newbie question

[carl418]

I'm new to reloading, and am still accumulating the equipment, but I'm almost there. I bought the Lee 3-die carbide sets for .357 mag and .44 mag. I'm only going to reload for revolver use. My question is this: do I need the Lee factory crimp die? And, if I do, why do I need it? Thanks in advance for putting up with my newbie questions!

[rwilson452]

Do you need the FCD? No, you don't need it. But you want it. It will make life a lot easier for you especially when your first starting out. Without it your seating and crimping in one step which makes setting up the seating die twice as difficult. with the FCD you do it in two steps with different dies. Twice maybe three times as simple. When using lead bullets with some bullets you wind up shaving lead when you do it in one step. I have the FCD for all pistol calibers I load. I also have one for 30-06 for my M1 Garand. Basicly your applying the K.I.S.S. principle.

[Robereno]

I just started reloading a few weeks ago with small handgun loads in mind. I went with the Lee 3 set carbide die set as well. Was able to get the one step seating & crimping down after some trial & error but decided to order the Factory crimp die anyway. It just requires less "fiddling" and seems to simplify the process.

It was only $11 at midway & seemed like a good idea.

[ConRich]

+1 on what swilson452 posted, I could never get a consistant crimp using the seating/crimping die. I tried the FCD and have never looked back. HTH

Rich

[BigJakeJ1s]

OK, I'll be the contrarian. I started loading 45 colt, and went ahead and bought a Lee FCD. I tried it at first, and was not that happy with the crimp. It was not a nice smooth roll into the canelure like I wanted. So I spent about 10 minutes readjusting my Hornady seating die to crimp while I seated. It works perfectly every time with a smoothly rolled crimp, and I've never looked back. Plus I save a step every time I reload. I bought a Lee case trimmer/gauge, and make sure I run all my brass through it once, to get a consistent length. I don't have to re-trim very often (every 5 reloads or so).

Andy

[caz223]

Well, yes and no.
If you go single stage, don't use the factory crimp die, It's extra work.
If you want to load your ammo with powders like H110, 4227, 296, lil gun, or any magnum powder, STAY AWAY FROM THE FACTORY CRIMP DIE. Those slow burning powders need a solid roll crimp. The factory crimp taper crimps.
I can't really think of a reason to use a factory crimp die in a revolver caliber, unless you cast your own bullets using soft lead, don't size them, and they are a bit oversize. The FC die will make sure they fit in the cylinder and iron out the creases in the brass from uneven seating of oversize bullets. Other than that, I'd avoid them like the plague. They cover up things that you really need to know.

Getting the proper crimp from dies is difficult if you seat and crimp in the same operation.
It's almost impossible if you use soft bullets that distort easlily, or don't have the correct seater plug or stem for your bullet profile.
Seating and crimping in the same operation is to be avoided, the reason the factory crimp die has a following is that when most people try it, it's really the first time they have seated and crimped in two operations instead of one. The crimp is more uniform. The seating depth is more consistant. Well, of course it is, dummy, you're doing it in two steps.
If you need more consistant seating depth, and more consistant crimp buy a real roll crimp die and use it by itself, and you'll have a nice roll crimp and a consistant seating depth.
And leave the band-aids in the medicine cabinet.

I suppose if the brass you're using is of varying headstamps and ages, then taper crimping would be more consistant than trying to roll crimp garbage brass.
It would be of varying lengths and you'd get varying crimps, not the dies fault, it's the fault of your brass.
If you keep the brass sorted by headstamp, and use it until it starts to show it's age, you will get better accuracy anyway.
I guess if you load soft bullets in .38 spl with a light charge of fast powder using mixed brass of unknown origin, the factory crimp die would be easier than trying to adjust your dies to seat and crimp in one operation, or roll crimping, which really isn't necessary with faster burning powders.

Sorry for the rant, but there's a lot of bad info out there about this die, and it's use is rampant. It's not always the correct die for every use.

*shrug* again, it depends. Please don't take this out of context. He asked about using factory crimp dies in revolver calibers. I answered his question.
Roll crimping is not for autoloaders.

[snuffy]

Caz, thanks for the wake up call! I'd been told and had been telling others that the lee factory crimp die made for revolver ammo was a ROL CRIMPER! It is in fact a taper crimp die! I didn't have one until a couple months ago, when I bought one for my dillon 650 set-up for 44 mag. What you said made me go look at my 44 FCD. I also went on lee's website, they do NOT say anywhere that the revolver dies are roll crimpers.

I loaded a bunch of 240 xtp's using a heavy charge of blu-dot for fun shooting. I took another close look at the rounds I had left, definetely a taper crimp on them. Looks like a good heavy crimp, I doubt any of them are going to move!

I'm guilty of criticizing people when they repeat the old "I've heard" or "I read somewhere" without thinking or checking for themselves. Now I get caught doing the same thing!

[Buckythebrewer]

The Lee factory crimp die works very well in the ammo we have loaded for my friends desert eagle.I use it from time to time with my ar15.My only gripe is it can(sometimes) lead to split cases in my experience.No big deal but I like my brass to last as long as possible..I do like the die very much and it is a safety aid if your brass isn't 100% trimmed correctly.I will always use it for ammo That I wan't to near factory specs to fire in any gun.My only recommendation is read alot of reloading books and trim your brass and watch for double charges&don't do HOT! loADS .Oh,,Also I wanted to say you made a smart choice to use lee gear especially to start out without having to break the bank..As time goes on you will find specialty equipment you might need or wan't but Lee will make good ammo cheap.I shoot 600+ yards on cheap Lee dies ,challenger press and equipmentYou will get your best ammo and accuracy by paying attention to what you are loading and not expensive gear..After comes specialty equipment that may or may not make a difference.Always keep your mind on safety 1st.

[T-Bear]

I;ve shot close to 900 rds of Full Power 454 casull loads. When I bought my FCD, it stated on the box Roll Crimp Die. And puts a nice one as well. You can clearly see the difference in a heavy taper crimp as opposed to a heavy roll crimp.
Now for my .38 special I have 2Lee dies 1 for Roll crimping (FCD) and the other is a Lee taper crimp die.

Now for your question if you need it. I started buying them when I started to get into Progressive produced ammo. I seperated the seating and the crimping to get better results for progressive produced ammo.
As for the 454, I still load that on a single stage as well as my HP for better quality.

Good luck and it's a cheap investment.

[BigJakeJ1s]

My Lee FCD for 45 colt puts on a roll crimp, not a taper crimp. I just did not like the looks or smoothness of the crimp.

Andy

[snuffy]

Straight from Lee's website FAQ for the FCD,(as far as pistol FCD's go).

Carbide Factory Crimp explanation

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.

To me, the sliding crimper in my 44 FCD LOOKS LIKE A TAPER CRIMPER! The result on the finished shell looks like a TAPER CRIMP was applied!

[Jammer Six]

WELCOME, NEWBIES!



I just started reloading a couple months ago, and have been the new kid on the block- until you showed up!



So, no longer being the new-EST kid on the block, I welcome you, tell you that everyone here will help you beyond any reasonable expectation, and charge you with the responsibility of watching for and welcoming the next set of newbies.

[rwilson452]

If you go to the lee web site you will find that lee makes both a taper and a roll crimp die for most pistol rounds that use a roll crimp. Part numbers are critical here.

[snuffy]

"If you go to the lee web site you will find that lee makes both a taper and a roll crimp die for most pistol rounds that use a roll crimp. Part numbers are critical here."

Yeah, except we are talking exclusively about the lee Factory Crimp Die for straight walled REVOLVER ROUNDS.

FROM THE LEE WEBSITE;

"Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die

A carbide sizer sizes the cartridge while it is being crimped so every round will positvely chamber freely with factory like dependability. The adjustig screw quickly and easily sets the desired amount of crimp. It is impossible to buckle the case as with a conventional bullet seating die. Trim length is not critical so this extra operation takes less time than it would if cases were trimmed and chamfered. Revolver dies roll crimp with no limit as to the amount. A perfect taper crimp is applied to auto-loader rounds. The crimper cannot be misadjusted to make a case mouth too small to properly head-space. A firm crimp is essential for dependable and accurate ammunition. It eliminates the problems of poor ignition of slow burning magnum powders. "

Notice the area in the bold type. Roll crimpers are well known to cause case buckeling if adjusted too deep. A roll crimper will turn the mouth of a case 90 degrees into the bullet/cannelure. The inside diameter of the roll crimper is .001 bigger than bullet diameter, it just allows the bullet to pass through then turns the case into the crimp grove. The inside diameter of my FCD crimp sleeve is .433, ample room to let the case pass through will continuing to crimp, as in the explanation On lee's website.

[Charlie98]

I use a Taper Crimp die on all my calibers except .348 WCF where I use a Lee Factory Crimp Die. I load for .380, .38/357, .41 and .45 handguns and .223 and 30-06 rifles as well as the aforementioned .348WCF.

Either one will beat the crap out of the supplied roll crimp.

[amamnn]

You might want to look into this:
http://www.redding-reloading.com/pag...crimpdies.html

I was having trouble finding a crimp die for my .32 H&R mag.. this was all I could find.......great control of the crimp with this die!...!!.!.!!!....since I began using this crimper I wish I had known about it before I bought other crimpers for my other revolver loads

[caz223]

Well, it looks like I have some crow to eat.
I apologize for not confirming what I had heard.
I hate being wrong, the only thing I hate worse is getting bad info, so I REALLY hate being the source for bad info.
I'm gonna head out with my tail between my legs, and not pass any more retoric.

[snuffy]

Amamnn, that's a good looking crimp die! I'm gonna have to look into that.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpag...eitemid=123272

One thing that's for sure with that die is; case length would be critical. I never trim most handgun brass, but when using that die you would have to. 30 years ago I was heavily into handgun silhouette shooting. My production gun at that time was/is my 44 SBH. I trimmed ALL the .44 cases so I could get the accuracy desired. I still have the gun AND the lee trimmer, so I may order the redding profile crimp die.

Caz, I learned something too. I too hate being wrong, strive to be right, no BS. Now what we have to do is get Lee themselves straightened out, it appears THEY don't know what they're making!?

A long look at the loaded rounds I have that were crimped with the FCD, shows that some of them crimped just over the shoulder of the cannelure of the 240 XTP. others were properly centered, and a few were all the way to the top of the cannelure. Hardly what I would want to see. The problem was not with the seating die, but with case length.

What lee says is correct, case length does not matter, as far as bulgeing the case from variations of case length. The neck will go under the inside of the crimp chamber with enough room for the brass and bullet, even if no crimp grove was present.

[carl418]

Guys, I appreciate all your answers, but it appears that some people like the Lee FCD and some dont. I'm not even sure if I need a roll crimp, but I thought I did... and now, I'm not sure if the Lee FCD is a roll crimper, or not. I just re-read the entire thread again, and all I can say for sure is that my question sure did get a lot of answers, lol..... Please keep 'em coming... I'm learning a lot on this forum.

[BigJakeJ1s]

What lee says is correct, case length does not matter, as far as bulgeing the case from variations of case length. The neck will go under the inside of the crimp chamber with enough room for the brass and bullet, even if no crimp grove was present.

This is probably why I did not like the looks of the crimp I got from the FCD. It looked like the case mouth slipped under the crimp ring after only a little bit of roll. Then it looked like the inside of that ring was not polished very well, because it left a rough surface on the brass above the roll part of the crimp. Now that you mention it, I can see why they designed it that way, so that folks could use it with bullets without a canelure. Since I'm only using bullets with a canelure, I don't need that capability.

That may also explain why I got such a nice smooth crimp with the Hornady seater die. The sliding alignment sleeve is designed to have a close fit to the case mouth and to the bullet to ensure the bullet is correctly aligned with it. The profile of the inside of the sleeve matches the case mouth towards the bottom, and the bullet diameter at the top. The transition between the two diameters is the rolling edge that does the crimping. The crimping starts when the sliding alignment sleeve stops against a ridge in the die body.

Andy

[snuffy]

Andy, that's exactly what I'm seeing! And I don't like it! This thread made me take a hard look at the lee FCD I had just bought. I'm gonna order one of the redding profile crimpers, then trim all my brass. Not a big deal, I don't shoot the .44 that much anymore.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of Lee! I also have the FCD in 40 S&W, 9mm, 45 auto, and two rifle FCD's. Most of my dies are lee as well. I just think there's a better answer for my .44.

[carl418]

Ok, you guys have gotten a little bit more technical than I understand.... let me see if I've got this. IF I were to trim each case, THEN the Lee FCD would work correctly? Is that right? Thanks for all the info... I just wish I understood it all! lol...

[snuffy]

Carl, the only time you would HAVE to trim all the cases is if you're using the redding profile die. The lee FCD DOES allow you to get away with NOT trimming every case, because the way it's built it allows the case and bullet to pass UNDER or inside the crimper. I wish I had a real close-up camera, I could show everybody how a case that's too long looks after being crimped by the lee FCD.

IF you had a standard roll crimper/seater die, AND your cases were all trimmed to the same length, you could seat and crimp in the same operation. Providing you had jacketed bullets WITH a cannelure, or cast bullets with a crimp grove. It takes a little fiddeling but it CAN be done!

Straight walled handgun/revolver cases don't stretch much. Case grip on the chamber walls is better, and the pressures are lower. Many will tell you that they don't bother trimming ANY handgun brass. The magnum revolver brass is the exception, especially the newer ones like the 454 casull, 460, 475, 480, and 500 magnums. They run at much higher chamber pressure, they're going to grow in length.

[alexander hamilton]

great stuff guys. i am going to go look at my fcd crimps right now!