Ammo Load Mark X

RamSlammer · March 22, 2009, 12:31 AM

Anyone here have first hand experience running one of these? It's a commercial 3,000 round per hour fully automated loading machine.

I may can pick up a used version dirt cheap and was wondering if it's outside the scope of an individual reloader to manage. I load about 800 rounds of pistol ammo a month and with this thing that could be a 20 minute proposition.

PackerFan67 · April 16, 2009, 09:30 PM

I know this is a very late reply but... These are good machines. Just like any machine they need preventive maintenance and such. IF the machine is in good working order it a good price. Since you don't have a staff you would spend some time preparing the primer tubes, unless you got some equipment to speed that up. The actual machine will just need you to load brass, bullets, primers and powered. As long as you treat it right you can produce 1000s of rounds per hour.

PCJim · April 16, 2009, 09:43 PM

Very nice machines. If you can pick one up at a good price, I'd go for it.

Your only concern will be it's appetite. I don't see how one could keep up with it's eating habits in today's component shortage.

T. O'Heir · April 16, 2009, 09:45 PM

"...wondering if it's outside the scope of an individual reloader to manage..." Yep. That machine isn't likely to run on regular house electric supply either.
"...can pick up a used version dirt cheap..." Probably with no tooling.
For 800 rounds a month, a Dillon 550 machine will do.

webby4x4 · April 16, 2009, 09:52 PM

No experience with a machine like that, but something else to consider:

If this machine requires 3-phase 220V power, check with your local ordinance first. Many codes won't allow 3-phase 220V at the home - at least the last 2 places that I lived won't, which was a problem for an industrial air compressor that I picked up for free. Ultimately I had to sell it.

Sevens · April 16, 2009, 10:53 PM

And just how damn much cash are you talking to get a hold of something like that... used even?

That's nuts. For personal use, that's just plain nuts.

If you get one of those, you need to get your type 6 FFL (or whichever type it is) and go in to commercial ammo production.

I agree with the others... where the heck are you going to get brass by the truckload, bullets by the shipload and powder 800 pounds at a time?

Hell, we can't even get a brick of primers, and you want to run THAT monster! Good luck!

Still, I'd like to hear what the price is on that, used.

RamSlammer · April 17, 2009, 12:59 AM

Well, I determined (as you guys did also) that this was nuts for an individual to manage. Of course, now may be a profitable time to get into the ammo business for someone who can raise enough capital and negotiate supplier deals on components. Price was low 5 figures with other stuff included, but needed some rehab which would be expensive.

It is an incredible, amazing machine however.

Sevens · April 17, 2009, 10:00 AM

There is a poster on here named Freakshow10mm who has the FFL type "?" (I think it's type 6 or type 7) that is the Fed license to manufacture and sell ammunition. I'm not sure he ever actually went that route and is in the business of making and selling ammo, but he could give you the background on what it takes to produce ammo for sale.

I hate to be a pessimist (I call it being a realist) but right now, large retail outlets are having a very difficult time getting a hold of the components that make even slow reloading machines run.

You would have to find a way to get primers (which nobody can get) and bullets (which are running long order fulfillment times) and brass (which you'd have to get in a large lot from a manufacturer) and you'd also have to get the FFL and you'd certainly have to look in to the insurance and liability concerns that go along with producing ammo.

Possible? Of course! Business feeds the American dream. But this is a much bigger ball of wax than finding a hardcore piece of machinery and getting it running.

Even so, I find the entire topic quite interesting and I'm enjoying this thread.

jcims · April 21, 2009, 08:43 PM

I've been wondering about this myself recently. I wonder if you could start a little non-profit association between 5-10 folks and make it worth dropping coin on something like this. The ability for these systems to churn out 30-50K rounds over a weekend, with a few folks prepping, checking, packing, labeling, etc, seems like it could have real potential. The FFL license would presumably go to the association, and someone would have to handle the bookkeeping, but i can't imagine it would be a huge deal.

I shot a note to the Ammoload (Mark X) and Camdex folks asking for pricing/availability...will follow up with their response. Used market would vary widely of course.

Edit: Here's an expired Camdex auction on ebay for $20K (in Ohio even) http://cgi.ebay.com/CAMDEX-45-cal.-2...QQcmdZViewItem

jcims · April 22, 2009, 08:35 AM

Camdex got right back to me (I submitted a request via their web site).

The 2100 handles pistol calibers, runs ~$30K and $4500 for each additional caliber. Case processor is $17K and there is a packer for $10K.

The 2200 handles rifle calibers, startup costs there are going to be closer to $100K total between loader, case processor, trimmer, etc.

So for less than $200K you could have the capacity to churn out ~100K rounds per day ('supplies permitting' the obvious caveat). There is much much more to running a successful ammo company, but I have to say that the math isn't bad.

freakshow10mm · April 22, 2009, 09:06 AM

Yes, I make ammo commercially. I had an 06 FFL, which is the ammo maker's FFL but deactivated it when I got my 07 FFL (gun maker) last summer. With the 07 FFL I can do everything an 01 and 06 FFL does in addition to manufacturing firearms and is a prerequisite for being a Class 2 NFA manufacturer, which I also do.

I mainly sell locally but am beginning to start selling on my website again. I have a few loads listed in 9mm, 10mm, and .223 for now. I hope to add .45 Auto and maybe .41 Magnum later by early summer.

I also offer seasonal hunting ammunition geared toward youth and recoil sensitive shooters. They offer all the killing power of the headstamp cartridge, the .270, 308, and 30-06, but with recoil dead even with the .243 Win. High performance low recoil. These will be available on my site in the summer as well. I need to load up a good stock first.

Money is out there in the ammo business. Marketing is the hardest part. You will not be able to compete with the big boys, so don't try. If you price lower, you will not make money. You have to do something that they don't. Full power 10mm. Variety of .41 Mag loads. Standard loads in stock.

RamSlammer · April 22, 2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

There is much much more to running a successful ammo company, but I have to say that the math isn't bad.

Not bad at all. Have been researching further and am coming up with a $500,000 first year budget for 11 calibers. Includes commercial space, $1MM product liability insurance, staff of 2, benefits, etc. as well as significant $$ for marketing.

Supply cost is a variable expense. Components are the wildcard - ATK and others have supply available for manufacturers, but getting deals in place for ongoing purchases is essential. Breaks even at 280,000 rounds/month of common pistol and less than half that for specialty pistol and rifle.

I just may well jump in on this if everything continues to check out. Think it would make a great "retirement business".

jcims · April 22, 2009, 09:52 PM

Ammo Load got back to me mid morning (not bad response time from either company). The Mark X is for pistol cartridges, available today for a base price that is on par with the Camdex 2100. They are going to be releasing the Mark L in May, which will reload rifle cartrdges. This will run for a little less than what the Camdex 2200 is running (~$50K). I don't want to post the exact numbers, if you are interested you can contact the manufacturers here: AmmoLoad, Camdex.

If anyone knows of other manufacturers, feel free to post away. :P

Obviously freakshow10mm knows what he's talking about, and what he's saying makes a lot of sense. Build yourself a niche and don't try to win on price...you aren't going to be able to compete with offshore folks on labor costs or risk tolerance (try suing Golden Bear or Wolf), so focus on quality and meeting specific needs.

March 22, 2009, 12:31 AM	#1
RamSlammer Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Arkansas Posts: 722	Ammo Load Mark X Anyone here have first hand experience running one of these? It's a commercial 3,000 round per hour fully automated loading machine. I may can pick up a used version dirt cheap and was wondering if it's outside the scope of an individual reloader to manage. I load about 800 rounds of pistol ammo a month and with this thing that could be a 20 minute proposition.

April 16, 2009, 09:30 PM	#2
PackerFan67 Junior Member Join Date: April 16, 2009 Location: Mankato MN Posts: 1	Reload machine I know this is a very late reply but... These are good machines. Just like any machine they need preventive maintenance and such. IF the machine is in good working order it a good price. Since you don't have a staff you would spend some time preparing the primer tubes, unless you got some equipment to speed that up. The actual machine will just need you to load brass, bullets, primers and powered. As long as you treat it right you can produce 1000s of rounds per hour.

April 16, 2009, 09:45 PM	#4
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...wondering if it's outside the scope of an individual reloader to manage..." Yep. That machine isn't likely to run on regular house electric supply either. "...can pick up a used version dirt cheap..." Probably with no tooling. For 800 rounds a month, a Dillon 550 machine will do. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

April 16, 2009, 09:52 PM	#5
webby4x4 Member Join Date: April 7, 2009 Location: North Dallas, TX Posts: 92	No experience with a machine like that, but something else to consider: If this machine requires 3-phase 220V power, check with your local ordinance first. Many codes won't allow 3-phase 220V at the home - at least the last 2 places that I lived won't, which was a problem for an industrial air compressor that I picked up for free. Ultimately I had to sell it. __________________ ____________________________________________ Rick Webster www.4x4review.com

April 16, 2009, 10:53 PM	#6
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	And just how damn much cash are you talking to get a hold of something like that... used even? That's nuts. For personal use, that's just plain nuts. If you get one of those, you need to get your type 6 FFL (or whichever type it is) and go in to commercial ammo production. I agree with the others... where the heck are you going to get brass by the truckload, bullets by the shipload and powder 800 pounds at a time? Hell, we can't even get a brick of primers, and you want to run THAT monster! Good luck! Still, I'd like to hear what the price is on that, used. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

April 16, 2009, 09:43 PM	#3
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	Very nice machines. If you can pick one up at a good price, I'd go for it. Your only concern will be it's appetite. I don't see how one could keep up with it's eating habits in today's component shortage.

April 17, 2009, 12:59 AM	#7
RamSlammer Senior Member Join Date: November 5, 2008 Location: Arkansas Posts: 722	Well, I determined (as you guys did also) that this was nuts for an individual to manage. Of course, now may be a profitable time to get into the ammo business for someone who can raise enough capital and negotiate supplier deals on components. Price was low 5 figures with other stuff included, but needed some rehab which would be expensive. It is an incredible, amazing machine however.

April 17, 2009, 10:00 AM	#8
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	There is a poster on here named Freakshow10mm who has the FFL type "?" (I think it's type 6 or type 7) that is the Fed license to manufacture and sell ammunition. I'm not sure he ever actually went that route and is in the business of making and selling ammo, but he could give you the background on what it takes to produce ammo for sale. I hate to be a pessimist (I call it being a realist) but right now, large retail outlets are having a very difficult time getting a hold of the components that make even slow reloading machines run. You would have to find a way to get primers (which nobody can get) and bullets (which are running long order fulfillment times) and brass (which you'd have to get in a large lot from a manufacturer) and you'd also have to get the FFL and you'd certainly have to look in to the insurance and liability concerns that go along with producing ammo. Possible? Of course! Business feeds the American dream. But this is a much bigger ball of wax than finding a hardcore piece of machinery and getting it running. Even so, I find the entire topic quite interesting and I'm enjoying this thread. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

April 21, 2009, 08:43 PM	#9
jcims Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2005 Location: Ahyah Posts: 290	I've been wondering about this myself recently. I wonder if you could start a little non-profit association between 5-10 folks and make it worth dropping coin on something like this. The ability for these systems to churn out 30-50K rounds over a weekend, with a few folks prepping, checking, packing, labeling, etc, seems like it could have real potential. The FFL license would presumably go to the association, and someone would have to handle the bookkeeping, but i can't imagine it would be a huge deal. I shot a note to the Ammoload (Mark X) and Camdex folks asking for pricing/availability...will follow up with their response. Used market would vary widely of course. Edit: Here's an expired Camdex auction on ebay for $20K (in Ohio even) http://cgi.ebay.com/CAMDEX-45-cal.-2...QQcmdZViewItem

April 22, 2009, 08:35 AM	#10
jcims Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2005 Location: Ahyah Posts: 290	Camdex got right back to me (I submitted a request via their web site). The 2100 handles pistol calibers, runs ~$30K and $4500 for each additional caliber. Case processor is $17K and there is a packer for $10K. The 2200 handles rifle calibers, startup costs there are going to be closer to $100K total between loader, case processor, trimmer, etc. So for less than $200K you could have the capacity to churn out ~100K rounds per day ('supplies permitting' the obvious caveat). There is much much more to running a successful ammo company, but I have to say that the math isn't bad.

April 22, 2009, 09:06 AM	#11
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	Yes, I make ammo commercially. I had an 06 FFL, which is the ammo maker's FFL but deactivated it when I got my 07 FFL (gun maker) last summer. With the 07 FFL I can do everything an 01 and 06 FFL does in addition to manufacturing firearms and is a prerequisite for being a Class 2 NFA manufacturer, which I also do. I mainly sell locally but am beginning to start selling on my website again. I have a few loads listed in 9mm, 10mm, and .223 for now. I hope to add .45 Auto and maybe .41 Magnum later by early summer. I also offer seasonal hunting ammunition geared toward youth and recoil sensitive shooters. They offer all the killing power of the headstamp cartridge, the .270, 308, and 30-06, but with recoil dead even with the .243 Win. High performance low recoil. These will be available on my site in the summer as well. I need to load up a good stock first. Money is out there in the ammo business. Marketing is the hardest part. You will not be able to compete with the big boys, so don't try. If you price lower, you will not make money. You have to do something that they don't. Full power 10mm. Variety of .41 Mag loads. Standard loads in stock.

April 22, 2009, 09:52 PM	#13
jcims Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2005 Location: Ahyah Posts: 290	Ammo Load got back to me mid morning (not bad response time from either company). The Mark X is for pistol cartridges, available today for a base price that is on par with the Camdex 2100. They are going to be releasing the Mark L in May, which will reload rifle cartrdges. This will run for a little less than what the Camdex 2200 is running (~$50K). I don't want to post the exact numbers, if you are interested you can contact the manufacturers here: AmmoLoad, Camdex. If anyone knows of other manufacturers, feel free to post away. :P Obviously freakshow10mm knows what he's talking about, and what he's saying makes a lot of sense. Build yourself a niche and don't try to win on price...you aren't going to be able to compete with offshore folks on labor costs or risk tolerance (try suing Golden Bear or Wolf), so focus on quality and meeting specific needs.