Need help identifying German Rifle

marmot · July 13, 2010, 06:05 PM

I am looking for information on an old German rifle.
On the barrel it has Emil R Martin & Sohn Bonn A Rhein.
I have found a couple of similar guns but nothing the same.DSCN5901.JPG

DSCN5902.JPG

DSCN5903.JPG

Jim Watson · July 13, 2010, 06:59 PM

Beats me. There were a lot of small gunmakers in Germany before WW II and even more before WW I. Getting a business report and biography of old Emil and the boys is going to be tough.

What do all those widgets and buttons DO?

marmot · July 13, 2010, 07:05 PM

It seems to me that the screw on the right cocks the gun and the one on the left is the trigger. The little button may be some kind of safety.
There is no trigger where you would expect to find it only a piece of wood shaped liked a trigger

marmot · July 13, 2010, 07:29 PM

Next to the button it says knopf abzug system. I believe that can be translated as button trigger system

Jim Watson · July 13, 2010, 07:54 PM

Wow.
John Browning's Thumb Trigger .22 all grown up.

I have never heard of the like.

Show more pictures.

marmot · July 13, 2010, 08:34 PM

Here is a few more Pictures.
The barrel has on the side a crown and S.t.m.G. N22gr then in another spot on the side the same thing but 18gr.
Around on the next side down is the letters R G and U each with a crown over them. Then 10.5mm with a 60 under that and 9/28 under that.
More on the bottom B G U and E each with a crown. a serial #
also 10.75 X6Q
8.9mm
74 1/2
2/25
and a gs with a circle around it.
All interesting stuff

Jim Watson · July 13, 2010, 08:46 PM

Strange, looks like it is marked for two different calibers, 10.8x60R and 9.3x74R. Perhaps it was rebored, relined, or rebarrelled.

The rest of that stuff is standard German pre-Nazi proof marks.

marmot · July 13, 2010, 08:57 PM

You may be right. The markings don't appear to be all made at the same time

James K · July 13, 2010, 11:03 PM

The crown/U is the final definitive proof; the crown/G is the proof for rifled barrels, the crown/B means that the proof was done in the finished condition; the crown/E is the proof for express rifle barrels. But the crown/R is the key, as it is the mark for a reproof after repair or alteration; the second set of regular proofs (U-G*) was done at the same time to be sure the alteration did not make the rifle unsafe. The alteration seems to have been reboring and re-rifling the barrel to a larger caliber, done in September, 1928.

The St.m.G means the rifle was proved with a Stahlmantelgeschoss or steel jacket bullet, the number is the weight of the bullet in grams (the heavier obviously for the new larger caliber).

A very interesting and valuable rifle, but I can't come anywhere near putting a dollar value on it. I would think in the medium four figures to the right buyer.

*Edited to note that the second proof set does not include the crown/B or the crown/E. The former was not needed as the gun is obviously in the finished state; the latter was probably omitted because the new caliber was not considered an "express" caliber.

Jim

marmot · July 13, 2010, 11:07 PM

Thanks for the info. Definitely an interesting rifle
Thanks again for the additional info

mapsjanhere · July 14, 2010, 03:16 PM

Very interesting history just in proof marks, would be great to see a chamber cast, that 10.75x60 is a dozy. My guess would be the old 11x60R with a slightly narrower jacketed round.

marmot · July 14, 2010, 05:43 PM

Found the forearm
Here are pictures of the side and bottom of the forearm and the gun with the forearm attached

James K · July 14, 2010, 07:35 PM

If there is one word that sums up that gun it is "Teutonic." It isn't just marked as being German, the whole gun screams "Ich bin deutscher!"

Jim

Scorch · July 15, 2010, 02:49 PM

The design is generally called a jaeger, i.e. a hunting rifle designed for carrying while actively hunting game. The thumb trigger is curious, I have never seen one like it, although I have seen thumb triggers on other German rifles. And yes, "Teutonic" is the descriptive word for that one. Beautiful!

FWIW, 10.75X60Rmm is indeed a version of the 11mm Mauser. There were two loadings, one for the 1871 rifle (11.15X60Rmm), the other for the 71/84 rifle (which had deeper rifling, hence the smaller bore diameter), with slightly higher pressure and a paper patched bullet (very similar to our own 45-70 loadings in 405 and 500 gr versions). The 11X60Rmm was a very well respected cartridge in its day, and was even loaded in a rimless version after the advent of smokeless powder repeaters. Ballistics are close to 45-70 ballistics, being a 44 caliber 385 gr bullet over 60+/- gr of BP launching at about 1,400 fps (slightly slower in the older version). I shot my 11X60Rmm 1871 rifle for several years, loading it with paper-patched cast 350 gr .429" bullets (designed for 444 Marlin) over 60 gr of BP. Very satisfactory.

mapsjanhere · July 15, 2010, 03:45 PM

In regards to the thumb trigger, since the weapon was custom made shortly after WWI, a war injury seems the most likely reason for the unconventional construction. As fancy as the weapon is made, the special trigger is not a huge extra expense. It would also go with the rebarrel, the 9.3x74R is ballisticly similar to the 9.3x62, and, from my experience, that one has a decent kick. Someone missing several fingers might have trouble controlling such a gun, so cutting down on recoil by using an older slower round might have been the reason for the rework.
BTW it looks like the horn cap on the forearm is missing.

Jim Watson · July 15, 2010, 04:44 PM

Could be. I have a war loot shotgun that came with a vertical handle screwed into the foreend. Neatly done but probably not by the gunmaker. I figure a WW I vet with an injured left arm had it put on so he could keep hunting.
It is a French Verney Carron, no doubt confiscated by the Germans who lost it to the Americans in the Occupation.

Mauserlein · July 11, 2012, 02:09 PM

Emil Martin was a well known Gunsmith in Bonn Germany. I knew him personally, he was also a crack pistol shot and member of the German free pistol team at the 1936 olympics in Berlin. He sold his shop about 1966. His hunting rifles with knob trigger (Knopfabzug) were mainly used by handicapped persons. He claim that Kaiser Wilhelm, who had a crippled left arm like his dign.
Emil Martin passed away about 1974.

Mauserlein

Stressfire · July 11, 2012, 02:55 PM

Better late than never

Welcome to the forum

Winchester_73 · July 15, 2012, 07:10 PM

Resurrection!

RamItOne · July 17, 2012, 06:27 PM

Waiting for the necro police to show up.

Would be nice to see if he ever got an appraisal.

July 13, 2010, 06:05 PM	#1
marmot Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2010 Posts: 8	Need help identifying German Rifle I am looking for information on an old German rifle. On the barrel it has Emil R Martin & Sohn Bonn A Rhein. I have found a couple of similar guns but nothing the same.DSCN5901.JPG DSCN5902.JPG DSCN5903.JPG

July 13, 2010, 11:03 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The crown/U is the final definitive proof; the crown/G is the proof for rifled barrels, the crown/B means that the proof was done in the finished condition; the crown/E is the proof for express rifle barrels. But the crown/R is the key, as it is the mark for a reproof after repair or alteration; the second set of regular proofs (U-G) was done at the same time to be sure the alteration did not make the rifle unsafe. The alteration seems to have been reboring and re-rifling the barrel to a larger caliber, done in September, 1928. The St.m.G means the rifle was proved with a Stahlmantelgeschoss or steel jacket bullet, the number is the weight of the bullet in grams (the heavier obviously for the new larger caliber). A very interesting and valuable rifle, but I can't come anywhere near putting a dollar value on it. I would think in the medium four figures to the right buyer. Edited to note that the second proof set does not include the crown/B or the crown/E. The former was not needed as the gun is obviously in the finished state; the latter was probably omitted because the new caliber was not considered an "express" caliber. Jim Last edited by James K; July 13, 2010 at 11:25 PM.

July 13, 2010, 11:07 PM	#10
marmot Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2010 Posts: 8	Thanks for the info. Definitely an interesting rifle Thanks again for the additional info Last edited by marmot; July 13, 2010 at 11:43 PM.

July 14, 2010, 03:16 PM	#11
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Very interesting history just in proof marks, would be great to see a chamber cast, that 10.75x60 is a dozy. My guess would be the old 11x60R with a slightly narrower jacketed round. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 15, 2010, 02:49 PM	#14
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The design is generally called a jaeger, i.e. a hunting rifle designed for carrying while actively hunting game. The thumb trigger is curious, I have never seen one like it, although I have seen thumb triggers on other German rifles. And yes, "Teutonic" is the descriptive word for that one. Beautiful! FWIW, 10.75X60Rmm is indeed a version of the 11mm Mauser. There were two loadings, one for the 1871 rifle (11.15X60Rmm), the other for the 71/84 rifle (which had deeper rifling, hence the smaller bore diameter), with slightly higher pressure and a paper patched bullet (very similar to our own 45-70 loadings in 405 and 500 gr versions). The 11X60Rmm was a very well respected cartridge in its day, and was even loaded in a rimless version after the advent of smokeless powder repeaters. Ballistics are close to 45-70 ballistics, being a 44 caliber 385 gr bullet over 60+/- gr of BP launching at about 1,400 fps (slightly slower in the older version). I shot my 11X60Rmm 1871 rifle for several years, loading it with paper-patched cast 350 gr .429" bullets (designed for 444 Marlin) over 60 gr of BP. Very satisfactory. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

July 13, 2010, 06:59 PM	#2
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Beats me. There were a lot of small gunmakers in Germany before WW II and even more before WW I. Getting a business report and biography of old Emil and the boys is going to be tough. What do all those widgets and buttons DO?

July 13, 2010, 07:05 PM	#3
marmot Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2010 Posts: 8	It seems to me that the screw on the right cocks the gun and the one on the left is the trigger. The little button may be some kind of safety. There is no trigger where you would expect to find it only a piece of wood shaped liked a trigger

July 13, 2010, 07:29 PM	#4
marmot Junior Member Join Date: July 13, 2010 Posts: 8	Next to the button it says knopf abzug system. I believe that can be translated as button trigger system

July 13, 2010, 07:54 PM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Wow. John Browning's Thumb Trigger .22 all grown up. I have never heard of the like. Show more pictures.

July 13, 2010, 08:46 PM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Strange, looks like it is marked for two different calibers, 10.8x60R and 9.3x74R. Perhaps it was rebored, relined, or rebarrelled. The rest of that stuff is standard German pre-Nazi proof marks.

July 14, 2010, 07:35 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	If there is one word that sums up that gun it is "Teutonic." It isn't just marked as being German, the whole gun screams "Ich bin deutscher!" Jim

July 15, 2010, 03:45 PM	#15
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	In regards to the thumb trigger, since the weapon was custom made shortly after WWI, a war injury seems the most likely reason for the unconventional construction. As fancy as the weapon is made, the special trigger is not a huge extra expense. It would also go with the rebarrel, the 9.3x74R is ballisticly similar to the 9.3x62, and, from my experience, that one has a decent kick. Someone missing several fingers might have trouble controlling such a gun, so cutting down on recoil by using an older slower round might have been the reason for the rework. BTW it looks like the horn cap on the forearm is missing. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

July 15, 2010, 04:44 PM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Could be. I have a war loot shotgun that came with a vertical handle screwed into the foreend. Neatly done but probably not by the gunmaker. I figure a WW I vet with an injured left arm had it put on so he could keep hunting. It is a French Verney Carron, no doubt confiscated by the Germans who lost it to the Americans in the Occupation.

July 11, 2012, 02:09 PM	#17
Mauserlein Junior Member Join Date: July 11, 2012 Posts: 1	Emil Martin Bonn Emil Martin was a well known Gunsmith in Bonn Germany. I knew him personally, he was also a crack pistol shot and member of the German free pistol team at the 1936 olympics in Berlin. He sold his shop about 1966. His hunting rifles with knob trigger (Knopfabzug) were mainly used by handicapped persons. He claim that Kaiser Wilhelm, who had a crippled left arm like his dign. Emil Martin passed away about 1974. Mauserlein

July 11, 2012, 02:55 PM	#18
Stressfire Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2011 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,497	Better late than never Welcome to the forum __________________ "The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank" - Montgomery Scott

July 15, 2012, 07:10 PM	#19
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Resurrection! __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

July 17, 2012, 06:27 PM	#20
RamItOne Senior Member Join Date: May 24, 2011 Posts: 990	Waiting for the necro police to show up. Would be nice to see if he ever got an appraisal.