Corperations allowed to own Title 2 weapons..potential loophole?

Carbon_15 · January 8, 2002, 01:42 AM

South Carolina recently made it legal for civilians to own full-auto weapons within the limitations of the federal law. As I was glancing over some of the litereature on the new law, I noticed that there are acceptions for Military, police, (no suprise there) and Corperations...what. Why havent I heard of this before. I dont know what all goes into forming a corperation but the idea of being able to buy brand new machine guns and other prohibited weapons without the limitations of legal civilian ownership (only modles made and registered prior to '86, prohibitively high prices) make this seam like a juicy loophole. Just think, a brand new suppresed P-90 for $1500, a NIB M-16 A2 for $800, a SAW for $2000...these are FN's aproximate law enforcement prices...compair this to a pre-86 M-16 at 6-10K. there is a supressed 9mm CAR-15 full auto on gunsamerica right now for $1550, but its a LEO only...the same gun for civilian would be sale triple or more.
Could someone more versed in business law explain to me why we dont all have kitchen table corperations for the purpose of personal ownership of cheap, new model,legal machineguns.

bastiat · January 8, 2002, 02:02 AM

You would still be bound by the 86 ban. The corporation exemption (I hate the term 'loophole') is for chief LEO signoff only on NFA weapons.

The only way you could own a post -86 full auto weapon would be to become a FFL dealer that deals in title II weapons.

The Rock · January 8, 2002, 09:05 PM

bastiat is 100% correct on this.

A non FFL/SOT Corp can buy transferables only.

TR

Carbon_15 · January 8, 2002, 11:49 PM

So thats why. Thanks for the info guys. This whole full-auto thing is so new to me. Untangeling the pages of legalese and the gunshop rumors can be a bit of a chore.
So the only was for a civilian to legaly own title 2 weapons of the non-pre86 flavor is to become a FFL holder licensed for full autos and such. what is involved in obtaining an FFL sans an actual gun business. Not for the purpose of fraud mind you, just to aid in expanding a personal collection?
Thanks,
Jason

ViLLain · January 9, 2002, 12:16 AM

Machine guns are also treated differently. In 1986, as part of
the Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA), Congress prohibited
individuals from owning machine guns, and made it an affirmative
defense that the machine gun was registered before the act took
effect (which was 5/19/86). See 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(o) for the law.
Thus as an individual you can only legally own a machine gun that
was registered before that date. Any registered after that date
can only be owned by SOT's, law enforcement, and government
entities. A SOT may not keep these machine guns after surrendering
his SOT. In order to transfer one of these machine guns, the SOT
must have a request from an agency able to own one for a
demonstration. Or an order from one of those agencies to buy one.
A class 2 SOT can make machine guns for research and development
purposes, or for sale to dealers as samples, or for sale to
government entities. These are commonly called post-86 machine
guns.

SOT - special (occupational) taxpayer

Source:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.e...st/nfa_faq.txt

chetchat · January 9, 2002, 12:58 AM

Quote:

What is involved in obtaining an FFL sans an actual gun business. Not for the purpose of fraud mind you, just to aid in expanding a personal collection?

The ATF severely frowns upon this. The Special Occupation Tax license is for the purposes of importing, making, selling, and transferring NFA weapons. Though there is a side benefit to being able to procure non-transferrable weapons, the primary objective is for business purposes and the ATF will check on that.

The idea is that you can get all these neat weaps and show 'em to your local LEO to interest him in the purchase of, or use for training and familiarization for his officers. For your trouble and investment you have some tres cool stuff to shoot and show off.

If as an SOT you wind up just becoming a collector and not a NFA businessman, the weapons are subject to confiscation and you may be found liable for the transfer tax for each weapon, followed by fines and associated felony convictions and time in jail.

Carbon_15 · January 9, 2002, 02:10 AM

So i guess what you guys are saying is that there is no legal way for a civilian to own post 86 machine guns. The closest you could get is obtaining a SOT, but then you can only have them for demonstration purposes or after a LEA has writen you a letter saying they want to buy one...right. So we are stuck with the rediculously overpriced pre-86 stuff..no if ands or buts. What I want to know is why is a new M-16 more dangerous than a pre-86 example

I'm going to try to get one or two pre-86 full autos before my first baby gets here. Lord knows my gun buying days will be over for a while afterward. Since you all know more than me about the title 2 laws, what says mother government on conversions. In my undertanding, the parts that make a gun full auto are what have to have been regestered prior to 86. Can I buy a legal, pre-86 machine gun part and use it to convert a new gun? Im most interested in converting an Ar15 and Mac11 9mm. The Mac I'm looking at is a pre-ban (assault weapon ban that is) with a threaded barrel. A suppressor and whatever parts make it full auto would make a very fun range toy and a very effecent way to turn money into noise. I have also seen quite a few reggestered auto sear for AR-15's on gun broker for nder $500. Since I already own some AR's that would make an economical machinegun. Could I hav ethe auto sear instaled in one of my new AR's without breaking the law, or does the whole gun have to be pre-86?

**4V50 Gary** · January 9, 2002, 10:09 AM

I'm under the impression that the '86 ban applies to civilian "assault" weapons and not full auto. When you deal with class III, you're dealing with a full array of "evil features" which are prohibitied on civilian "assault" weapons.

Turning to corporations, they're easy enough to form and you generally file paperwork (articles of incorporation) with the Secretary of State. You also have to ficticious business name approved and registered. As a corporation, you must conduct regular meetings by the board (yourself, your buddy Elmer) to conduct corporate business. You must also file for a taxpayer ID number with the IRS (even if you have no employees or are a non-profit corporation). It's not hard to do all these things, but it takes a little time and a little money.

TaxPhd · January 9, 2002, 12:32 PM

Carbon_15,

The only reason to go the corp. route is if you as an individual can't get CLEO sign off.

You will never find a registered auto sear for an AR-15 under $500. Several thousand is the going rate.

A DIAS (drop-in auto sear) for an AR-15 for under $500 will be a pre-'81 DIAS. These cannot be used to make a non registered receiver gun full auto. Very illegal. Mere possession of a pre '81 DIAS and a non registered receiver AR-15 is very illegal.

Only legal conversion route for an AR-15 is with a registered DIAS or Lightning Link. Again, several thousand is the going rate.

HTH!

The Rock · January 9, 2002, 10:59 PM

Quote:

I'm under the impression that the '86 ban applies to civilian "assault" weapons and not full auto. When you deal with class III, you're dealing with a full array of "evil features" which are prohibitied on civilian "assault" weapons.

The 1986 ban was part of the firearm owner protection act, signed into law by Pres. Reagan. It forbids the registration of a machine gun for civilian ownership. Guns may be made and registered for LE and Govt use only. These weapons are know as Post-86 Dealer Samples. To have these transfered to you as a SOT require a demo letter from an LE agency. (The LE agency requests a demo of these weapon for training, SOPs, etc. You may only have 1 gun of a certain type. eg 1 MP5SD and 1 M16A2 and one M16/9.)

Anything part of the NFA registry, full auto, sbs, sbr, aow is exempted from the assault weapons ban of the 1994 crime bill fame. The 922 sections and all that. 'Evil features': bayo lug, flash hider, collapsible stock, grenade launcher [never mind these are DDs and part of the NFA...], pistol grip and mag that is not in said grip. You get 2 features in a post 1994 weapon. The third one is bad.

Only MGs are affected by the 1986 ban. SBRs, SBS, AOWs and suppressors can still be made for civilian ownership.

TR
(NFA sales dude)

Carbon_15 · January 10, 2002, 12:31 PM

What exactly is a Lightning link?

This full auto thing looks like its going to be an expensive endevor no mater how you slice it. Looks like a Mac is going to be about the cheapest at $1200-1500. What I really wanted was an M-16 but from what I gather here, those start at about $4500. Grrrrr, I feel infrindged.

TaxPhd · January 10, 2002, 01:33 PM

A lightning link allows full-auto fire by tripping the disconnector as the bolt closes. In normal configuration, it only allows full auto fire. Modifications allow for select fire. It is probably the cheapest way to go full auto in an AR-15.

January 8, 2002, 01:42 AM	#1
Carbon_15 Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 938	Corperations allowed to own Title 2 weapons..potential loophole? South Carolina recently made it legal for civilians to own full-auto weapons within the limitations of the federal law. As I was glancing over some of the litereature on the new law, I noticed that there are acceptions for Military, police, (no suprise there) and Corperations...what. Why havent I heard of this before. I dont know what all goes into forming a corperation but the idea of being able to buy brand new machine guns and other prohibited weapons without the limitations of legal civilian ownership (only modles made and registered prior to '86, prohibitively high prices) make this seam like a juicy loophole. Just think, a brand new suppresed P-90 for $1500, a NIB M-16 A2 for $800, a SAW for $2000...these are FN's aproximate law enforcement prices...compair this to a pre-86 M-16 at 6-10K. there is a supressed 9mm CAR-15 full auto on gunsamerica right now for $1550, but its a LEO only...the same gun for civilian would be sale triple or more. Could someone more versed in business law explain to me why we dont all have kitchen table corperations for the purpose of personal ownership of cheap, new model,legal machineguns.

January 8, 2002, 09:05 PM	#3
The Rock Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 1999 Location: Occupied VA, CSA Posts: 351	bastiat is 100% correct on this. A non FFL/SOT Corp can buy transferables only. TR __________________ Molon Labe! Will YOU stand with ME?

January 9, 2002, 10:09 AM	#8
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	I'm under the impression that the '86 ban applies to civilian "assault" weapons and not full auto. When you deal with class III, you're dealing with a full array of "evil features" which are prohibitied on civilian "assault" weapons. Turning to corporations, they're easy enough to form and you generally file paperwork (articles of incorporation) with the Secretary of State. You also have to ficticious business name approved and registered. As a corporation, you must conduct regular meetings by the board (yourself, your buddy Elmer) to conduct corporate business. You must also file for a taxpayer ID number with the IRS (even if you have no employees or are a non-profit corporation). It's not hard to do all these things, but it takes a little time and a little money. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

January 9, 2002, 12:32 PM	#9
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	Carbon_15, The only reason to go the corp. route is if you as an individual can't get CLEO sign off. You will never find a registered auto sear for an AR-15 under $500. Several thousand is the going rate. A DIAS (drop-in auto sear) for an AR-15 for under $500 will be a pre-'81 DIAS. These cannot be used to make a non registered receiver gun full auto. Very illegal. Mere possession of a pre '81 DIAS and a non registered receiver AR-15 is very illegal. Only legal conversion route for an AR-15 is with a registered DIAS or Lightning Link. Again, several thousand is the going rate. HTH! __________________ TaxPhd "Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it." "Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat as necessary." - B. Braxton

January 10, 2002, 01:33 PM	#12
TaxPhd Senior Member Join Date: October 29, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 534	A lightning link allows full-auto fire by tripping the disconnector as the bolt closes. In normal configuration, it only allows full auto fire. Modifications allow for select fire. It is probably the cheapest way to go full auto in an AR-15. __________________ TaxPhd "Those who live by the sword are probably pretty f***ing good at it." "Instructions for a successful gunfight: Front Sight, Press Trigger, repeat as necessary." - B. Braxton

January 8, 2002, 02:02 AM	#2
bastiat Senior Member Join Date: February 14, 2001 Posts: 1,771	You would still be bound by the 86 ban. The corporation exemption (I hate the term 'loophole') is for chief LEO signoff only on NFA weapons. The only way you could own a post -86 full auto weapon would be to become a FFL dealer that deals in title II weapons.

January 8, 2002, 11:49 PM	#4
Carbon_15 Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 938	So thats why. Thanks for the info guys. This whole full-auto thing is so new to me. Untangeling the pages of legalese and the gunshop rumors can be a bit of a chore. So the only was for a civilian to legaly own title 2 weapons of the non-pre86 flavor is to become a FFL holder licensed for full autos and such. what is involved in obtaining an FFL sans an actual gun business. Not for the purpose of fraud mind you, just to aid in expanding a personal collection? Thanks, Jason

January 9, 2002, 12:16 AM	#5
ViLLain Senior Member Join Date: November 24, 2001 Location: Out West Posts: 431	Machine guns are also treated differently. In 1986, as part of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act (FOPA), Congress prohibited individuals from owning machine guns, and made it an affirmative defense that the machine gun was registered before the act took effect (which was 5/19/86). See 18 U.S.C. sec. 922(o) for the law. Thus as an individual you can only legally own a machine gun that was registered before that date. Any registered after that date can only be owned by SOT's, law enforcement, and government entities. A SOT may not keep these machine guns after surrendering his SOT. In order to transfer one of these machine guns, the SOT must have a request from an agency able to own one for a demonstration. Or an order from one of those agencies to buy one. A class 2 SOT can make machine guns for research and development purposes, or for sale to dealers as samples, or for sale to government entities. These are commonly called post-86 machine guns. SOT - special (occupational) taxpayer Source: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.e...st/nfa_faq.txt

January 9, 2002, 02:10 AM	#7
Carbon_15 Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 938	So i guess what you guys are saying is that there is no legal way for a civilian to own post 86 machine guns. The closest you could get is obtaining a SOT, but then you can only have them for demonstration purposes or after a LEA has writen you a letter saying they want to buy one...right. So we are stuck with the rediculously overpriced pre-86 stuff..no if ands or buts. What I want to know is why is a new M-16 more dangerous than a pre-86 example I'm going to try to get one or two pre-86 full autos before my first baby gets here. Lord knows my gun buying days will be over for a while afterward. Since you all know more than me about the title 2 laws, what says mother government on conversions. In my undertanding, the parts that make a gun full auto are what have to have been regestered prior to 86. Can I buy a legal, pre-86 machine gun part and use it to convert a new gun? Im most interested in converting an Ar15 and Mac11 9mm. The Mac I'm looking at is a pre-ban (assault weapon ban that is) with a threaded barrel. A suppressor and whatever parts make it full auto would make a very fun range toy and a very effecent way to turn money into noise. I have also seen quite a few reggestered auto sear for AR-15's on gun broker for nder $500. Since I already own some AR's that would make an economical machinegun. Could I hav ethe auto sear instaled in one of my new AR's without breaking the law, or does the whole gun have to be pre-86?

January 10, 2002, 12:31 PM	#11
Carbon_15 Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2001 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 938	What exactly is a Lightning link? This full auto thing looks like its going to be an expensive endevor no mater how you slice it. Looks like a Mac is going to be about the cheapest at $1200-1500. What I really wanted was an M-16 but from what I gather here, those start at about $4500. Grrrrr, I feel infrindged.