Would repeaters have saved Custer?

[Slamfire]

I made a pretty intensive study of the Custer fiasco for personal reasons, and I don't think even AK or AR weapons would have saved the force, although Indian casualties certainly would have been higher. The same goes for better training or soldier quality. The odds were just too mismatched.
Custer was a very aggressive commander, and that usually worked well during the Indian Wars, but not always.

I have read several accounts and it was a fiasco for Custer's command all the way. He split his command under units commanded by Major Reno and Captain Benteen. There is evidence that Major Reno was drunk that morning and Captain Benteen hated Custer. Once Custer charged into the Indian Village his plan completely fell apart. Outside of having massed Vickers machine guns, or "phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range", Custer was doomed.

Someday I would like to walk over the ground at the Little Big Horn to get a feel of the land. I have done this at a number of Civil War Battle fields, Gettysburg for one, and once on the ground, you can understand the how/why of unit engagement. When you stand on little round top, you can see how the lay of the land determined the tactics of Col Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain. I think walking around Custer Hill, seeing the lay of the land, would give a good idea why Custer's Command was shot to pieces.

[dahermit]

There is evidence that Major Reno was drunk that morning...

That morning and every morning (records of his purchases of booze from the post sutler suggest he was seldom sober) . However, I do not think that it would be appropriate to blame Custer's death on Reno for not going to Custer's aid...he was too busy trying to just survive the Indians trying to kill him to help anyone else.

[us920669]

I'm looking harder and harder at Benteen. I don't think he expected a massacre, but he probably wanted to see Custer with egg on his face. He most likely picked up a whole lot of PTSD in the Civil War. The circumstances surrounding his separation from US service seem pretty disgraceful.
And I'm glad to see others attach importance to the fact that Crook got stopped cold by Unified Sioux under Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse. They definitely remind me of Lee and Jackson.

[dahermit]

I'm looking harder and harder at Benteen. I don't think he expected a massacre, but he probably wanted to see Custer with egg on his face.

I would not be too hard on Benteen...when he joined with Reno, Reno was under siege by the Indians and had been mauled badly in the woods and crossing the river. Having been informed of this by Reno, I do not think it was unreasonable for Benteen and Reno to remain together in that defensive position. If Reno and Benteen defeated the Indians, they could have gone to find Custer...but as it was, the Indians were still firing with effect upon them. In all, it would appear that Reno and Benteen's men hunkered down and did not seem to be able to fire with effect upon the Indians with their Trapdoor Springfields. Central to the question is, why not?
Only 2% of the recovered empty casings showed marks from having to be pried out of the chambers, so that indicates the overwhelming majority of the Trapdoors were functioning as they should. Why then, did the combined Reno and Benteen force continue to be on the defensive (remained in the depression in the hills), and not account for any significant number of Indian kills? They had working guns, and Benteen's packs with the ammo.

[wuluf]

My library has three lineal feet of Custer books, so I'll opine.

How much is that, by volume?

[kilimanjaro]

The volume is directly proportional to the hot air temperature around here !

If you haven't read at least one of the two books on the recent archaeology done on the battlefield, you are working with outdated concepts and theories about the event that probably are not borne out by the facts, as far as they can be known.

We'll never be done debating the issue, that's the only real known that all can agree on.

[us920669]

I don't have an issue with Benteen staying with Reno. That was correct. However, Custer sent Benteen several urgent messages to come up, since he had the extra ammo and more soldiers. Benteen, who was several miles away, selected the pace of "walk", I think the slowest thing a horse can do. If he had made haste, maybe all he would have done was get even more soldiers killed, or maybe he could have helped Custer make a fighting withdrawal to Reno, thereby avoiding the greater disaster. We'll never really know.

[dahermit]

Custer sent Benteen several urgent messages to come up, since he had the extra ammo and more soldiers.

I know of only one pertinent message, ”Come on. Big Village. Be Quick. Bring packs.” The message was carried by a messenger (Martini), whose command of English was questionable. When asked by Benteen, what was happening, the messenger answered, "Dem Injuns, they skedaddle!" This may have led Benteen to believe that there was no imminent danger to Custer, no longer any hurry for reinforcement or need for "packs". Then when joining with Reno, the error of his thinking would have become apparent, but it was too late. In any event I would have liked to have sat in on the hearings in the aftermath of the disaster. The only thing we can be sure of, is that we will never likely know for sure exactly what happened.

[SIGSHR]

What from I have read of the Little Big Horn it was a poor position, on a hillside
but no cover or concealment. Custer fought a poor battle, very poor reconnaissance, divided his forces, they were not mutually supporting, outnumbered about 5:1. Rorke's Drift, the British had the advantage of a reasonably good and compact position, Zulu fire was inaccurate, plus most of the fighting was at night.

[4V50 Gary]

In attacking the Indian village, Reno was alongside an Indian Scout whose brains were splattered all over him. That was a rather unnerving to even a Civil War veteran like Reno and is likely to have affected his performance.

I forgot which book I read of the Indians' accounts of the battle, but suposedly Custer was among the first to fall. While the Indians didn't know it was Custer who was attacking them, they shot down a buckskin clad man who was leading the charge across the river.

[us920669]

Dahermit is right, there was really only one message. I didn't look that up, too busy with two churches and a board meeting last night, but ...
what we have is a badly-worded verbal statement given under questioning by someone with poor English skills, and a short, concise note written by the detachment commander. I think Custer even added "PS. Bring packs", which everyone knew meant ammo, after mentioning packs in the main body of the note. If Benteen got the wrong impression, he tried awful hard to get it.
I'm working from memory again but I think that was Reno's first crack at combat command, and he was plenty scared and confused, but the inquiry decided that he did OK, while Benteen came in for some criticism. The idea though, especially back then, would have been - "let's not go looking for villains in blue, the villains are out there living in tepees."

[Andy Blozinski]

I suspect that he considered this his last likely opportunity for headline grabbing glory.

He certainly got that!

[T. O'Heir]

"...natives at Little Bighorn had bows and guns..." So did the Zulus, just not as many. No centuries of trade in Africa.
Custer, being an incompetent, split his force of 700 men and attacked a small town with an estimated more than 10,000 experienced, well armed, warriors against the advice of his scouts. No kind of technology would have helped.
Benteen and most of the other company commanders in the 7th had no use for Custer.
Reno was a very long way from being in his first combat command.

[mavracer]

From everything I've read and seen Custer's was a classic software problem not hardware.

I'm not sure they couldn't have survived with what they had given better leadership and tactics.

Good marksmanship counts IE battle of adobe walls three years earlier. 30 vs 700

[johnwilliamson062]

adobe walls

Rorke's Drift

prepared positions. In both cases nearly impervious to the attackers heaviest available weapons.
http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dew...ns/cannon.html
In both cases the defenders had heavy weapons that were more effective than the attackers. Some say the Alamo was held for fear of losing/abandoning the cannons garrisoned if a retreat was ordered.
Custer's men were just lying on the ground or behind anything they could find.
Totally different.

Arrogance & Narcissism if you prefer.


I thought the Gatling was packable, but I can't find any pictures of one packed or any descriptions of one. I know they were quite heavy when assembled and the main component may have been too heavy.
I would have brought elephants. Lots of elephants.

[kilimanjaro]

The Gatling guns could be towed on wheels for short distance over constructed roads, or broken down and cargoed on several mules, then reassembled for use.

If taken to Little Big Horn, they would probably have been reassembled near the Reno-Benteen action, and not up front with Custer, although they could certainly provided plunging fire on the village in support of Reno's attack.

Taking the Gatling's probably would have delayed arrival by a day: the pincer movement of Custer, Gibbon, and Terry might have thus succeeded, ending the 1876 war that day.

There were perhaps 2,000 Indian warriors in the camp, not 10,000 as some claim.

[TimSr]

Bad military intelligence. Custer thought he was pursuing a single Sioux tribe numbering hundreds. What he attacked was federation of Sioux tribes numbering thousands. He took a fly swatter to kill a bee, and instead whacked a hornet's nest with it.

The Sioux had the leadership, the experience, the training, and the will, and the numbers, and the home field advantage. I don't think there were weapons of the day that could have made up for it. They might have changed the casualty numbers, but that's about it.

[HiBC]

I have forgotten nearly all the details of the battle.
But I did go out and walk around at the Little Big Horn in the summer.
And I just sat quiet a while.
It is fair to say battlefields tend not to be environmentally comfortable.
Whether at the Chosin Reservoir,Wanat,Afghanistan,a lot of Vietnam,for examples(No,I was not there)
Its likely that a whole lot of troops have noticed "Our setting leaves a lot to be desired".I said it that way in defference to our Moderators.
I have also seen a McClellan saddle,and the rigging and kit of a Trooper.
Rather minimalist.

A wool uniform,relentless sun,hot dry country,thirsty,cactus everyplace,horses freaking out,no where to run,no cover,nowhere to hide..chaos..

Was it Ray Stevens wrote the song ? "Please Mr Custer...."
I know from antelope hunting,if you know the relatively flat country well,you can pretty much disappear.What looks flat has low ground.

Country you never been to,versus country you hunt and live in

Some other things I forget...was it MOSCOMS ? Mass,objective,surprise,command and communications organization? Maneuver?Supply? Its been a long time.
Seems like Custer was on the wrong end of a lot of that.

I mostly just remember it seemed like a bad idea to be there amongst armed indigenous people with grievances.

Then I fired up the old Triumph and rode home.(1972 T-150V,bugs in the teeth)

It was good to sit with the Ghosts.

I rode from northern Colorado,to Jackson,Wy,to the Targhee Forest of Idaho,Followed the Salmon.Stopped in to visit at Darby/Hamilton.On up tp Priest Lake,Idaho.Then to Glacier.
Then to the Little Big Horn.
I guess I could say I was struck by the contrast.

[SIGSHR]

There was the problem with the heads of the copper cases being torn off by the extractors of the 45-70s. Might that have been a problem with the Gatling guns ?

[johnwilliamson062]

The gatling guns were relatively unreliable. I believe that, even as limited as their use was in The Civil War, one lesson was to keep them together in order to increase chances at least one stayed running to defend the position. Multiple reasons, but poor extraction being one I have seen cited.

I read a little bit more on this after Kilimanjaro supported my belief they could be packed. Mules are, generally speaking, stronger, smarter, and more hardy than horses("hybrid vigor"), so I was wondering why they would slow things down so drastically if correctly packed. It seems the issue was Custer was offered some of the most ragged pack animals you could imagine. Animals that were held in reserve and probably should have been shot or put out to pasture long before the campaign.

[us920669]

Maybe they gave him the crummiest mules to make sure he participated in the pincer, rather than crashing in a day early so he could take all the credit (White House here I come). Of course, he had reason to believe he had been detected, so he had to move quickly.
The splitting-up of forces was actually"correct" given his understanding of the situation. The "village" was actually a campsite, just days old, with a footprint about as big as a small city.
Most of Reno's career was spent in staff positions. He was the colonel trying to track down Mosby, but that entailed mostly police work.
I don't remember where I saw it, but some European arms maker has a tripod-mounted, belt-fed HMG, maybe 20 or 40 m/m or even RPG. Now, that might have worked for Custer, that and some sandbags and railroad ties.

[us920669]

I think I read somewhere that the extraction problem was caused by verdigris on the cases - the green crud that builds up on copper, especially in hot climates. They knew about it, and NCOs checked at inspection to make sure your cases were all clean and shiny.

[Steffy]

Common sense and better intelligence were lacking.

Before the battle and during the area was in the middle of a severe drought and the Native American forces were able to track General Custer's forces by their dust. It might be true that General Custer's intent was to capture Native American women and children to hold as hostages to force a withdrawal of the Native American forces in the area.

This is an example of military stupidity (General Custer).

Possibly drone acquired intelligence combined with selected strikes would have ensured General Custer's survival. This combined with SAW type arms might have saved the day.

In the first Terminator movie Arnold asked for a 35 watt plasma rifle but failed to acquire it being that it had not been invented yet.

[44 AMP]

Phased plasma rifle in 40 watt range
:d

[shafter]

No, they probably wouldn't have made a difference. What would have saved Custer is keeping his force consolidated and utilizing aimed fire.

I don't think Custer was stupid. History shows that he was an aggressive and successful commander (think Patton) in both the Civil War and Indian fighting. Custer's tactics were successful in the past but on that particular day he was a victim of everything going wrong. It can happen to the best.