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Old February 23, 2015, 01:42 PM   #1
imp
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"Registered" firearms.

Perhaps it's because I have lived only in "free" states in the union, I am confused when I read about "Registered" firearms. While NICS may be de facto registration, it's a pretty poor one, simply because many states don't mandate a check on private sales.

My question is, which states/districts/territories maintain a true registry of firearms and owners?
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Old February 23, 2015, 02:07 PM   #2
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It depends on what you mean by a "true registry"?

Any place that requires any kind of form to be filled out, or permit to buy/possess has some kind of registry. Different places get more specific.

Several states used an FOID system (Firearm Owner Identification Document, (usually a card). This is a permit system.

Some systems only track "imp (who lives at XXX gunowner street, hometown usa) owns a gun", or "imp applied to buy a gun".

Others, (like NY) go further. They keep the data that "imp (address) owns a S&W .357 Magnum, 6" barrel, ser# N12345"

What is a "true registry" in your eyes?
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Old February 23, 2015, 04:20 PM   #3
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Any state that requires what is referred to as an "FOID" (Firearms Owners IDentification).

For example, New York requires owners of handguns to register them, and IF you manage to get a carry permit, any and all guns you may wish to carry MUST be listed on the back of the permit.

Then there are states like Pennsylvania and Connecticut (and probably a few others) that create a database by requiring all sales through FFLs to be reported to the State Police. (Post Sandy Hook, Connecticut changed that to include ALL transfers, even private, face-to-face -- but that was already in place for handguns.) In PA, face-to-face transfers are still legal so the data base is technically not a registry, because it is not complete. However, the State Police and many local PDs treat it as if it is a complete registry. It's common in PA for cops making a traffic stop of an armed driver to run the gun against the "registry" and confiscate it if there's no record that the person bought it -- even though it may have been purchased legally through other avenues, or possibly brought in when the owner moved to PA from a free state.

Last edited by Aguila Blanca; February 23, 2015 at 08:47 PM.
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Old February 23, 2015, 05:30 PM   #4
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That's very interesting about PA...I will dig into that issue as well.

What I meant about a "true" registry is like NY has, where the particular firearm serial number, owner, and address are listed, and to what degree that info is available to the general public. More interested in how particular firearms are tracked, and who has access to that system.
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Old February 23, 2015, 06:41 PM   #5
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In PA only handguns are registered qith the state police. There is a seperate form that is sent to state police when a handgun is purchased. All long gun transactions through an FFL are subject to the state instant check only the records of the sale are not sent to state police.
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Old February 23, 2015, 06:49 PM   #6
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Not sure of where in PA Aguila is talking about, but Ive never heard of anyone getting their firearm confiscated during a traffic stop unless they were breaking a law. Im not disputing it but in North Central PA most all LEO I know are very pro-gun
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Old February 23, 2015, 07:18 PM   #7
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California, a favorite bête noire but I live here, has partial registration, in the sense that it is incomplete.

CA-DOJ maintains AFS - the Automated Firearms System. Information from sales through FFLs is submitted via the DROS - Dealer's Record Of Sale - system to CA-DOJ and is added to AFS. That records owner name and address, and make/model/caliber/serial number of the purchased weapons.

New residents have been required to 'voluntarily' register guns they bring into California since January 1, 1998. The info on those forms is entered into AFS.

A few other sources feed into AFS - intrafamily transfers and inherited firearms need forms filed with the State, and guns listed on the relatively rare CCW are also added. C&R licensees must file paper on guns they acquire out of state and bring back to CA.

But: transfer through an FFL was required only in 1991, and collecting the weapon information for long guns through DROS and the forms began in 2014.

Setting aside all the legally non-conforming transfers and imports, firearms not transferred inside California since 1990, and those moved here before 1998, and long guns before 2014 all will not be registered.

Similar to what Aguila Blanca posted, anecdotes suggest some police agencies (and, apparently, many newspaper writers) believe that all guns in California are registered.

Presuming the law stays the same, I estimate that it should take about 50 years to get substantially all guns registered - 2040 or so for handguns, 2065 or so for long guns. AFS will be incomplete until something like those dates, and then we can worry about the inaccuracies ...

CA does not require re-registration on a time-schedule - once is all there is - nor when one might change residences, or get married and change names (if one were so old-fashioned as to do that).

California does not require that a gun be taken to a government agency to be inspected and verify information to register it (I believe Washington DC requires that).
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Old February 23, 2015, 08:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigleverman
Not sure of where in PA Aguila is talking about, but Ive never heard of anyone getting their firearm confiscated during a traffic stop unless they were breaking a law. Im not disputing it but in North Central PA most all LEO I know are very pro-gun
http://forum.pafoa.org/
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Old February 23, 2015, 09:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
Any state that requires what is referred to as an "FOID" (Firearms Owners IDentification).

For example, New York requires owners of handguns to register them, and IF you manage to get a carry permit, any and all guns you may wish to carry MUST be listed on the back of the permit.
There are no firearms listed on or tied to an Illinois FOID, nor is there a registry. And I know 2 people who have a FOID and don't own any firearms.

And while you are required to keep a record for 10 years of anyone you sell a firearm to a copy is not sent to the state.

eta: IOW the state of Illinois has no idea if I have 0, 5, 10, or 100 firearms.

Last edited by Armed_Chicagoan; February 23, 2015 at 09:23 PM.
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Old February 23, 2015, 09:56 PM   #10
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I like the KISS program here in Virginia. When we buy a gun from a FFL, we go through the federal and state check, pay for the weapon and leave with it. That's it.

I was talking to a friend today when I was getting my car inspected and we got to talking about guns when he asked me about the spent 38 special shells in the floor. He said his cousin was stopped by a State Trooper a while back when he saw a handgun exposed in the passenger seat (he had no CCL). The trooper asked him if it was loaded and his reply was "yes, it wouldn't be any good if it wasn't". The trooper asked to see it and took it back to his cruiser. He apparently checked out the serial number and came back, gave the gun back to him and said "have a nice day". The troopers in the sticks understand.
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Old February 23, 2015, 11:34 PM   #11
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but any firearm I've bought since a call to the BATF was required here in Missouri, they know about right down to my address and the serial number of the firearm. Before that call was mandated, the sheriff's department of the county you lived in had a record if it was a hand gun because you had to get a permit before hand and in order to purchase it. My guess would be that those records are kept and kept safe. Here in Missouri it has been one of those two ways for as long as I can remember. If you filled out any paperwork they know you own it, and if you've sold or traded it privately, they'll be expecting a paper trail to follow to find it should they ever wish to. We may not have to 'register' like in the communist states so to speak... but they're registered none the less.
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Old February 24, 2015, 12:32 AM   #12
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They don't necessarily "know" any information about your firearms.

What goes through the check (at least the electronic check system) is your name, date of birth, place of birth, race, sex, residency, social security number (optional), and type of firearm - handgun, long gun, or other.

These are supposed to be destroyed after 48 hours IIRC.

The rest of the stuff that goes on the paperwork (like your address and the serial number) has to be kept locked up by the FFL for 20 years and given to the ATF if they surrender their license. The ATF can audit the paperwork once a year for correctness (a small number of papers taken to check) and any specific inquiry can't be done without a warrant, at least as far as I know.

There's no registry because the information isn't available at any given time. It is kept, but unlike an electronic search system, you really have to know exactly what gun and purchaser you're looking for already.

States may have more restrictive schemes though
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Old February 24, 2015, 03:17 AM   #13
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For example, New York requires owners of handguns to register them, and IF you manage to get a carry permit, any and all guns you may wish to carry MUST be listed on the back of the permit.
I grew up in NY, officially leaving the state as a residence in 79. I am absolutely certain of the accuracy of my information up to that point in time, and am 98-99% certain the pertinent facts have not changed since, so I must correct this statement, slightly.

NYS does NOT allow you to own ANY handguns until after it is registered. Period. A permit (with the gun on it, by make, caliber, barrel length and ser#) is required before you can possess the pistol, at all. Only Open Carry was allowed. (the standard permit. Special circumstances might qualify you for one of the rare (by NY standards) concealed carry permits, but ordinary folks (in the 70s) couldn't get them.)

5 sets of fingerprints, 4 "passport" type photographs, 3 character references, the fee ($20 at one time, now, I understand its $100?) a couple months wait (now a year in some places, or so I have heard), while every agency involved checks you out, and then, ultimately, entirely up to a judge to approve, or not, entirely at their whim. Each judge has their own ideas of what is suitable to be approved, or denied.

One judge I knew would only approve applications submitted for "hunting and sporting purposes". If self protection was the reason you applied for the permit (and you have to state the reason on the form) he would automatically disapprove your application.

Another judge, in the next county, would only approve permits for self protection. Any other reason, he would disapprove it.

Permits, being issued at the sold (pardon, sole) discretion of the issuing agency is still the situation that obtains in NY today (as far as I know). NY is NOT a 'shall issue" state, it is a "may issue" state.
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Old February 24, 2015, 07:40 AM   #14
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I will be interested to see what PA has to say. They didn't have any problem issuing a CCW to this Ohioan. Guessing the AG has a website.
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Old February 24, 2015, 08:40 AM   #15
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I'm from NY and have a concealed carry permit issued in 1960. Also a certified instructor of the pistol issuing officer in my county. No where in the state law does it allow anyone to "0pen carry" except in uniform like private security guards etc. Open carry is just not legal.

On the other hand, the law is not enforced for hunters who hunt while carrying a handgun. But it is technically not legal if the letter of the law is followed.

The only handgun that does not have to be registered is a cap and ball revolver for which the owner does not possess or own powder, caps, and ball to load it. Own/possess those items and the revolver must be registered.
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Last edited by JimPage; February 24, 2015 at 08:43 AM. Reason: Added info.
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Old February 24, 2015, 09:34 AM   #16
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New Jersey requires a FOID card to purchase any firearm (even private FTF) or ammo. So I guess the polizei know who we are. (Although I know someone who has a card & doesn't own any guns, they got the card so they could buy their son's BB guns many years ago.)

When you buy ammo (from a retailer), your info is entered into a log book by the seller. Whether this is ever tracked, I don't know or see how, being as it's too cumbersome.

I don't know what info is reported by a retailer/FFL when buying a long gun, as I've never bought one here, but I've bought a couple 20 minutes over the bridge in Philly and I just showed my NJ FOID card, passed the NICS check & paid my money.

To buy a handgun, whether from a FFL or private FTF, a (4 part) permit is required. The info on the permit includes buyer, seller, mfgr, caliber & serial number & a copy is sent to state police & local PD. A copy is also retained by the buyer & seller. So, yes there's a registry for recently purchased handguns, but I don't know when the 'permit law' went into effect. What they don't know about are the guns I brought with me when I moved here (temporarily, but still here) that I accumulated over my time on the planet. There is a volunteer registry for all firearms for anyone who foolishly wishes to do so.

I get a kick out of the slanted news reports when someone's unregistered guns are found by the police.
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Old February 24, 2015, 09:53 AM   #17
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And in Florida it is illegal to maintain any registry or list. Heavy penalties attach to LEO/Gov't agancies.......including individual liability.

There are exceptions mentioned by statute, but they're few and specific.
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Old February 24, 2015, 10:25 AM   #18
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I wouldn't call NICS a registry, because they don't have the records. They have to go get the guy who owns the shop, and have him turn them over.

To me, a registry is something they can pull up on their computer (Or card files etc from way back when), and search by your name or other specific ID info, and pull up a list of what you own.

If they had to get your VIN, ask Chevy which car lot they sold it to, then ask the Car lot who they sold it to, then ask that guy who he sold it to, it's not really a registry.

Additionally, Are you asking about all guns, or do states that register only CERTAIN guns (i.e. handgun regsitries, assault weapon registries) count
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Old February 24, 2015, 02:59 PM   #19
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I didn't start this thread with a lot of specifics in mind. Just that the term "registered" is thrown around by the media and the anti-gun crowd, and even here on this forum, and I decided that the pursuit of clarity was worth a discussion.
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Old February 24, 2015, 05:08 PM   #20
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I think they throw it around out of ignorance, thinking that there's a requirement of some sort for universal registry of guns.
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Old February 24, 2015, 05:18 PM   #21
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Some of it is clear as mud to a blind man on a foggy day.
MD for example.

Fingerprinted, ID'd, gun's serial #, make, model & caliber documented & a fired case submitted for ballistic fingerprinting. Is that "registered"?

OK now they never have ever opened a single packet containing the fired case! Every barracks has 55 gal drums filled with the sealed envelopes.

Are they registered?

Until recently registration was voluntary. Now it isn't.

Are they registered?
I doubt anyone really knows, but there is a huge amount of paper & digital filing on them.
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Old February 24, 2015, 07:58 PM   #22
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What I meant about a "true" registry is like NY has, where the particular firearm serial number, owner, and address are listed, and to what degree that info is available to the general public. More interested in how particular firearms are tracked, and who has access to that system.
Since you have posted on a public forum dealing with guns, anyone can do some investigation to find out everything about you. I'd be more worried about everywhere you use a debit or credit card...........
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Old February 25, 2015, 09:04 PM   #23
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but any firearm I've bought since a call to the BATF was required here in Missouri, they know about right down to my address and the serial number of the firearm.
The NICS check doesn't require any serial numbers
They only know if it's a "long gun or hand gun"
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Old February 25, 2015, 10:35 PM   #24
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DC maintains full personal data, with photo and fingerprint and all firearms (handgun and long) by make, model and serial number.

Last year, during a routine traffic stop in DC, by uniformed FBI, which are federal but can act as local law enforcement in DC (along with several other agencies such as FPS) and have vehicle access to MPD computers, I was asked if I had firearms in the vehicle. Given there are under 4,000 gun owners in DC, that was a very unusual question and leads me to believe they have tied them to name and drivers license and any DC ownership will come up when they run the plate or DL for W/W though MPD.

Nota Bene: No, I have no "got sig?" "nra" or anything else on or in the car.
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Old February 26, 2015, 11:20 AM   #25
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Quote:
The NICS check doesn't require any serial numbers
They only know if it's a "long gun or hand gun"
Yes & no.

If you do NICS in MD the only contact agency is MSPD. They require way more than NICS does to process the query, including:
make & model (to "check against the banned by name" & copy list),
caliber (to verify the ballistic fingerprint case is the right caliber) &
electronic fingerprint (to verify you aren't a prohibited person) &
serial number (to check it isn't stolen).

NICS doesn't directly gather the info, but if you don't "voluntarily submit" it the check can't be performed.

Again, is it registered?
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