Another silly question on "used" BP pistols - Page 2

Sabot · November 23, 2009, 11:34 PM

I just wanted to show everyone the auction I was talking about.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=146083616

The original auction I won was given to someone else who had a late payment and I was allowed to choose this one instead. In the auction it says "Gun looks new and unfired." It is in very good condition on the outside, on the inside the teeth on the cylinder are all chewed up, and at the bottom of the hammer is something I think would act like a cam that is almost completely worn off. This gun has seen a lot of use. I called the seller today and he still insisted that the gun was unfired and proceeded to tell me how much experience he had buying and selling hundreds of guns. When I told him that I had taken the gun apart to look inside, he screamed "I DIDN'T TELL YOU TO TAKE IT APART", and then threatened to not give me a refund if the gun came back to him in non-working condition. Either this guy isn't too smart or he's very dishonest because it isn't very hard to tell that the gun was well used even without taking it apart. The gun will be on it's way back to the seller tomorrow, we'll see how honest this person is.

Sabot · November 23, 2009, 11:45 PM

and one more thing

this expert at buying and selling guns said it was .28 caliber

isn't it a .31

Doc Hoy · November 24, 2009, 06:38 AM

The seller has 312 feedbacks with an A+ rating. It is difficult to believe that:

1. He could not tell that the pistol was not in the condition he described
2. That he would describe the condition of a pistol when he really did not know the condition.
3. That he would have a problem with the inspection of the pistol which has become pretty much accepted.
4. That your inspection was pretty much a simple field strip (I am ASSUMING here) which is part of every day operation of the pistol and can be done without harming the pistol.

In the seller's defense, in the first 30 feedbacks, I found no other BP revolvers.

I have over 500 feedbacks on eBay with a 100% positive rating. I often sell stuff I know nothing about, but I always say so and it always goes cheap because I can not verify the condition.

"myankey" is a good name to treat with a healthier respect than other GBsellers I have dealt with.

mykeal · November 24, 2009, 07:58 AM

I just took a look at the Gunbroker ad. This is EXACTLY the kind of ad I would avoid at all costs.

First, he specifies the item is to be sold "AS IS. No refunds or exchanges." This position is indefensible when dealing with used firearms. Any, and I mean ANY honest dealer will not only agree to an inspection period, he'll insist on it to protect himself.

The first rule about buying guns on the internet:
NEVER, EVER BUY A GUN UNSEEN WITHOUT A MINIMUM 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD WITH A MONEY BACK NO-QUESTIONS-ASKED GUARANTEE. NEVER.

Second, he states the gun looks (emphasis is mine) new and unfired. If you're buying the gun for appearance only, that's just fine. But if you want it to actually work, the word "looks" is a big red flag; the fact that it only looks good means, by default, that it doesn't work good.

Finally, the caliber is mis-stated. There's no excuse for that. I don't care how many guns you claim you've sold, if you don't know the caliber, you don't know what you're talking about. Doc, you may have sold things you didn't know anything about, but you admitted it up front. This guy not only didn't admit it, he still claims he's an expert.

The A+ rating and 312 positive feedbacks is the only plus in the ad. I have to wonder how he earned them given the obvious clues to his dishonesty in the ad.

There are plenty of reasons in this ad to stay away from this seller. In the end, myankee took advantage of Sabot and should take the gun back, but frankly I'm hard pressed to say Sabot wasn't warned.

Sabot · November 24, 2009, 08:14 PM

I thought I was fairly safe with this seller who had an A+ rating and 312 positive feedbacks. Where it is specified the item is to be sold "AS IS. No refunds or exchanges", I didn't even see that until you brought it to my attention. Yes, I was warned, but I didn't see the flags. I guess this will just have to be an expensive learning experience. The gun is now on it's journey back to the seller, I probably won't get a refund either.

I thought if I shared this experience with everyone then the burn wouldn't hurt so bad.

mykeal · November 24, 2009, 08:21 PM

Having a learning experience means you're alive and well. Many people would have that experience and learn nothing, so you're way ahead of them.

Gaucho Gringo · November 27, 2009, 05:37 AM

In all my buying and selling on the internet, I have learned to be wary of people who misspell common words repeatedly and make repeated errors in grammar. I am not trying to be an elitist and a misspelled word or mistake in grammar once in a while doesn't raise any flags with me but repeated instances does. Also I am wary of people posting feedback that make personal attacks on the seller or buyer. A few years back when I was selling used high end stereo equipment from the 60's & 70's, I could almost tell which buyers were problematic by their emails with questions on what I was selling. It wasn't 100% but it was maybe in the 90-95% range.The majority of the buyers were nice and easy to deal with but there was that certain percentage of problem buyers. The same thing holds true for sellers. If I don't feel comfortable with the seller, I just walk away. I sold over 3,000 items on Ebay in a period of 4 years. I am going to start selling off a lot of my personal equipment due to fact that my wife and I are going to move into a smaller house now that the kids are grown. It is going to be back to the Ebay grind.

Sabot · November 29, 2009, 02:05 PM

I sent the gun back and the seller received it Saturday.

He kept my money and relisted the item.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=148391066

Is there any recourse I can take?

mykeal · November 29, 2009, 02:07 PM

If he kept your money and the item, you can do two things. First, file a complaint with Gunbroker.com. Second, contact the county prosecutor in the county where he lives and ask to file a complaint for fraud using the internet.

arcticap · November 29, 2009, 10:16 PM

If he only received it back on Saturday then how do you know that he's keeping your money?
He needs to be given a reasonable amount of time to return the money.
Did he state in writing that he wouldn"t return your money?

I agree with mykeal that you should contact Gunbroker as soon as possible since they do offer fraud protection and can investigate and suspend his account if necessary.
The fact the he has relisted the returned item means that he received it back from you undamaged.
And many states have laws protecting the consumer when buying mail order products and which also gives buyers the right to return goods for a refund.

You should have taken pictures of the wear and damage that the gun had when you took it apart to prove that it wasn't in new condition. Then he can't dispute your claim about the condition of the gun.
Gunbroker gives you the right to return it for any reason anyway. Exhaust your avenues to complain through them first.

Sabot · November 30, 2009, 12:12 AM

From the way this guy had talked to me on the phone, literally yelling at me, and his behavior of not responding to my e-mails, I thought he was going to burn me for sure. And when I saw the gun re-listed without hearing anything from him about a sending a refund I got suspicious.

I once had a supervisor who used to say... "The less you are told, the more you assume". Communication is seriously important in a business transaction.

I received a reply to an e-mail today, he said the check is in the mail. I guess I jumped the gun you could say. Hopefully it won't be another surprise.

Doc Hoy · November 30, 2009, 04:17 AM

I check pistols on Gunbroker about once every three days.

I generally have a list of pistols or parts I am watching. I stick to 1849, 51, 58, 60, 61, 62, & 63 & ROA.

My reaction to the pistols this guy has for sale is almost always that his starting prices are a little high. I have not bothered to check how his sales are going to see if others agree with me. But I frequently do not watch his pistols because of the high opening price. There is another guy who sells pistols he has taken apart, selling the parts for more than the value of the whole pistol. I am not talking about "Old Western Scrounger" (Val Forgett III). He keeps his opening prices low and allows the market to determine value. Ships pretty slow but packages well.

As a philosophical point, an "as-is" auction on a site like gunbroker is a tiny bit different from an "as-is" face to face transaction. It places a very high threshold on the seller to completely and accurately describe the condition, because that condition is the premise for the sale. If a buyer is agreeing to an as-is sale, then the item, as described must be essentially identical to the item, as received.

I have been selling and buying on eBay since 1996. I have a 100% positive feedback rating. I never describe anything as "as-is" because it is an open invitation for conflict. I simply cannot describe any item well enough that I could feel that I have done justice to the description. I always give a no-questions-asked guarantee. I have only been questioned one time. I returned the money and never got the item (A Zee scale railroad car) back. Its a chance you take.

The seller that Sabot is speaking of easily has enough experience to know that when he says a pistol "looks unfired" that includes the "look" of the bore and the chambers. He also knows that "Looks unfired" carries with it an unspoken assumption that buyer will expect that the pistol will also operate as though it were unfired. The ad may not say that, but both parties know it.

It was not just an inadvertent omission to fail to describe the pistol as not fully functional. It was a clever ploy verging on blatant dishonesty.

I, personally, would not do business this way.

madcratebuilder · November 30, 2009, 08:23 AM

Small world, I just bought a gun from the same guy.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=146817970
He described it as unfired but the photo clearly shows the corrosion on it. I'm going to refinish anyway so I didn't care. He cold blued it right over the rust. I have it striped and mostly down to smooth steel. If I had bought this based on his description I would be very ****** off.

Doc Hoy · November 30, 2009, 09:33 AM

After I made my last post, I went to GB and put a bunch of his auctions on watch, just to satisfy my curiosity. He has a bunch of revolvers for sale. Most of them appear to be in less than average condition. Most of them seem to me to be priced higher than is warranted. (I am watching them to find out how many of them sell and that the price is for the sales.)

Sabot · November 30, 2009, 09:23 PM

After he received the gun back from me it was immediately put up for auction. "Gun looks new and unfired" has been removed from the description and the price has been reduced from $199.00 to $175.00. I would assume the gun in the condition that I received it in was not repaired and is very dangerous, the cylinder bolt does not work and the cylinder does not line up with the barrel.

mykeal · November 30, 2009, 11:28 PM

Be careful with the hyperbole: 'very dangerous'.

Failure to lock up in battery is not a 'very dangerous' condition, nor is failure of the bolt to lock the cylinder in place, in my opinion. However, if it were dangerous, and you sent the gun back with knowledge of that danger, you could be liable for damages if someone were injured.

Doc Hoy · December 1, 2009, 06:21 AM

We had a discussion about this very instance in my class last night. The class is PSYC305 but it has nothing to do with psychology. The discussion last night involved the application of ethics in conflict situations. All of the students are business majors.

Only one of the class members thought that the seller had done no wrong. That student also mentioned the legal ramifications of the situation as you did. But she was concerned about a slander charge by the seller, citing this forum.

mykeal · December 1, 2009, 08:43 AM

The fact that a business major feels that intentional omission of pertinent facts regarding condition of the article for sale is "doing no wrong" leads one to question whether she has any concept of the word 'ethics'. There can be no question that the seller is aware of the deficiencies in condition; while I don't realistically expect him to say, "This gun is a POS", I do think a simple, "action needs work" is called for.

Doc Hoy · December 1, 2009, 10:00 AM

Absolutely.

And the majority of the class agrees. In fact, their point was precisely as you have described. The seller committed sin of omission and very likely, it was deliberate. I will avoid him in the future for five reasons.

1. Misleading (and this is putting it kindly) ads.
2. Terrible attitude following the sale.
3. "As-is" refund policy
4. $20.00 shipping on a pistol which can be mailed priority for a little over a third that amount.
5. High (opinion) prices.

She was focusing on the technical accuracy of the ad. In every class I find at least one student who wants to over-lawyer things. And as you say, these business majors get only one class in law and one in ethics both of which are in the future for them.

This is why these students are just that, students.

As the class broke up, she left, saying (with her mouth) that the seller was technically correct and thus it was up to Sabot to choose to buy or not to buy. My sense though is that, given a similar situation she might arrive at a different conclusion. Her ego would not allow her to acknowledge that in the classroom. But this was a class in ethics, not in human nature.

As the professor of the class, I could call her attention to the nuances of the transaction that we have already discussed here. But I could not force her to take a different position.

I really had a good time doing that discussion. I hope that ALL of the students had an opportunity to learn something. We will never know.

Sabot · December 1, 2009, 09:54 PM

Hey, guess what? I got my refund.

The seller returned $175.00 of the $199.00 price of the gun. He stole a lot less than I expected him to, it must have been a 12.5% restocking fee. Shipping both ways + restocking fee, what a value for almost 2 weeks of anger and frustration.

Doc - Explain to the wayward student that law is not the same as justice, and that some of us still have God in our lives guiding us with moral values.

Remember... If you ever get caught telling a whopper of lie, just say "I misspoke" - Hillary Clinton

mykeal · December 1, 2009, 10:20 PM

I notice this seller still has an A+ rating with only one negative feedback, and none in the last 30 days. With two forum members having had unsatisfactory experiences I would have expected that to be changing rapidly.

You guys owe the buyers on Gunbroker.com the benefit of your experience. Leave some feedback, or don't ever complain about Gunbroker purchases.

His failure to refund your entire cost is completely unacceptable. Don't take this lying down.

Sabot · December 1, 2009, 11:25 PM

I'll do just that... after the check clears.

He has 4 negative feedbacks, and if you read through some of the positive ones you still see complaints.

edteach · April 4, 2014, 08:25 AM

I am glad I ran across this posting. I was looking at a Remington new model for 1800 he had. It brought up a few bells when he said he had a bad camera and could not take better photos or any photos of the address on the barrel. It looks like it has been sprayed with clear coat and he said it was oil. I also don't like it that I would have to send in cash and wait. I would have no recourse if he lied about the condition. I found one in better condition for a bit more but its credit card friendly and if there is any problem I can get my money back. Myankee on GB has now 16 Neg feed backs and many talk about him yelling and trying to bully buyers.

November 23, 2009, 11:34 PM	#26
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	I just wanted to show everyone the auction I was talking about. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=146083616 The original auction I won was given to someone else who had a late payment and I was allowed to choose this one instead. In the auction it says "Gun looks new and unfired." It is in very good condition on the outside, on the inside the teeth on the cylinder are all chewed up, and at the bottom of the hammer is something I think would act like a cam that is almost completely worn off. This gun has seen a lot of use. I called the seller today and he still insisted that the gun was unfired and proceeded to tell me how much experience he had buying and selling hundreds of guns. When I told him that I had taken the gun apart to look inside, he screamed "I DIDN'T TELL YOU TO TAKE IT APART", and then threatened to not give me a refund if the gun came back to him in non-working condition. Either this guy isn't too smart or he's very dishonest because it isn't very hard to tell that the gun was well used even without taking it apart. The gun will be on it's way back to the seller tomorrow, we'll see how honest this person is. Last edited by Sabot; November 23, 2009 at 11:43 PM. Reason: was not finished typing

November 24, 2009, 06:38 AM	#28
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	As Ronald Reagan alway said, "Well...." The seller has 312 feedbacks with an A+ rating. It is difficult to believe that: 1. He could not tell that the pistol was not in the condition he described 2. That he would describe the condition of a pistol when he really did not know the condition. 3. That he would have a problem with the inspection of the pistol which has become pretty much accepted. 4. That your inspection was pretty much a simple field strip (I am ASSUMING here) which is part of every day operation of the pistol and can be done without harming the pistol. In the seller's defense, in the first 30 feedbacks, I found no other BP revolvers. I have over 500 feedbacks on eBay with a 100% positive rating. I often sell stuff I know nothing about, but I always say so and it always goes cheap because I can not verify the condition. "myankey" is a good name to treat with a healthier respect than other GBsellers I have dealt with. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 27, 2009, 05:37 AM	#32
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	In all my buying and selling on the internet, I have learned to be wary of people who misspell common words repeatedly and make repeated errors in grammar. I am not trying to be an elitist and a misspelled word or mistake in grammar once in a while doesn't raise any flags with me but repeated instances does. Also I am wary of people posting feedback that make personal attacks on the seller or buyer. A few years back when I was selling used high end stereo equipment from the 60's & 70's, I could almost tell which buyers were problematic by their emails with questions on what I was selling. It wasn't 100% but it was maybe in the 90-95% range.The majority of the buyers were nice and easy to deal with but there was that certain percentage of problem buyers. The same thing holds true for sellers. If I don't feel comfortable with the seller, I just walk away. I sold over 3,000 items on Ebay in a period of 4 years. I am going to start selling off a lot of my personal equipment due to fact that my wife and I are going to move into a smaller house now that the kids are grown. It is going to be back to the Ebay grind. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

November 29, 2009, 10:16 PM	#35
arcticap Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2005 Location: Central Connecticut Posts: 3,166	If he only received it back on Saturday then how do you know that he's keeping your money? He needs to be given a reasonable amount of time to return the money. Did he state in writing that he wouldn"t return your money? I agree with mykeal that you should contact Gunbroker as soon as possible since they do offer fraud protection and can investigate and suspend his account if necessary. The fact the he has relisted the returned item means that he received it back from you undamaged. And many states have laws protecting the consumer when buying mail order products and which also gives buyers the right to return goods for a refund. You should have taken pictures of the wear and damage that the gun had when you took it apart to prove that it wasn't in new condition. Then he can't dispute your claim about the condition of the gun. Gunbroker gives you the right to return it for any reason anyway. Exhaust your avenues to complain through them first. Last edited by arcticap; November 29, 2009 at 10:24 PM.

November 30, 2009, 04:17 AM	#37
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Learning experience (Almost entirely my opinion) I check pistols on Gunbroker about once every three days. I generally have a list of pistols or parts I am watching. I stick to 1849, 51, 58, 60, 61, 62, & 63 & ROA. My reaction to the pistols this guy has for sale is almost always that his starting prices are a little high. I have not bothered to check how his sales are going to see if others agree with me. But I frequently do not watch his pistols because of the high opening price. There is another guy who sells pistols he has taken apart, selling the parts for more than the value of the whole pistol. I am not talking about "Old Western Scrounger" (Val Forgett III). He keeps his opening prices low and allows the market to determine value. Ships pretty slow but packages well. As a philosophical point, an "as-is" auction on a site like gunbroker is a tiny bit different from an "as-is" face to face transaction. It places a very high threshold on the seller to completely and accurately describe the condition, because that condition is the premise for the sale. If a buyer is agreeing to an as-is sale, then the item, as described must be essentially identical to the item, as received. I have been selling and buying on eBay since 1996. I have a 100% positive feedback rating. I never describe anything as "as-is" because it is an open invitation for conflict. I simply cannot describe any item well enough that I could feel that I have done justice to the description. I always give a no-questions-asked guarantee. I have only been questioned one time. I returned the money and never got the item (A Zee scale railroad car) back. Its a chance you take. The seller that Sabot is speaking of easily has enough experience to know that when he says a pistol "looks unfired" that includes the "look" of the bore and the chambers. He also knows that "Looks unfired" carries with it an unspoken assumption that buyer will expect that the pistol will also operate as though it were unfired. The ad may not say that, but both parties know it. It was not just an inadvertent omission to fail to describe the pistol as not fully functional. It was a clever ploy verging on blatant dishonesty. I, personally, would not do business this way. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 23, 2009, 11:45 PM	#27
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	and one more thing this expert at buying and selling guns said it was .28 caliber isn't it a .31

November 24, 2009, 07:58 AM	#29
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	I just took a look at the Gunbroker ad. This is EXACTLY the kind of ad I would avoid at all costs. First, he specifies the item is to be sold "AS IS. No refunds or exchanges." This position is indefensible when dealing with used firearms. Any, and I mean ANY honest dealer will not only agree to an inspection period, he'll insist on it to protect himself. The first rule about buying guns on the internet: NEVER, EVER BUY A GUN UNSEEN WITHOUT A MINIMUM 3 DAY INSPECTION PERIOD WITH A MONEY BACK NO-QUESTIONS-ASKED GUARANTEE. NEVER. Second, he states the gun looks (emphasis is mine) new and unfired. If you're buying the gun for appearance only, that's just fine. But if you want it to actually work, the word "looks" is a big red flag; the fact that it only looks good means, by default, that it doesn't work good. Finally, the caliber is mis-stated. There's no excuse for that. I don't care how many guns you claim you've sold, if you don't know the caliber, you don't know what you're talking about. Doc, you may have sold things you didn't know anything about, but you admitted it up front. This guy not only didn't admit it, he still claims he's an expert. The A+ rating and 312 positive feedbacks is the only plus in the ad. I have to wonder how he earned them given the obvious clues to his dishonesty in the ad. There are plenty of reasons in this ad to stay away from this seller. In the end, myankee took advantage of Sabot and should take the gun back, but frankly I'm hard pressed to say Sabot wasn't warned.

November 24, 2009, 08:14 PM	#30
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	I thought I was fairly safe with this seller who had an A+ rating and 312 positive feedbacks. Where it is specified the item is to be sold "AS IS. No refunds or exchanges", I didn't even see that until you brought it to my attention. Yes, I was warned, but I didn't see the flags. I guess this will just have to be an expensive learning experience. The gun is now on it's journey back to the seller, I probably won't get a refund either. I thought if I shared this experience with everyone then the burn wouldn't hurt so bad.

November 24, 2009, 08:21 PM	#31
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Having a learning experience means you're alive and well. Many people would have that experience and learn nothing, so you're way ahead of them.

November 29, 2009, 02:05 PM	#33
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	I sent the gun back and the seller received it Saturday. He kept my money and relisted the item. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=148391066 Is there any recourse I can take?

November 29, 2009, 02:07 PM	#34
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	If he kept your money and the item, you can do two things. First, file a complaint with Gunbroker.com. Second, contact the county prosecutor in the county where he lives and ask to file a complaint for fraud using the internet.

November 30, 2009, 12:12 AM	#36
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	From the way this guy had talked to me on the phone, literally yelling at me, and his behavior of not responding to my e-mails, I thought he was going to burn me for sure. And when I saw the gun re-listed without hearing anything from him about a sending a refund I got suspicious. I once had a supervisor who used to say... "The less you are told, the more you assume". Communication is seriously important in a business transaction. I received a reply to an e-mail today, he said the check is in the mail. I guess I jumped the gun you could say. Hopefully it won't be another surprise.

November 30, 2009, 08:23 AM	#38
madcratebuilder Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2007 Location: Northern Orygun Posts: 4,923	Small world, I just bought a gun from the same guy. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=146817970 He described it as unfired but the photo clearly shows the corrosion on it. I'm going to refinish anyway so I didn't care. He cold blued it right over the rust. I have it striped and mostly down to smooth steel. If I had bought this based on his description I would be very ****** off.

November 30, 2009, 09:33 AM	#39
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	As Ronald Reagan alway said, "Well...." After I made my last post, I went to GB and put a bunch of his auctions on watch, just to satisfy my curiosity. He has a bunch of revolvers for sale. Most of them appear to be in less than average condition. Most of them seem to me to be priced higher than is warranted. (I am watching them to find out how many of them sell and that the price is for the sales.) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

November 30, 2009, 09:23 PM	#40
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	After he received the gun back from me it was immediately put up for auction. "Gun looks new and unfired" has been removed from the description and the price has been reduced from $199.00 to $175.00. I would assume the gun in the condition that I received it in was not repaired and is very dangerous, the cylinder bolt does not work and the cylinder does not line up with the barrel.

November 30, 2009, 11:28 PM	#41
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Be careful with the hyperbole: 'very dangerous'. Failure to lock up in battery is not a 'very dangerous' condition, nor is failure of the bolt to lock the cylinder in place, in my opinion. However, if it were dangerous, and you sent the gun back with knowledge of that danger, you could be liable for damages if someone were injured.

December 1, 2009, 06:21 AM	#42
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Sabot and Mykeal We had a discussion about this very instance in my class last night. The class is PSYC305 but it has nothing to do with psychology. The discussion last night involved the application of ethics in conflict situations. All of the students are business majors. Only one of the class members thought that the seller had done no wrong. That student also mentioned the legal ramifications of the situation as you did. But she was concerned about a slander charge by the seller, citing this forum. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

December 1, 2009, 08:43 AM	#43
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	The fact that a business major feels that intentional omission of pertinent facts regarding condition of the article for sale is "doing no wrong" leads one to question whether she has any concept of the word 'ethics'. There can be no question that the seller is aware of the deficiencies in condition; while I don't realistically expect him to say, "This gun is a POS", I do think a simple, "action needs work" is called for.

December 1, 2009, 10:00 AM	#44
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Mykeal, Absolutely. And the majority of the class agrees. In fact, their point was precisely as you have described. The seller committed sin of omission and very likely, it was deliberate. I will avoid him in the future for five reasons. 1. Misleading (and this is putting it kindly) ads. 2. Terrible attitude following the sale. 3. "As-is" refund policy 4. $20.00 shipping on a pistol which can be mailed priority for a little over a third that amount. 5. High (opinion) prices. She was focusing on the technical accuracy of the ad. In every class I find at least one student who wants to over-lawyer things. And as you say, these business majors get only one class in law and one in ethics both of which are in the future for them. This is why these students are just that, students. As the class broke up, she left, saying (with her mouth) that the seller was technically correct and thus it was up to Sabot to choose to buy or not to buy. My sense though is that, given a similar situation she might arrive at a different conclusion. Her ego would not allow her to acknowledge that in the classroom. But this was a class in ethics, not in human nature. As the professor of the class, I could call her attention to the nuances of the transaction that we have already discussed here. But I could not force her to take a different position. I really had a good time doing that discussion. I hope that ALL of the students had an opportunity to learn something. We will never know. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

December 1, 2009, 09:54 PM	#45
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	Hey, guess what? I got my refund. The seller returned $175.00 of the $199.00 price of the gun. He stole a lot less than I expected him to, it must have been a 12.5% restocking fee. Shipping both ways + restocking fee, what a value for almost 2 weeks of anger and frustration. Doc - Explain to the wayward student that law is not the same as justice, and that some of us still have God in our lives guiding us with moral values. Remember... If you ever get caught telling a whopper of lie, just say "I misspoke" - Hillary Clinton

December 1, 2009, 10:20 PM	#46
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	I notice this seller still has an A+ rating with only one negative feedback, and none in the last 30 days. With two forum members having had unsatisfactory experiences I would have expected that to be changing rapidly. You guys owe the buyers on Gunbroker.com the benefit of your experience. Leave some feedback, or don't ever complain about Gunbroker purchases. His failure to refund your entire cost is completely unacceptable. Don't take this lying down.

December 1, 2009, 11:25 PM	#47
Sabot Member Join Date: October 23, 2008 Location: Simi Valley, CA Posts: 34	I'll do just that... after the check clears. He has 4 negative feedbacks, and if you read through some of the positive ones you still see complaints.

April 4, 2014, 08:25 AM	#48
edteach Member Join Date: October 8, 2008 Posts: 95	I am glad I ran across this posting. I was looking at a Remington new model for 1800 he had. It brought up a few bells when he said he had a bad camera and could not take better photos or any photos of the address on the barrel. It looks like it has been sprayed with clear coat and he said it was oil. I also don't like it that I would have to send in cash and wait. I would have no recourse if he lied about the condition. I found one in better condition for a bit more but its credit card friendly and if there is any problem I can get my money back. Myankee on GB has now 16 Neg feed backs and many talk about him yelling and trying to bully buyers.