the vid that I cited on Page 1 of the thread and he has been in gunfights. Notice that by reloading in that manner, the gun isn't pointed somewhere off the range or into somebody's 2nd story window. The 14 year old honor student riding his bicycle six blocks away does not have to be endangered by a mag change that orients the gun in a manner that could result in him being shot.

I am not sure that being a firearms instructor or being in gun fights necessarily makes any claim particularly correct. As I stated, Ken Hackathorn (lots of experience and fights) advocates holding the gun in front of the face, pointed up and away and in keeping with the point of this thread, is an unsafe gun handling procedure.

[MLeake]

Thanks for the explanation, DNS. I do have oversized fingers, so I can manipulate the mag release (and the slide stop for that matter) without shifting grip. Also, I was taught to find the nose of the top round with my index finger, and guide it into the mag well. I practice this by feel quite often.

Nnobby45, I agree that use of cover should be maximized. Not sure I see that either method offers an advantage while moving rapidly. Will try it sometime this week and see for myself.

[TeamSinglestack]

I think a lot of folks don't really get it when it comes to the safety rules.

No, they don't.

[Brit]

One of the bonuses of carrying a Hi Cap pistol... You don't have to reload as much! And when you do, the aperture you are aiming for, is bigger than a single stack one.

"More is better, always"

[HiBC]

The reload technique I found in some magazine and adopted does have the handgun turned some,and muzzle up,but a full 90 degrees muzzle left is not the plan.An important part of the plan is finger out of the guard,along the slide. Handgun is positioned so I am looking through the triggerguard at my target with the right eye.Muscle memory,feel,and peripheral vision get the mag change done.
I have used this in falling plate competition without comment from the RSO.
DNS,do you ever holster a handgun?At some time,your foot or knee or thigh,or the person behind you when you bend over,will be covered.Do you only carry a hunting long arm pointed near vertical down at the ground,never port arms?I am not suggesting we be sloppy or careless,but I will accept muzzle up and away.At the same time,I will do what I can to avoid ND's
I think the greater point is,all systems of gun handling are fallible.We as humans cannot do anything perfectly every time.So we practice layers of redundancy in safety.
Unload it ,but because you may fail that,check it when you pick it up,but because you may fail that,keep it pointed in a safe direction,but because you may fail that,keep your finger off the trigger...etc.
Lets not get down to only one layer,"Don't worry,it ain't loaded" '

[AwlArtist]

I was taught from a very young age to treat every firearm as if it were loaded and never point it at anything you don't want to shoot and NEVER point it at another human, along with never walking in front of the person shooting.
I envy the know how of some people who, when handed an unfamiliar handgun, can, with a few flips of the finger, have it opened and checked in the matter of a few seconds.
Most of the time, I am unable to slide the top of a semi-auto because of my wrist, my own .25's, I can pull back far enough to make sure there is not one chambered.
If the gun is something I am unfamiliar with or large, I look without touching.
On the subject of shooting etiquette, I have been to a range with my brother and his friend, my sister, our kids... basically my entire family... and we were brought up with the 'rules'.
The 'other people' at the range were the ones that made us all nervous. Walking up to look at targets while someone down range was still shooting, stuff like that.
I have not been back there, my little girls were better behaved than most of the firearm owners that day.
The other time I was incredibly uncomfortable was when we were shooting at my sisters (same sister) and a 'friend' or theirs was there, waving the wrong end where ever he felt like it. My 2 nephews were there, 1 of my daughters, several of his kids.
I did mention it to him, he is somewhere in his 40's, as am I.
He told me that since he works in the local Remington factory and makes gun parts that he is an 'expert' and I have nothing to worry about.
My guns will stay in my trunk should I ever find him there again.

[Double Naught Spy]

DNS,do you ever holster a handgun?At some time,your foot or knee or thigh,or the person behind you when you bend over,will be covered.

Yep, I carry and I holster. Yep, things get covered and I have never claimed otherwise. My point is that we like to claim this dogmatic adherence to the 4 gun safety commandments as handed down by Jeff Cooper in stone when he came down from talking to some burning shrubbery on the mountain.

It was Jeff Cooper, not me, who set these up. It was Jeff Cooper and not me who said to never compromise the safety rules. So I fnd it rather amazing that in just two short videos that Jeff Cooper violates all four of his safety rules and that he repeatedly and consistently keeps scanning himself with a gun when he says that this should never be allowed to happen. He is obviously compromising the safety rules and violating the safety rules.

Do you see the ironic problem here? If the gun guru of safety rules is unable to follow his own rules, where does that leave the rest of us mere mortals?

As a regular gun handler, I violate the safety rules as well because and you note, holstering a gun quite often results in me scanning part of my leg. IWB holsters are even worse. You know I once tried a Pager Pal and the notion of scanning my "parts" while drawing really disturbed me.

I think the greater point is,all systems of gun handling are fallible.We as humans cannot do anything perfectly every time.

The real problem is not that we can't do anything perfectly every time, but that if we carry a gun in a holster on our hip or we do the canted 45 degree magazine changes that are taught to us by gun professionals, we will violate the safety rules virtually EVERY TIME. We teach people to violate the gun safety rules after we teach them the gun safety rules mantra and tell the students that they must not violate the rules.

However, the institutionality of the problem isn't just with teaching. We have all sorts of gun carrying gear, holsters, slings, etc. that if used properly will result in the violation of gun safety rules.

Think about it. It is really pretty stupid.

I am not suggesting we be sloppy or careless,but I will accept muzzle up and away.At the same time,I will do what I can to avoid ND's

Sure you will accept muzzle up and away as you aren't the one that is down range from the muzzle if the gun does discharge. Funny how that works. Basically, you are saying that you are okay with endangering others, especially when you have no direct knowledge of those who you may be endangering. You will endeavor not to let the gun discharge at that time, but at the same time you can't be bothered with keeping the muzzle oriented in a safe direction. It is a fairly hypocritical perspective, don't you think?

Lets not get down to only one layer,"Don't worry,it ain't loaded"

Given the hypocrisy of our current system between the rules, gun handling instruction, and gear, I don't know that "Don't worry, it ain't loaded" isn't just as valid to use for gun safety. In your case, you are willing to point the gun up and away while offer the one just one layer..."It's loaded, but I will try not to let it discharge and harm anyone down range." And that is a reality that I am fairly certain we are all guilty of participating in, though most of us probably have never voiced it to ourselves and try not to think about it.

If we were to actually follow the safety rules as dictated and without violating them, then our ability to handle and use firearms would become significantly restricted.

[Skans]

Anytime someone says that the gun isn't loaded as an excuse for pointing it in an unsafe direction they're proving that they don't get it.

I guess you can put me in the club of folks who "don't get it". Most of the time I agree with what John said above. However, there are times when I am training with a select few knowledgable and experienced people that we use our actual carry weapons for various drills. Every gun is checked and rechecked by everyone participating in the exercise to make sure that it is not loaded and magazines are left out of the guns. Yes, we take turns pointing real guns at each other and pulling the trigger, practicing various defensive moves and drawing our pistols to shoot an attacker.

So, although we do take safety very seriously, we "don't get it" when someone makes a blanket statement something like the one above. Just keep in mind: Rules don't guaranty safety. All rules aren't for everyone in every situation, and there is generally at least one exception to most rules.

[Tom Servo]

Just keep in mind: Rules don't guaranty safety. All rules aren't for everyone in every situation, and there is generally at least one exception to most rules.

Yours is a very specialized situation. There's a big difference between what you're describing and the guy I chewed out the other day for waving a rifle around, then refusing to show clear because, "I can tell it's unloaded by the weight."

In your case, there are clear ground rules, and the people present can all be trusted to be conscientious about them. Out and about in normal life, I'm a lot less trusting of Joe Six Pack.