Not liking those cross draw rigs.

George Hill · July 6, 2000, 07:34 PM

Now - personally, I love the Cross Draw.
But... at shootin matches - I would rather not see them on the line.
Why?
Bacause most of the rigs I have seen (admitedly being new to this scene - I have not seen all that many. But I have seen enough to form an iron clad opinion!) are canted to the point that the muzzel of the loaded gun is pointing back at the folks watching. I understand the little step to turn the muzzle while drawing... yet this not enough I dont think. Before this step is made - that muzzel has already swept everyone. And quite often - the shooters hand is already in the gun before that pivoting step is made.
I dont think this is ideal.
I have seen a couple rigs that are cross draw, yet the gun is still pointed more down than back... this is better. One rig I saw, the gun was actually vertical - much much better! Thats the way to do it! The gun at no point swept anything other than the steel plates... and that shuffle pivot was not needed either.

*** Disclaimer ***

These opinions are personal and formed of the impressions of a CAS Novice.

Ned Roundtree · July 6, 2000, 08:50 PM

Good observations. Cross draws are probably the number one safety infraction we have. But mostly due to folks getting lazy and not doing the "SASS Shuffle" when drawing. Cross draw holsters are not to be more than 30 degrees from vertical. If someone at your club has violated this, speak to the head range officer. Otherwise, don't stand behind a man that doesn't dance when he pulls the cross draw.

Kent White · July 7, 2000, 07:41 AM

In the first CAS match I ever shot, I used a crossdraw. In order to "do it right" I used as straight draw holster slid around to the off side. Drew straight up, finger off the trigger, thumb off the hammer. Did not cock the gun until I had it pointed down range. Shot the match one handed, and beat Edzilla by something like .010 second.

Of course, that's the only time I've ever beat Edzilla!

I don't think that an authentic crossdraw holster is dangerous, as most of them that I've seen don't have much rake, if any at all.

Bill Mitchell · July 7, 2000, 10:28 AM

Howdy George,

First off,I use a crossdraw-a SASS legal crossdraw. By that,I mean that it doesn't depart from the vertical by more than 30 degrees. This rule is in place to prevent the holstered gun from sweeping those behind. That,plus the "crossdraw dance",make crossdraws as safe as straight draws. If someone doesn't do the dance,they get DQ'd-it's that simple.

At your next shoot,watch some straight draw shooters pull their guns. I think you'll see that a lot of them "drag" the gun from the holster,meaning that the muzzle is pointing backwards as the gun is being drawn. Now,this is a legal draw,and I've never seen anyone warned for doing this. So,using that example,a crossdraw done correctly from a legal rig can be safer than a legal draw from a straight hang holster,as the muzzle is pointed downrange as the gun is drawn and reholstered.

Crossdraws have been around since this game started. There are those who would outlaw them in a heartbeat if given the chance. But,for now,crossdraws are allowed-they just have some caveats that go along with them. If you're shooting in a SASS affiliated club,then SASS rules should apply,including the 30 degree rake of a crossdraw. If you see a rig that you think isn't legal,bring it up to the RO. If he won't do anything about it,then find another place to shoot.

SASS is shoting sport where a lot of things could go wrong,but rarely do. We must each be vigilant and call safety infractions when they occur. If we don't,then we don't feel comfortable,and the person breaking a rule or being unsafe isn't made aware of the problem-neither of these things is acceptable. Learn the SASS rules and continue to be vigilant,but realize that the current rules are the result of 20 years of experince.

Bellicose Bill

George Hill · July 7, 2000, 04:18 PM

No - I would not outlaw these rigs... but that 30 degree rule is less than inforced at the match I was at. Some of them rigs were nearly horizontal as I said before.

Just some thoughts, thats all this was.

Getting interested in this game has not declined at all.

In fact, I have had some interest conversations regarding this sport. Seems to be good to go with even the most rabid anti gunners out there!

wakal · July 7, 2000, 09:38 PM

Yep, just something about guns the Duke used in a billion westerns that placates all but the most rabid anti.

I use a SASS-legal crossdraw rig for my second gun, a 3 1/2 Cimmeron New Thunderer, and a strong side for my 5 1/2 Vaquero. Since I run the local matches, safety rules are enforced with a vengence. No problems yet, although there are some kinda odd folks out there.

One guy showed up with a brace of Blackhawks in nice leather...and a H&R .32 top-break in a modern clip-on holster 'clipped' to the inside of his vest's armhole. Looked a bit silly until the whole thing, gun and holster, fell on the ground when he was bending over to pick up some brass. My head RO jumped him hard.

Anyway, next week my crossdraw days should be over...no more Shuffle for me. Got a pair of Colt Cowboys coming, moving from Duelist to Gunfighter. Geez, like I don't win NOW...

Alex

Joey · July 10, 2000, 03:54 PM

I've got a crossdraw rig on order from http://www.oldwestreproductions.com/index.html Rick B makes some of the best if not the best old west reproduction leather gear bar none. He cants his crossdraw rigs at 20 degrees. Since we've gotten involved in CAS I've really researched leather goods and his is the best quality at a extremly good price. Check out his web site and give him a call, even if you don't order anything you'll be glad you called him.

Check out the Cheyenne Regulator link in my sig line. They just finished Hell on Wheels shoot for this year last weekend and while we were on vacation we purposely made it home in time to check it out a tad sunday. They had tons of vendors and just about any kind of CAS gear you can think about, I picked up a new pair of Buffalo Runner stovepipe boots dirt cheap. Next year I'm planning on shooting in H.O.W.

As close as you are why not try making it out some weekend?? The regulators shoot the first sat of the month.

------------------
SAS RKBA freedom Scottsbluff Cowboy Shooters Cheyenne Regulators

[This message has been edited by Joey (edited July 10, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Joey (edited July 10, 2000).]

Henry Bowman · July 10, 2000, 10:22 PM

Hello again George, I'll apologize up front for the stretch in topic on my question. What's your take on horizonal shoulder rigs safety wise in CCW? Thanks, henry

July 6, 2000, 07:34 PM	#1
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	Now - personally, I love the Cross Draw. But... at shootin matches - I would rather not see them on the line. Why? Bacause most of the rigs I have seen (admitedly being new to this scene - I have not seen all that many. But I have seen enough to form an iron clad opinion!) are canted to the point that the muzzel of the loaded gun is pointing back at the folks watching. I understand the little step to turn the muzzle while drawing... yet this not enough I dont think. Before this step is made - that muzzel has already swept everyone. And quite often - the shooters hand is already in the gun before that pivoting step is made. I dont think this is ideal. I have seen a couple rigs that are cross draw, yet the gun is still pointed more down than back... this is better. One rig I saw, the gun was actually vertical - much much better! Thats the way to do it! The gun at no point swept anything other than the steel plates... and that shuffle pivot was not needed either. * Disclaimer * These opinions are personal and formed of the impressions of a CAS Novice.

July 6, 2000, 08:50 PM	#2
Ned Roundtree Senior Member Join Date: December 8, 1999 Location: Lexington, KY,USA Posts: 738	Good observations. Cross draws are probably the number one safety infraction we have. But mostly due to folks getting lazy and not doing the "SASS Shuffle" when drawing. Cross draw holsters are not to be more than 30 degrees from vertical. If someone at your club has violated this, speak to the head range officer. Otherwise, don't stand behind a man that doesn't dance when he pulls the cross draw.

July 7, 2000, 07:41 AM	#3
Kent White Member Join Date: January 10, 1999 Location: Hawkinsville, GA USA Posts: 66	In the first CAS match I ever shot, I used a crossdraw. In order to "do it right" I used as straight draw holster slid around to the off side. Drew straight up, finger off the trigger, thumb off the hammer. Did not cock the gun until I had it pointed down range. Shot the match one handed, and beat Edzilla by something like .010 second. Of course, that's the only time I've ever beat Edzilla! I don't think that an authentic crossdraw holster is dangerous, as most of them that I've seen don't have much rake, if any at all.

July 7, 2000, 10:28 AM	#4
Bill Mitchell Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 15, 1998 Location: Roswell,GA Posts: 433	Howdy George, First off,I use a crossdraw-a SASS legal crossdraw. By that,I mean that it doesn't depart from the vertical by more than 30 degrees. This rule is in place to prevent the holstered gun from sweeping those behind. That,plus the "crossdraw dance",make crossdraws as safe as straight draws. If someone doesn't do the dance,they get DQ'd-it's that simple. At your next shoot,watch some straight draw shooters pull their guns. I think you'll see that a lot of them "drag" the gun from the holster,meaning that the muzzle is pointing backwards as the gun is being drawn. Now,this is a legal draw,and I've never seen anyone warned for doing this. So,using that example,a crossdraw done correctly from a legal rig can be safer than a legal draw from a straight hang holster,as the muzzle is pointed downrange as the gun is drawn and reholstered. Crossdraws have been around since this game started. There are those who would outlaw them in a heartbeat if given the chance. But,for now,crossdraws are allowed-they just have some caveats that go along with them. If you're shooting in a SASS affiliated club,then SASS rules should apply,including the 30 degree rake of a crossdraw. If you see a rig that you think isn't legal,bring it up to the RO. If he won't do anything about it,then find another place to shoot. SASS is shoting sport where a lot of things could go wrong,but rarely do. We must each be vigilant and call safety infractions when they occur. If we don't,then we don't feel comfortable,and the person breaking a rule or being unsafe isn't made aware of the problem-neither of these things is acceptable. Learn the SASS rules and continue to be vigilant,but realize that the current rules are the result of 20 years of experince. Bellicose Bill

July 7, 2000, 04:18 PM	#5
George Hill Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: North Carolina Posts: 11,546	No - I would not outlaw these rigs... but that 30 degree rule is less than inforced at the match I was at. Some of them rigs were nearly horizontal as I said before. Just some thoughts, thats all this was. Getting interested in this game has not declined at all. In fact, I have had some interest conversations regarding this sport. Seems to be good to go with even the most rabid anti gunners out there!

July 7, 2000, 09:38 PM	#6
wakal Senior Member Join Date: March 24, 2000 Location: San Angelo, Texas Posts: 317	Yep, just something about guns the Duke used in a billion westerns that placates all but the most rabid anti. I use a SASS-legal crossdraw rig for my second gun, a 3 1/2 Cimmeron New Thunderer, and a strong side for my 5 1/2 Vaquero. Since I run the local matches, safety rules are enforced with a vengence. No problems yet, although there are some kinda odd folks out there. One guy showed up with a brace of Blackhawks in nice leather...and a H&R .32 top-break in a modern clip-on holster 'clipped' to the inside of his vest's armhole. Looked a bit silly until the whole thing, gun and holster, fell on the ground when he was bending over to pick up some brass. My head RO jumped him hard. Anyway, next week my crossdraw days should be over...no more Shuffle for me. Got a pair of Colt Cowboys coming, moving from Duelist to Gunfighter. Geez, like I don't win NOW... Alex

July 10, 2000, 03:54 PM	#7
Joey Senior Member Join Date: June 28, 1999 Posts: 437	I've got a crossdraw rig on order from http://www.oldwestreproductions.com/index.html Rick B makes some of the best if not the best old west reproduction leather gear bar none. He cants his crossdraw rigs at 20 degrees. Since we've gotten involved in CAS I've really researched leather goods and his is the best quality at a extremly good price. Check out his web site and give him a call, even if you don't order anything you'll be glad you called him. Check out the Cheyenne Regulator link in my sig line. They just finished Hell on Wheels shoot for this year last weekend and while we were on vacation we purposely made it home in time to check it out a tad sunday. They had tons of vendors and just about any kind of CAS gear you can think about, I picked up a new pair of Buffalo Runner stovepipe boots dirt cheap. Next year I'm planning on shooting in H.O.W. As close as you are why not try making it out some weekend?? The regulators shoot the first sat of the month. ------------------ SAS RKBA freedom Scottsbluff Cowboy Shooters Cheyenne Regulators [This message has been edited by Joey (edited July 10, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Joey (edited July 10, 2000).]

July 10, 2000, 10:22 PM	#8
Henry Bowman Junior member Join Date: April 27, 2000 Location: AK Posts: 139	Hello again George, I'll apologize up front for the stretch in topic on my question. What's your take on horizonal shoulder rigs safety wise in CCW? Thanks, henry