No time to think ...

Hook686 · January 6, 2012, 01:16 PM

... as it all happens so quickly. When I read online how people are going to do such and such if confronted, usually some sort of action that involves drawing thyeir CCW, I ponder this when watching the video. The assault happened so quick ... the guy was an ex-Marine, ... a LEO .... Yet he had no chance.

How to avoid this type situation ? Is it possible other than by staying home ?

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...165707839.html

BarryLee · January 6, 2012, 01:24 PM

From the video it is hard to say for certain, but it does appear that the Rangers fans did have an opportunity to remove themselves from the situation. In other words they probably should have simply run away. Now, having said that I am not really sure what I would have done, but when outnumber it is often the best defense. It is very easy to allow your anger and pride to overcome common sense.

Glenn E. Meyer · January 6, 2012, 01:33 PM

Not relevant to this forum.

So moved to T and T

BlackFeather · January 6, 2012, 02:05 PM

From what I see, there wasn't much reason for him to go for a weapon. There was only one attacker, he was trained Military/LEO. If anything, from what I saw, he needs to work on his empty hand and interpersonal skills.

Look at it this way, a preemptive draw would have likely cause more people to join and try to disarm him.

Now, for your questions, interpersonal skills. Sports and ego cause a lot of injury, and apparently both men seemed to have too much to back down. The guy who threw the first blow could have just as easily been ignored. In a situation where I'm outnumbered, I'm not getting in a boxing match with the one guy, I'd rather DEFEND myself and not continue the fight. There's a lot more to self defense than punching and offensive attacks...

sigcurious · January 6, 2012, 02:22 PM

This is an example of why I'm glad to be out of New England, the yankees redsox fans get just as crazy.

That being said, I don't think there's much that can be done to avoid a situation like this, other than keeping your mouth shut and not engaging. People sometimes commit random acts of violence, but in a situation, such as this, where sports teams are involved, there are a few additional factors that seem to escalate things IMHO.

1)People are already hyped up from the sporting event.
2) Frequently alcohol has been consumed and
3) There's already an Us vs Them mentality in place.

These things combined with the notion that some people have a tendency to highly internalize the merits/wins/losses of their favorite sports teams. Leads to "your team sucks" being translated as "you suck" and other such irrational behavior. Things which shouldn't be taken personally get taken personally and tempers flare.

Even if you avoided verbal conflict and were attacked in a situation like this, I think pulling a weapon would be a poor choice, as these things tend to happen in crowds of people often wearing just about the exact same thing. You may end up defending yourself against the wrong person.

MLeake · January 6, 2012, 02:46 PM

Sometimes, things happen very quickly. There are no pat answers for what to do in those cases.

It could be argued that training at escapes and deflections until they are ingrained reflex could be a useful thing. Helped me once, when I walked out the door of a Hooter's and avoided a sucker punch I barely saw out the corner of my eye. Idiot thought I was some other dude... I actually saw the other dude, though, and he was about my height and was not too far from where I was standing.

Look on the attacker's face when his punch missed was classic, though... I suspect the look on my face was interesting.

But I think knowing how not to take the full force of a strike, or how to get out of the way of a takedown, is a pretty handy skillset to have, whether one carries or is unarmed.

Lots of options go out the window if one is knocked off balance, or stunned, or floored.

Learning how to create some space could be critical to enabling a draw.

(Note, though, that these guys probably couldn't carry, anyhow; most states don't seem to allow CCW at sporting events.)

Bear in mind that being good at avoidance and deflection is not a guarantee, it just improves teh odds.

The best thing is to avoid the problem in the first place. For me, that means I usually don't intentionally get all that close to crowds of loud drunks. I avoid darkened doorways, give alleyways a wide berth, and try to stop my vehicle so that I have room to maneuver around the car in front of me.

And sometimes, even all that won't help.

Best we can do is work on improving our odds, so that such behavior becomes unconscious action.

BlueTrain · January 6, 2012, 04:24 PM

When I try to think, nothing happens.

MLeake · January 6, 2012, 05:57 PM

Yeah... that's why muscle memory is crucial in many instances.

BlueTrain · January 7, 2012, 07:31 AM

That's true, although I was kidding. The thing is, you never know how or how well you'll react in any given situation or if you'll do the same thing the next time. It almost doesn't matter what it is. There are dozens of real-life situations, not remotely fantasies, that can happen over the course of one's lifetime. I don't mean "home invasions" (the current expression for burglarly) but automobile accidents, falling objects, falling people, accidents in the home, confrontations with panhandlers, wild animals, nosy neighbors, door to door salesmen and so on. So people remain cool, others go to pieces. You just won't know until you've had the experiences.

And my muscles aren't what they used to be, if they ever were.

Evil Monkey · January 7, 2012, 07:38 AM

How about not going to these places.

Mobuck · January 7, 2012, 07:52 AM

I recently posted a topic that included my reaction of partially clearing my cover garment when suddenly confronted by an individual displaying a holstered revolver(inadvertently on his part I assumed later).
The general comments were that I was overreacting even though at no time did I show my pistol and the other person never saw or noticed the move. Taking too much time to react can be fatal. Lots easier to apologize than to get hammered.

motorhead0922 · January 7, 2012, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evil Monkey

How about not going to these places.

Which places do you mean? A dark alley or a hockey game?

That said, I'll go where I want, when I want. But I'm not stupid.

Actually, this incident was made possible because law abiding citizens exiting the stadium were guaranteed to be unarmed.

Dwight55 · January 7, 2012, 10:31 AM

All the way back in recorded history, . . . even the Greeks were not immune to some "sports fans" wanting to take it to blood. They could not be satisfied with a foot race, a discus toss, etc. but had to have blood in order to be satisfied.

They were the savage animals in human clothing then, and nothing has changed all these thousands of years later. We still have individuals being born in hospitals, given social security numbers, sent to school, taken to church, and they still are only savages in human clothing.

Put collars on em, cage em for life, and leave them in there, is the answer to the savages, . . . carry, practice, be ready to use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself is the answer for civilized folks.

May God bless,
Dwight

Lee Lapin · January 7, 2012, 12:27 PM

Hook,

That's what a lot of the real world looks like, contrary to what many people seem to think will happen. Thugs are mostly ambush predators and ambushes happen to people on the street much like they do to herbivores on the plains of Africa.

Go read http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html to start with. Take that to heart, Farnam knows whereof he speaks. For Cooper's Color Code as mentioned there, see http://www.teddytactical.com/Sharpen...0Awareness.htm but please note that Tom Givens' web address is actually http://www.rangemaster.com/ , there's a typo in the link as given in the article. If you're close to Memphis, Tom is an outstanding trainer.

Then go to http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html and study there for a while.

Go to http://www.paladin-press.com/product...ombat_Shooting and order yourself a copy of this little book. That one was mentioned in the short piece by Farnam at the first link, too.

And see http://shivworks.com/ . Southnarc's core curriculum is one of the best street defense offerings currently available IMHO.

BlackFeather · January 7, 2012, 02:09 PM

Lee, I'd like to add one to that.

http://mercop.com/

George seems to know his stuff, and knowing him he will come across this post.

**Frank Ettin** · January 7, 2012, 03:27 PM

Kind of the moral is that things can happen fast, and you can't know ahead of time what your problem will be and how much time you'll have to deal with it.

Also, looking at this situation, could it have been avoided? Avoidance is often the best defense.

Evil Monkey · January 8, 2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

and they still are only savages in human clothing

We are all savages. Some more than others.

Ben Towe · January 8, 2012, 04:02 PM

That's precisely right. We are a society made up of the highest order of predators. The most intelligent, cunning, reasoning creatures on the face of the earth.

January 6, 2012, 01:16 PM	#1
Hook686 Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2005 Location: USA The Great State of California Posts: 2,090	No time to think ... ... as it all happens so quickly. When I read online how people are going to do such and such if confronted, usually some sort of action that involves drawing thyeir CCW, I ponder this when watching the video. The assault happened so quick ... the guy was an ex-Marine, ... a LEO .... Yet he had no chance. How to avoid this type situation ? Is it possible other than by staying home ? http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...165707839.html __________________ Hook686 When the number of people in institutions reaches 51%, we change sides.

January 6, 2012, 01:24 PM	#2
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	From the video it is hard to say for certain, but it does appear that the Rangers fans did have an opportunity to remove themselves from the situation. In other words they probably should have simply run away. Now, having said that I am not really sure what I would have done, but when outnumber it is often the best defense. It is very easy to allow your anger and pride to overcome common sense. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

January 6, 2012, 01:33 PM	#3
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Not relevant to this forum. So moved to T and T __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

January 6, 2012, 02:05 PM	#4
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	From what I see, there wasn't much reason for him to go for a weapon. There was only one attacker, he was trained Military/LEO. If anything, from what I saw, he needs to work on his empty hand and interpersonal skills. Look at it this way, a preemptive draw would have likely cause more people to join and try to disarm him. Now, for your questions, interpersonal skills. Sports and ego cause a lot of injury, and apparently both men seemed to have too much to back down. The guy who threw the first blow could have just as easily been ignored. In a situation where I'm outnumbered, I'm not getting in a boxing match with the one guy, I'd rather DEFEND myself and not continue the fight. There's a lot more to self defense than punching and offensive attacks... __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

January 6, 2012, 04:24 PM	#7
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	When I try to think, nothing happens. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

January 6, 2012, 02:22 PM	#5
sigcurious Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 2011 Posts: 1,755	This is an example of why I'm glad to be out of New England, the yankees redsox fans get just as crazy. That being said, I don't think there's much that can be done to avoid a situation like this, other than keeping your mouth shut and not engaging. People sometimes commit random acts of violence, but in a situation, such as this, where sports teams are involved, there are a few additional factors that seem to escalate things IMHO. 1)People are already hyped up from the sporting event. 2) Frequently alcohol has been consumed and 3) There's already an Us vs Them mentality in place. These things combined with the notion that some people have a tendency to highly internalize the merits/wins/losses of their favorite sports teams. Leads to "your team sucks" being translated as "you suck" and other such irrational behavior. Things which shouldn't be taken personally get taken personally and tempers flare. Even if you avoided verbal conflict and were attacked in a situation like this, I think pulling a weapon would be a poor choice, as these things tend to happen in crowds of people often wearing just about the exact same thing. You may end up defending yourself against the wrong person.

January 6, 2012, 02:46 PM	#6
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Sometimes, things happen very quickly. There are no pat answers for what to do in those cases. It could be argued that training at escapes and deflections until they are ingrained reflex could be a useful thing. Helped me once, when I walked out the door of a Hooter's and avoided a sucker punch I barely saw out the corner of my eye. Idiot thought I was some other dude... I actually saw the other dude, though, and he was about my height and was not too far from where I was standing. Look on the attacker's face when his punch missed was classic, though... I suspect the look on my face was interesting. But I think knowing how not to take the full force of a strike, or how to get out of the way of a takedown, is a pretty handy skillset to have, whether one carries or is unarmed. Lots of options go out the window if one is knocked off balance, or stunned, or floored. Learning how to create some space could be critical to enabling a draw. (Note, though, that these guys probably couldn't carry, anyhow; most states don't seem to allow CCW at sporting events.) Bear in mind that being good at avoidance and deflection is not a guarantee, it just improves teh odds. The best thing is to avoid the problem in the first place. For me, that means I usually don't intentionally get all that close to crowds of loud drunks. I avoid darkened doorways, give alleyways a wide berth, and try to stop my vehicle so that I have room to maneuver around the car in front of me. And sometimes, even all that won't help. Best we can do is work on improving our odds, so that such behavior becomes unconscious action.

January 6, 2012, 05:57 PM	#8
MLeake Senior Member Join Date: November 15, 2007 Location: Outside KC, MO Posts: 10,128	Yeah... that's why muscle memory is crucial in many instances.

January 7, 2012, 07:31 AM	#9
BlueTrain Senior Member Join Date: September 26, 2005 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 6,141	That's true, although I was kidding. The thing is, you never know how or how well you'll react in any given situation or if you'll do the same thing the next time. It almost doesn't matter what it is. There are dozens of real-life situations, not remotely fantasies, that can happen over the course of one's lifetime. I don't mean "home invasions" (the current expression for burglarly) but automobile accidents, falling objects, falling people, accidents in the home, confrontations with panhandlers, wild animals, nosy neighbors, door to door salesmen and so on. So people remain cool, others go to pieces. You just won't know until you've had the experiences. And my muscles aren't what they used to be, if they ever were. __________________ Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds.

January 7, 2012, 07:38 AM	#10
Evil Monkey Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 812	How about not going to these places. __________________ BREAKING NEWS: Local man found in the street yelling "1911" and "45" while drooling, more at 11:00.

January 7, 2012, 07:52 AM	#11
Mobuck Junior member Join Date: February 2, 2010 Posts: 6,846	I recently posted a topic that included my reaction of partially clearing my cover garment when suddenly confronted by an individual displaying a holstered revolver(inadvertently on his part I assumed later). The general comments were that I was overreacting even though at no time did I show my pistol and the other person never saw or noticed the move. Taking too much time to react can be fatal. Lots easier to apologize than to get hammered.

January 7, 2012, 10:31 AM	#13
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	All the way back in recorded history, . . . even the Greeks were not immune to some "sports fans" wanting to take it to blood. They could not be satisfied with a foot race, a discus toss, etc. but had to have blood in order to be satisfied. They were the savage animals in human clothing then, and nothing has changed all these thousands of years later. We still have individuals being born in hospitals, given social security numbers, sent to school, taken to church, and they still are only savages in human clothing. Put collars on em, cage em for life, and leave them in there, is the answer to the savages, . . . carry, practice, be ready to use whatever force is necessary to protect yourself is the answer for civilized folks. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

January 7, 2012, 12:27 PM	#14
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	Hook, That's what a lot of the real world looks like, contrary to what many people seem to think will happen. Thugs are mostly ambush predators and ambushes happen to people on the street much like they do to herbivores on the plains of Africa. Go read http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2003/19Mar03.html to start with. Take that to heart, Farnam knows whereof he speaks. For Cooper's Color Code as mentioned there, see http://www.teddytactical.com/Sharpen...0Awareness.htm but please note that Tom Givens' web address is actually http://www.rangemaster.com/ , there's a typo in the link as given in the article. If you're close to Memphis, Tom is an outstanding trainer. Then go to http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html and study there for a while. Go to http://www.paladin-press.com/product...ombat_Shooting and order yourself a copy of this little book. That one was mentioned in the short piece by Farnam at the first link, too. And see http://shivworks.com/ . Southnarc's core curriculum is one of the best street defense offerings currently available IMHO. __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill. Last edited by Lee Lapin; January 7, 2012 at 12:33 PM.

January 7, 2012, 02:09 PM	#15
BlackFeather Senior Member Join Date: May 12, 2009 Location: West Coast Posts: 450	Lee, I'd like to add one to that. http://mercop.com/ George seems to know his stuff, and knowing him he will come across this post. __________________ "Today is victory over yourself of yesterday; tomorrow is your victory over lesser men." - Miyamoto Musashi [Insert random irrelevant religious quote here]

January 7, 2012, 03:27 PM	#16
Frank Ettin Staff Join Date: November 23, 2005 Location: California - San Francisco Posts: 9,471	Kind of the moral is that things can happen fast, and you can't know ahead of time what your problem will be and how much time you'll have to deal with it. Also, looking at this situation, could it have been avoided? Avoidance is often the best defense.

January 8, 2012, 04:02 PM	#18
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	+1 Evil Monkey That's precisely right. We are a society made up of the highest order of predators. The most intelligent, cunning, reasoning creatures on the face of the earth. __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

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