Winchester primers

[Benzene]

I'd be glad to hear our resident experts sound-off in comparing Winchester large pistol primers (for the 45ACP) with equivalent CCI primers. And why does Lee recommend against Fedral primers to be used in his machines? Thanks.

[Ifishsum]

Mr. Lee believes the Federal primers are more sensitive and hot enough to injure you if they all happen to go off in the priming tool. Not saying it's true, but that's what he states in his book.

As far as win vs CCI, I don't think there's much difference. I use CCI mostly but don't have a good reason as to why - I think I just like the silver color

[918v]

There is a definite difference between the three. If you take time to work-up the most accurate load for your gun, primer choice will either make or break that load.

[Benzene]

So, would you kindly share your choice from among the three, 918v? Thanks.

[918v]

There is no favorite choice. One load might prefer Winchester. Another might like CCI. It is up to your gun.

[Monkey]

Ok, first of all, please keep in mind that I am still a novice at handloading. All I've loaded so far is .45 ACP and .44 Rem Mag.

Federal 150's were the first primer I tried, because most of the recipe books I referenced called for it. I would frequently see dinged up primers on the loaded round. I soon discovered that the marks were actually made from powder flakes on the primer seating stem (I was then using Red Dot.) Of course, keeping the press clean eliminated that problem.

When I ran out of the Federal's, the store I went to only had Winchesters. Since the switch, no more dinged up primers.

Also, with the Federal's, nearly all of the fired rounds had flattened primers. That made me think that I was doing something wrong. Not so with the Win.

[WESHOOT2]

918V is spot-on.

That said, the WLP is a fine choice.
Me? I prefer CCI and Federal for large pistol primers.

[amamnn]

I've had the best luck with Federal and I use Gold Medal primers in all my competition loads. I've found the regular grade of Federal primers to be consitently hot enough to light up my powder uniformly. The Gold Medals I use just for extra insurance. I quit using CCI or Winchester after 2 experiences I had with them.
1. The only time I ever had a primer fail to ignite it was during a competition. It was a CCI benchrest primer.
2. I had some rounds which I had loaded using Winchester primers. For various reasons I decided to disassemble those rounds and put the primed brass in a gun and fired them off. The first one went off with a bang
as did the next two. The fourth went off with a wimpy pop. Out of 20 rounds, 5 were weak like that. I gave the rest of my Winchester primers to a friend who loads for close range deer hunting. Out of curiosity he did the same thing with some Winchester primers he had from a different lot. He had the same results.
I've been told Richard Lee and some other long time reloaders don't like to handle Federal primers for various reasons, not just because they are hotter than the rest. Federal shotshell primers do not feed well in some auto primer feeders and Federal rifle and handgun primers are boxed in such a way as to make it easy to get some upside down in auto feeders when loading the reservoir. The reason is that Federal primers are boxed individually standing like a coin on end rather than flat like the others. You cannot just put the container under your inverted primer pan and turn it over to load the primers.
In the bad old days when primers were made of different stuff, and really did ignite with some regularity, everyone shipped primers this way to try to avoid setting off whole cases at a time. Federal says they just like to be safe and their primers are no more likely to fire off accidentally than anyone else's.

[John28226]

I used nothing but Federal large pistol primers for many years. I load only
.45 ACP. I ran out and the local shop was out too, so I bought some CCI and some Winchester. I like the Winchester package BUT the only failure to fire that I have experienced has been with the Winchester. My guns have had the trigger modified by a very competent gunsmith who recommended the Federal primers.

I found that he was correct and will, in the future, wait for Federals.

Wish the Hazmat shipping did not make them impossible to mail order.

John
Charlotte, NC

[Coltdriver]

There is a definite difference in the thickness of the primer metal. The federal primers are thinner than the Remington primers for instance. That may contribute to your flattening.

If you have a chronometer it is possible to see a difference in fps for the same load between different primers.

[Leftoverdj]

Federal primers were not always packaged in the trays with the individual cups. They were sold in slotted trays like everyone else uses until 15-20 years ago. Lee ain't just blowing smoke when they say that Federal primers can chainfire in their priming system. I had it happen in a Pro1000 before the warnings went out.

Nevertheless, Federal primers are the universal choice of PPC shooters in their tuned match revolvers. They will give 100% ignition in guns with very light double action pulls. CCI are the least sensitive and the most prone to give misfires. I'm not shooting competition these days and have been shooting Winchester which are nearly as sensitive as Federals without the safety issues and at a very good local price. Haven't run into a problem in about 35k primers so they are good enough for me.

[Buckythebrewer]

Not to sound rude but I get a kick out of comparing the different primers.EVERYbody has different results with different loads in different guns..They are appinions without facts and there is no way to confirm one experience will be duplicated in another gun or load..I believe tuning your proper powder+powder charge to bullet/seating and gun config is the key..My rifle shoots under MOA @625yrds It doesn't matter if im using federal 205 or winchester(both small rifle primers)..Both of those primers ignite the charge properly and that is there only job.I feel you will find far more inconsistencies then primer ignition in your loads.There are so many other factors that can make you have the impression that one primer is better than the other(temp/weather conditions,powder,etc,etc)I just don't buy into the magic of primers..either they are consistent or they are defective..Maybe magnum primers being the exception when you have to burn alot of powder(I don't know)Im sure im going to get a thrashing over this but I had to say it

[pumpkinheaver]

I use winchester primers because that is what is most readilly available in my area. I work my load around the primer.

[918v]

They are appinions without facts and there is no way to confirm one experience will be duplicated in another gun or load..

As is your experience. If you have a combo that shoots the same with every primer, that does not mean that another combo will shoot well with every primer. The primer is a variable, and it is easy to manipulate. Primers are so cheap, that it makes sense to buy a hundred of each kind and experiment.

I can tell you for a fact that in 9mm handguns, the primer will either make or break a load. They are that finicky.

[Buckythebrewer]

918 v I admit I have limited experience with loading for handguns..The desert eagle is one that many claim shoot better with cci rather than winchester(we were trying to load-up reliable loads for his 44 desert eagle) so ill keep my mouth shut from here on OUT on this subject

[Rico567]

An amazing number of "primer" threads, and the endless comparisons among brands, repeat the following themes:

1) "I buy what's available." (.....so it's the best primer)

2) "I had a problem with WLP primers, so everybody else must, too." (.....other people's experience to the contrary notwithstanding)

3) "I've never had a problem with Federal primers, so it follows that Richard Lee is wrong." (....and all Lee equipment is bad)

None of these things, I think, can be regarded as anything but opinion. What is pretty clear is that primers vary somewhat among the various manufacturers; thickness of the cup metal, the hotness and duration of burn of the priming mixture, and to a slight degree, even height and diameter. While there is an industry spec for the latter, as far as many of the other variables are concerned, I know of none. So I think I agree with those posters who have concluded that you simply must experiment with various primers, just as you would powder, bullets, etc., in order to find the optimum loads for YOU.

Also, "Leftoverdj" is correct: Lee proscribes Federal primers because they are concerned about chainfires in their auto primer system. Up to you; if you want to use 'em, use 'em. It's your equipment, eyes, etc. And just because you've loaded Federals 50K times, doesn't mean number 50,001 isn't going to detonate. One of the first things I noted when I got my Dillon 650 was the heavy steel blast shield tube ('cause that's what it IS) surrounding the primer feed tube. That's not there simply as a redundancy, folks, it's there because these things happen (and not necessarily just with Federal primers). It reminds us that reloading is an inherently hazardous activity, and we can't change that, we can only manage the risks.

[Buckythebrewer]

I have used them both Win/federal in my handheld priming tool But I was very nervous when I used the federal .I too believe that there are warnings for a reason.I use lee products and believe they try to keep people alive and reloading so they can make there money.I use winchester because they have performed excellent in my long range RIFLE ammo and also because of the warnings from lee.They show pressure signs earlier as well...as far as the handheld priming tool goes Federal 205 scare the shi* out of me sometimes because they fit so DAMN tight in my LC brass..

[azredhawk44]

Winchester priming compound is optimized to ignite ball powders. CCI priming compound is optimized to ignite extruded powders.

Granted, I shoot with iron sights... but I see about a 1" difference in group size at 100 yards between Winchester-under-extruded versus CCI-under-extruded in my M1A. If I used a scope I would expect that variation to be considerably less, but still noticeable.

I've never noticed a difference in handguns... bullet selection seems to be the biggest variable there, since velocity isn't going to make-or-break your shot until at least 100 yards, and I don't shoot pistol at 100 yards.

[Unclenick]

Using Federal 210M to light Accurate 2520 under the ubiquitous 168 gr. SMK, my M1A groups dropped from 1.25" to 0.75" at 100 yards after I started deburring the flashholes in the cases. Couldn't see any difference with stick powders though. Seems like ball is just enough harder to light that its ignition was facilitated by that extra step.

As Leftoverdj described, I had a number of failures to fire CCI primers in my old DW .357 because of a target spring kit in it that lightened the hammer blow. Switching to the softer Federals fixed that, so I've used them ever since. I won't put them through my Lee Autoprime because it indents them. I don't have that problem seating the with the K&M tool, nor in either of my Dillons.

Nick

[Ruger4570]

Son of a Gun, I have been reloading since 1960 and I think I had 1 primer fail to light up in all that time. I use all brands and other than the old rounded ones, I have never had a problem. Guess these forums would dry up if someone didn't have something negative to say about brand x, y or z or I just have been blessed with BAD luck and never had a thing to bitch about.

[amamnn]

After having the two bad experiences related to them, I've been prompted over the years to experiment with primers quite a bit since I am not one to just take as gospel what some old grouch (like me) has to say about them. Or anything else for that matter. I've found that the primer can make a difference in performance. But, like all the variables involved in handloading, primer selection is not going to make a HUGE improvement. It's merely one more thing to help shave a 1/16 MOA or so off the groups.
The major difference in primers seems to be their consistency. The manufacturers have recognized that and addressed the issue by making match grade primers, alleged to be made to much closer tolerances than their ordinary runs. So, there is variation even withing brands. I've tried every primer I could get my hands on (regular and match) in identical loads before settling on Federals. Certainly they may not be for everyone; the Gold Medal match grade primers are definitely more spendy than most folks would consider worthwhile. I have a good relationship with a local shop that will order primers for me 1000 at a time and only charge me cost + 10% so I order the best ones I can.
I believe Mr. Lee has made the points I mentioned before in the new version of modern reloading, in addition to his assertion that Federal primers can ignite in the equipment. I don't remember if he himself had that happen, and I don't care to go searching through the book again to see. The other folks with whom I have had the opportunity to explore the subject have all repeated the same thing. So far, I have never met anyone who actually had it happen to them with Federal or any other primer. However, I have had Federal shot shell primers get stuck in the Lee primer feeder. This was another case of my just having to see for myself and Mr. Lee was of course, right.
BTW, the packaging info was courtesy of Federal's customer service folks, with whom I have also had a few conversations. I guess they consider 15 years ago to be the brown shoe days. It seems to me that I remember all the primers coming that way back when I learned to load, but that's a whole lot longer than 15 years and I could be wrong.

[Buckythebrewer]

azredhawk44,PERFECT EXAMPLE of what I was saying..I use extruded h4895(also had good luck with extruded 2015br) with winchester primers and shoot well under MOA @ 625 yards.A perfect example of to different experiences that contradict each other..I have shot a 1/8 of an inch 4 shot group as well as many 1/2 groups with heavy 77gr smk in my 1/8 twist dpms..I believe your experience to be true but there are so many variables that can effect results and since my ar15 has used winchester + federal with good accuracy I stick with winchester for safety and excelent accuracyand also Ive never had a misfire while using them..I do believe the 5 federal misfires I had were probably me forgeting to clean my primer pockets and seating 100%properly,I'll take the blame