Is anatomy taught in handgun SD classes?

[Jeff22]

Dr. Jim Williams who is an associate instructor for LFI teaches a class called "Tactical Anatomy" which is basically elementry anatomy for gunfighters. He posts on tacticalforums.com once in a great while. (DrJSW)
www.firearmstrng.com.

I believe John Farnam of Defense Training International has co-instructed courses with a physician and they cover many of the same issues, but I don't know that doctor's name.

[Danindetroit]

Very neat, the aorta, looks pretty wide. I think I might have a long torso, so the hips look high to me, I think a glancing blow to the aorta, with "T" series loads, and the heart will get over 100 beats a minute, and drain a person, if the sudden loss of blood pressure, doesn't at least slow them down. I think they sell the T-shirts, for $15

Again thanks everybody.



This one shows things pretty well, I think, that is a little better rep, of the anatomy, of most people.

Tactical Anatomy Systems is a lethal force targeting method developed by an Emergency Physician with strong ties to the law enforcement community. Standard training targets used by most police forces for training and routine firearms qualification have little or no correlation to the vital structures of human anatomy. As a result, police officers often have only a vague idea of where to aim when faced with an armed, aggressive felon.

Training police to shoot for “center of mass” translates, in most officers’ minds, to “shoot somewhere in the middle”. This middle-muddle sets up the officer for failure—failure to hit vital structures, failure to neutralize the armed attacker, and by extension, failure to protect himself and the community from a dangerous criminal.

I am sure it looks too physical for me, but maybe my wife can go, with a couple of people from work.

[Ninjato]

Danindetroit Senior Member Join Date: 10-01-2004 Location: Detroit Posts: 736 Please tell me where and what the dural mater is? I am sure one of my wife's grandfathers, completed only the 2nd grade, but he was a good hunter, leased about 700 acres in the thumb to farmers, and worked into his 70's. He was a hunter, and shooter, I am pretty sure he knew about deer anatomy first hand, and most birds. I do not even think one of my grandfathers attended school or spoke english, never stopped him from hunting, or owning businesses. 2 of his 3 sons served in the armed forces, and his only daughter also. He owned land on Harsen's island, and hunted it. Knowledge is helpful in just about everything.

My statement was not an insult. You seem to take it that way and took what I said out of context. What grade your grandfather only completed has nothing to do w/ the context of what I said. The fact that he owned 2 businesses has nothing to do w/ this thread and basic human anatomy.

When I say basic, I meant BASIC. Brain, lungs, heart, stomach, liver. As long as the BG goes down after being shot in the head, chest, abdomen, torso which house the brain, heart, stomach, and liver respectively. Beyond that I keep shooting until the BG stops. The time it takes to aim to such a precise area on a moving target rushing at you at the rate of 10ft+/sec, aiming down is not happenning. If you have the time to aim, then the BG is way too far for you to legally shoot in most circumstances.

I never said knowledge is not helpful and my point is, if a person has no idea where the brain is, the heart is, the stomach is, then the person needs more help than an anatomy class offered at a shooting range.

BTW, the dural matter is the brain or the gray matter associated w/ the brain.

[Danindetroit]

The Dural Mater, is one coverring of the cns just like shorts said, it is the outer layer, and covers the brain, and spinal cord. There are 2 other layers. They are also called Meninges, so spinal meningitis, is an inflamation of these linings, usually cause by a bacterial, or viral infection.

[QUOTE]If a person has no idea of basic human anatomy, that person needs more help than a gun can supply. isn't basic anatomy taught in grade school?
QUOTE]

Yes law enforcement, and most people probably could use a refresher couse, on the 3-d aspect of shooting. How can people who have never gone to school receive this knowledge? What kind of help do they need? Your post seems to imply they are mentally defective, and do not deserve this knowledge. They should be able to get the training from a competent person, like this Dr. read up on his website, it is interesting, most people do not think this way, these shirts, could have helped a person, without a formal education, defend themselves. Even if they read poorly or not at all.

Other people spoke of this 3-d concept, but I needed to see it to understande some things. I have posted that I learn visually, diagrams, charts, pics.

[Ninjato]

Yes law enforcement, and most people probably could use a refresher couse, on the 3-d aspect of shooting. How can people who have never gone to school receive this knowledge? What kind of help do they need? Your post seems to imply they are mentally defective, and do not deserve this knowledge. They should be able to get the training from a competent person, like this Dr. read up on his website, it is interesting, most people do not think this way, these shirts, could have helped a person, without a formal education, defend themselves. Even if they read poorly or not at all. Other people spoke of this 3-d concept, but I needed to see it to understande some things. I have posted that I learn visually, diagrams, charts, pics.

Ok, it is obvious you simply refuse to understand my point. I said BASIC. If a person does not know where the brain is regardless of schooling, then the person IS mentally deficient. If a person is unaware that the lungs are in the chest cavity, regardless of schooling, then the person IS mentally deficient. There are just some things where common sense is all that is needed. Now if I was going into the medical field, then I can see the benefit of an anatomy class.

Like I said, it is a great money making scheme. I'd rather spend my $$$ on ammo and practice shooting.

You have made no point at all in asking me what the dural matter is other than to show prove I am wrong. I doubt the avrage person would know this but I am SURE if you ask anybody where their brain is they can show you.

Trying to tell a person who is not a gun enthusiast, who carries, and practices about once a month, to shoot at a moving target and try to aim at a certain "organ" is absurd imo. I am a martial arts instructor and back in the early '80s many martial schools started to teach self defense classes. Very quickly, it was realized that the average person just cannot apply the higher level techniques an accomplished practitioner can. It was then condensed into what we have today for women's self defense. The techniques are simple direct and work, unlike the overly intricate stuff from years past. My point.....Keep it simple...point, aim, shoot, and GET THE F OUTTA THERE!!!!!

[444]

Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target.
Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.

[Ninjato]

Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target. Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.

This I can understand. Thanks for the tip. I will keep an eye out for this error when the situation arises at the range although maybe it is me being a career martial artist, I never really thought of a person as a 2 dimensional object. Being a hand to hand thing, you get the 3-D effect in your face. It is a good tip to watch for nevertheless.

I still think the anatomy class is clever scam. Business is business and there is a sucker born every minute. Just my opinion.

[XavierBreath]

I want to state again, that I know anatomy pretty well. I can tell you where the LAD, the RCA and the circumflex are. I can tell you where the subclavians are, as well as the brachiocephalics. I can tell you what the thalamus is, the hypothalamus, and what the difference is. I am a scrub nurse. I have assisted in surgery. I have dissected. I know where things are in the human body, and the variations among individual people. I have seen surgeons go searching. I have spotted what they were looking for. I feel confident in my grasp of anatomy.

The two dimensional Tshirt guy is a joke, and I cannot believe a physician/instructor would be this ignorant. Actually, he's not. Teaching this type of anatomy for self defense with a gun is a gimmick. That is all it is, a gimmick. He's getting students and making money! He's smart! When T shirt guy turns sideways, his heart is NOT on the surface of his chest as depicted by the drawing on his shirt. His actual heart is obscured by his arm in a side view if the arm is down. His actual heart is 4-6 inches from that drawing on his shirt. Tshirt man is no different than that paper target, but now he has an aura of reality because he is presented as fact by a physician. What is next? Shooting specific areas of the heart with a .22LR to induce arrythmias? Yelling at the BG "Hey, face forward, so I can align my anatomical landmarks please!"?

This type of precision anatomy shooting is based on the assumption that a bullet will continue to travel in a straight line after it enters a human body. (At least I have to assume that this "instructor" does not really believe the heart is on the surface of the chest as his Tshirt depicts). Once a bullet enters a human body, all bets are off as to where it will go and where it will stop. You might be aiming for the bicuspid valve, and be right on target, and then that darned bullet decided to take a detour once inside the chest, and it ended up in the pyloric valve instead. Doggone it, now you have to shoot again, and the damned BG will just not hold still for you. This kind of anatomical marksmanship is founded on the idea that the bullet will continue to travel in a straight line after penetration. They don't. All it takes is one evening digging out bullets to realize that the straight line through the body idea is a myth.

This type of training could convince a gun ignorant jury that you had the training to shoot selectively and prevent the BG from dying. That is really dangerous! I can almost promise you in a lethal encounter you will be running, twisting, falling, tripping, and trying your damnedest to get as many rounds into your target's COM as you can, whether you have had this type of training or not. Since you attended Dr. Shootgud's classes though, the jury will look at all that training you got........Oh no, the BG could have been easily imobilized with a hit to the acetabulum. Now you are a murderer.

In a lethal encounter, the shooter trying to hit these dynamic anatomical targets will likely die. While he is taking the time to choose whether he would like to hit the SA node, the AV node, or some purkinje fibers, his opponent will be blasting his COM into oblivion.. He would be better trained if he had invested his time into quickly getting his gun out of the concealed holster without shooting himself, aligning his sights COM without shooting the ground in front of him, and putting two quick hits into an area 3 inches in diameter that is 15 feet away from him. It is hard enough to do that.

BTW it goes: skin, galea aponeurotica, skull, dura mater, arachnoid, and then pia mater. Then you get into grey or white MATTER.

edited to add: I'm sorry, I reread my post, and it sounded rather contrary to how I try to talk to people. I guess what I am trying to say is I know human anatomy very well, from years of hands on experience. I recognize that a 150 pound man's thoracic cavity will be different than a 350 pounders. I have been shooting most of my life, and have trained hard and well to defend myself. I have been in situations that had a high pucker factor. When in the military, I experienced incoming fire. I have to say, in all honesty, if I have another instance when I must defend my life, I will be putting my firearms training to use, not my surgical training. I do not believe that this type of training is of use to anyone with the exception of a sniper. In a self defense situation, I feel it is far more important to gain the initiative, get your gun safely into the fight, and avoid taking hits yourself while putting as many into the BG as you must to survive. Being able to hit moving targets while moving yourself is far more important than knowing anatomy. Everyone has a gimmick to get people into their classes. That is what I think this is. No offense meant to those who may find it interesting.

[Blackhawk6]

My knowledge of anatomy is limited to what I learned in 9th grade biology. Allow me to summarize: the upper chest houses some pretty important stuff, as does the head. The spine runs down the center of the back.

When I attended my first block of instruction on fighting with a firearm I was advised that my target will most likely be facing me or be quartered away from me (ruling out shots to the spine), the head is small and moves around a lot (making it hard to hit) and I was advised to aim for the upper chest (where the important stuff resides). This sync'd with what my biology teacher taught me. (Common sense told me that if none of the "choice" portions of his anatomy were available, I should shoot what was until something better became available.)

I was further advised that a single hit from my weapon, particularly if it was a handgun, may not instantly incapacitate my opponent. In that event, I should continue to shoot into the upper chest and, if after multiple shots to the upper chest (the exact number to be determined by me), my opponent was still a threat I may want to consider putting rounds into a different portion of his anatomy. The two suggested were the head, understanding that it is small and moves around a lot, or the pelvis, which could make the bad guy fall down but not necessarily take him out of the fight. (This also sync'd with 9th grade biology). This seemed like sound advice and it is what I have been using for 10+ years. So far, no issues.

I no longer remember where the common perineal nerve is located or what vitreous humor is but I consider myself to have adequate anatomical knowledge to defend myself. I have to wonder what else anyone would need to know.

[Ninjato]

Blackhawk6 and XavierBreath......EXACTLY what I was trying to say before I was questioned to where the dural matter is .

[CarlosDJackal]

FWIW, most of the handgun courses, as well as the shotgun and carbine courses, I have attended emphasized the Upper Center of Mass (UCOM) as the primary area you should place your rounds in.

[LAK]

When speaking of knowledge of anatomy in the context of self defense we are not speaking of that which is necessary to be a Navy corpsman or a surgeon, but what is potentially beneficial in varied circumstances, against varied antagonists, etc.

As well as bullet type and construction (pistol and rifle) this can be injected into the practical topic of the specific effects, likely or not, of the specific target areas. Like what can and cannot be expected of a CM hit that rips the aorta as opposed to a solid CNS hit. Or should a headshot be deemed necessary, where to aim from all angles.

These are the reasons a knowledge of anatomy is potentially beneficial, not as merely mapping the skeletal, cardiovascular system etc - but their merits and effects as targets with various firearms and bullets.

[Ninjato]

When speaking of knowledge of anatomy in the context of self defense we are not speaking of that which is necessary to be a Navy corpsman or a surgeon, but what is potentially beneficial in varied circumstances, against varied antagonists, etc. As well as bullet type and construction (pistol and rifle) this can be injected into the practical topic of the specific effects, likely or not, of the specific target areas. Like what can and cannot be expected of a CM hit that rips the aorta as opposed to a solid CNS hit. Or should a headshot be deemed necessary, where to aim from all angles. These are the reasons a knowledge of anatomy is potentially beneficial, not as merely mapping the skeletal, cardiovascular system etc - but their merits and effects as targets with various firearms and bullets.

You think you actually NEED a class for this? You don't think common sense is enough. I understand that there are many out there that common sense is not something that comes easy but that is truly disappointing to think people are that incapable of thinking logically.

[Danindetroit]

So you think that a standard target, is good enough for law enforcement?

[Ninjato]

So you think that a standard target, is good enough for law enforcement?

I am thru trying to explain my point to you Dan. You definitely are not trying to understand and personally I don't think you want to. If you think it is valid then all the power to you. Waste your $$$$. Take the course. Buy the stupid T-Shirt so you can visualize vital organs as you practice drawing and dry firing in the mirror

[Danindetroit]

I can't take the course, I have a bad back. I believe that the class does have merit. Most people who call things common sense usually have more knowledge than another person. Shooting a gun, is not common sense, it is practice, and training. I do not have a holster for my non-exsistant handgun, so I guess I'll stick to asking questions to expand my knowledge. I appreciate the responses of people that helped. I explained things to people that asked, and they understood. Other people explained things better than I could, and answered my questions very well. I have some good advice.

[Ninjato]

Dan I am not mad at you. I have stated that it is my personal opinion that the course is a scam. I also said that basic anatomy is general knowledge. Again I reiterate BASIC, not some dura matter like you asked so you could make me look like I didn't know what I was talking about. Furthermore you went on to talk about your grandfather who did not finish the 2nd grade, and knew deer anatomy to hunt. Well I'm not sure but I highly doubt he went to a class with a deer wearing a anatomical t-shirt so he can visualize in 3-D where the organs he needed to hit were. He had a lot of common sense.

Now you ask if practicing on standard targets for law enforcement is enough. Well I think you need to see it for what it is. I wuld rather have the police shoot accurately and quickly than to worry about visualizing in 3-D and try to hit a specific organ on a moving target. It is better to have LE practice on a moving standard target to get used to shooting at moving targets IMO.

If a law enforcement officer does not have enough comon sense to figure out where he needs to shoot, he is in the WRONG profession.

BTW , my range has silhouettes that are stooping, squatting, standing, turned to the side. I believe that this is enough. You may not.

[Danindetroit]

If a law enforcement officer does not have enough comon sense to figure out where he needs to shoot, he is in the WRONG profession.

There are many women law enforcement officers, and people who were men stated that they had a hard time visualizing certain shots. These people seemed to have common sense, other people said they had the knowledge already from other sources. Have you been to an academy, and shot to qualify? Shooting at a person on an angle and relizing that you have to not shoot where you think, could be hard to learn.

Louis Awerbuck is the one that actually drove this point home to me about three dimensional targets. During the class, he discussed it and I listened and nodded my head. Then when we started going through the simulators, I did exactly what he said I would. I was so used to shooting flat paper targets that instead of holding COM, I was trying to shoot where the boxes would be on a paper target. Louis has out a couple books. I am not sure about video tapes.

You thought this was good advice, what is wrong with a Dr. teaching it? You insinuate that from training you might not make the mistake, how much training is that? Training is not common sense.

ninjanto:You think you actually NEED a class for this? You don't think common sense is enough. I understand that there are many out there that common sense is not something that comes easy but that is truly disappointing to think people are that incapable of thinking logically.

In the heat of the moment, it is unlikely that many will be able to make these kinds of decisions or be capable of such coherent thought while engaging a dynamic, moving target that is fighting back.

I suspect that trying to place shots in specific areas of the upper chest while in danger of being killed/shot/stomped on is asking pretty much

Stress under fire will drop anyones IQ.

It seems most people think a shootout will make thinking logically difficult. The only thing to fall back on is training, knowing where the heart is common sense, but knowing how to shoot when standing on the left side of a person, to hit the heart seems that training, and not thinking logically, and trying to figure out, how to hit it is best. It seems you can waste a whole mag, basically shooting a person in the front of the chest, missing the heart, if you did not practice for it.

It was noted above that those shirts were not even correct. That is because they were drawn by students, not the Dr. he has the students draw grade school anatomy, and these are mainly law enforcement people. The doc corrects, and helps with angles of attack, yes bullets do not go straight, but hopefully with this training you can get more than one shot on COM. The website insinuated that the anatomy was a short part of the course, and the range, and utilizing the knowledge, and backing it up was key. The picture do not do the course justice. The legal ramifications of this training, are of no concern.

I have a reason for asking what I asked, it is personal, but if anyone has a problem with it, I will explain.

I did explain my reason to people, and they were satisfied, they are people who I have disagreed with in the past, and "understood" why I asked. Or at least pretended to. So if novices, or LE people learning grade school anatomy offends you so much, go to the wesite, and e-mail the instructors, one is a police officer, engineer, has 17 years as a medical tech, Judo instructor, and is currently classified Sharpshooter in Stock and Enhanced Service Pistol, as well as Marksman with Stock Service Revolver. Seems like a pretty well rounded individual. The Doc is classified as Expert in Stock Service Revolver and Stock Service Pistol Divisions, and is currently IDPA’s State Coordinator for Wisconsin. Another person is a USMC veteran and full-time Deputy Sheriff, is highly active in Wisconsin’s law enforcement training community and is a Wisconsin Deptartment of Justice certified firearms instructor for his department, plus he is an active competitive shooter in IDPA, David holds numerous titles, including several State and Regional Championships. David is currently classified as Wisconsin's only 4-Division IDPA Master. Ayoob teaches here also. I guess these people have some credentials. They may just be fakes after money, the basic pistol class costs a whopping $95, the advanced class $175. Not exactly cheap, but I haven't priced any others. Some other classes in Ohio seemed very good also. I will definitely get Awerbuck's(SP) book. Thanks for everbody's interest, feel free to tell me about your qualifications also.

[XavierBreath]

feel free to tell me about your qualifications also.

OK,
6 years as a Navy Corpsman
134 days of combat
multiple mass casualties, and gunshot wounds
4 years of school to become a Registered Nurse
12 years of practice as an RN
2 years of advanced study to become a First Assistant to Surgeons
9 years of surgical practice

Being able to get your gun into play from concealment without shooting yourself is more valuable than knowing where intercostal spaces are.

When you are being shot at, being able to shoot moving targets while on the move yourself is much more valuable than knowing where the aorta is.

Even if you cannot get a COM shot, you are fortunate if you get one shot in anywhere and slow the guy down while you get to cover to make that COM shot.

People have to have a gimmick to get students into their classes or they make no money.

This is turning into a flame war. Please don't take it personally. I'm out.

[LAK]

Ninjato,

Common sense enough? If common sense were enough, one would not need to discuss minutae like bullet construction, bullet weight, velocity and the relationship between the three when they impact human targets of different sixes from different angles, with or without obstructions. One could simply go to the store and "buy a box of ammo".

There are indeed many people who do just that; go out and "buy a box (or two) of ammo". But for others there is a direct relationship between the cartridges and loads they choose to load their defensive handguns with and their practical knowledge of human anatomy.

I have seen a fair amount of professional training material in print, photo and film that goes into this topic quite deeply. The agencies and individuals who use such material do not take the subject lightly or they would not waste their time with it.