should i trade in my 12 ga. and get a .410 for hd?

cajun47 · March 16, 2012, 08:16 PM

12 ga 3" mag:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNBFS...0DMNmo_tnF6Z9o

.410:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ

the .410 has much better penetration, less recoil, less flash. im shocked by that .410 video.

the rifleer · March 16, 2012, 08:18 PM

Let me just put it this way… no.

SHR970 · March 16, 2012, 09:11 PM

Why?????

The 12 is a time proven stopper. It was proven on the battlefields of WWI and proved itself again in Nam.

The 410 is generally underrated, but the 12 is universally feared for a reason.

If you can handle the 12 competently, keep it. Then again, adding a 410 to your battery to help make you a better shot is a good enough reason to get one. Just don't be rid of your 12 just because.

My $.05 worth; and I have 12's, 20's and 410's in my battery.

langenc · March 16, 2012, 09:19 PM

No-trade the 12 for a 20.

oneounceload · March 16, 2012, 09:21 PM

If it makes you feel more comfortable and confident than using a 12, go ahead.........is it the wisest thing you could ever do? Most likely not

zippy13 · March 16, 2012, 09:48 PM

One test was done with OO-Buck (0.33" Dia.) and the other with OOO-Buck (0.36" Dia.). We have no idea about the relative sizes (nor densities) of the gelatin blocks nor the distance from the muzzle. If you base your HD selections on what you see on youtube; then, by all means, swap your 12-ga for a .410-bore.

Hansam · March 16, 2012, 11:11 PM

Simply put: NO.

Dave McC · March 17, 2012, 09:24 AM

Maybe, maybe not.

And 3" is not the only option in 12 gauge. My HD shotguns are 12 gauge 870s and they're loaded with 2 3/4" loads. More than adequate.

And do not make your choice using youtube vids. Base it on actual in your hands experience.

I do consider a 410 viable for HD, especially in the hands of elderly or physically limited people, but it's certainly not the One Size Fits All optimum choice.

And, since expertise depends on use, there's so much more that can be done with a 12.

The common mistake made is to buy a weapon, load it up, maybe shoot a few rounds, maybe not, and then stow it while thinking one is prepared for a crisis.

This bothers me even more than PGO shotguns, the job market, or the current mess in the government.

One needs to gain proficiency with one's weapon(s) before one can be ready to protect themselves, their families and communities. That takes a round count.

Skeet with a 410 could work. Hunting rabbits and squirrels with the lilliputian bore is fun, but not enough rounds get fired to move up the learning curve much.

And unless you reload, 410s run a couple dollars a box more than the bigger but more used 12 gauge.

Clay games can certainly up that round count. And if one can smash 2 4" discs moving on different vectors in a short time frame time after time, larger, slower,closer targets present little difficulty.

If circumstances require operating outside the house, like many citizens have done during things like NOLA during Katrina, the 12 has the advantage there.

So, try different things and make your choice based on what works best for you....

cajun47 · March 17, 2012, 09:35 AM

trading in my 12 ga is more of a joke. but that video of the .410 blew my mind. how can it penetrate way better than a 12 ga. 3" mag???????

i been looking for a hd weapon for several women i know. young and old. none of them like guns. they won't practice much and won't tolerate high recoil.

does mossberg make a .410 pump with more than 3 shots of 3" shells?

anyone have opinions on the rossi .410 revolver carbine/shotgun? this seems like it would be easier to operate. but is it good/reliable?

SHR970 · March 17, 2012, 11:07 AM

Quote:

does mossberg make a .410 pump with more than 3 shots of 3" shells?

Model 500; holds 5 3" (4+1) just pull the plug out of the magazine.

Models 505 and 510 have lesser capacities.

scottycoyote · March 17, 2012, 01:02 PM

yeah they dont give you the gelatin density on the 410 test, also one is 00 and one is 000, thats an oranges and apples comparison. The 00 buckshot is larger and is going to transfer more energy and shock to the target. Also if you think about shooting in your home, you really want less penetration (so it doesnt go thru a wall and hit something/someone else, so this just makes the 12 more desireable in my book.

Old Grump · March 17, 2012, 02:03 PM

If it is noise and recoil that is a consideration go to 2 3/4" shells or even the mini shells at 1 1/2" for the 12 gauge and the extra payload. Much as I like the .410 I would put my safety in the hands of a 20 or a 12 gauge first if they were available.

landlord · March 17, 2012, 02:14 PM

I have had the same thought of a 410 for hd, then I found some 2" buckshot for my 12. they will be in monday so I'll know then if they are any good. will post my thoughts.

zippy13 · March 17, 2012, 02:40 PM

Quote:

If circumstances require operating outside the house, like many citizens have done during things like NOLA during Katrina, the 12 has the advantage there.

Thanks, Dave, that's a point seldom pondered, but surely significant.

TXAZ · March 17, 2012, 03:08 PM

No contest. If the goal is to stop a close-in threat at home, keep the 12, use a 2 3/4 if a 3" is too much recoil for you, and #8 shot for HD: At close ranges the tight group of birdshot will stop similar to a slug but tends not to penetrate multiple walls.

Conversely if the threat is real, and you are in fear of your life and the first shot has to be good, the recoil of a .410 / 20 ga /12 ga (or even a .50 BMG) shouldn't matter, and probably won't matter if your adrenalin is pumping.

TheKlawMan · March 17, 2012, 07:43 PM

This is too fancy for a simple guy like me to understand. I don't get why the test of 5 pellet .410 000 BS appears to show 7 pellets. Perhaps two are a globs of ballistic gelatin. Asuming both ballistic blocks are the same material and density, it doesn't say that both are fired from the same gun at the same distances. FPS at impact is given for the .410 but not the 12.

SHR970 · March 17, 2012, 10:08 PM

Over powder and cushioning wads.

Irish B · March 18, 2012, 12:21 PM

That's like saying should I trade in my .416 Rigby for a .243 for lion hunting? If the kick is too much get a bigger butt pad!

sabo954 · March 19, 2012, 12:48 AM

Quote:

If it is noise and recoil that is a consideration go to 2 3/4" shells or even the mini shells at 1 1/2" for the 12 gauge and the extra payload. Much as I like the .410 I would put my safety in the hands of a 20 or a 12 gauge first if they were available.

The 12 ga. provides you with the absolute widest load versatility, possibly of any weapon system EVER. And history will show that the one with the most options usually wins...

But really, there's a barrel and load for almost every application in 12 ga. Granted, it may not be the BEST weapon for any one scenario, you can't beat it's general effectiveness across every scenario, long range excepted. When you've got every option from low-power less-than-lethal rounds to magnum discarding sabot, and all manner of shot and slug in between from 1 1/2" to 3 1/2", what can't you do?

teeroux · March 19, 2012, 12:58 AM

Quote:

the .410 has much better penetration, less recoil, less flash. im shocked by that .410 video.

There was a shorter block of gel on the .410 video. The 12ga vids gel block is 10 black spacers long the .410 gel block is shorter than 6.

12ga had much more penetration.

Kal52 · March 21, 2012, 12:37 AM

watch the vids again, while the .410 didnt look bad at all...im not a scientist like batman, but id say the wound channel and shock from the 12 was just a tad over "WAY MO BETTER"

I dont think the 410 is a terrible option, but i wouldnt trade my 12 for one.
If all I had was a 410 I dont think id feel unarmed or defensless tho, I love my 410s to a fault, but I think getting more lead on target is a biggie here.

Good luck

March 16, 2012, 08:16 PM	#1
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	should i trade in my 12 ga. and get a .410 for hd? 12 ga 3" mag: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNBFS...0DMNmo_tnF6Z9o .410: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1wMmx2fUVQ the .410 has much better penetration, less recoil, less flash. im shocked by that .410 video.

March 16, 2012, 08:18 PM	#2
the rifleer Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2008 Location: Sunny California Posts: 1,281	Let me just put it this way… no. __________________ There is no such thing as a stupid question, only stupid people.

March 16, 2012, 09:48 PM	#6
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	One test was done with OO-Buck (0.33" Dia.) and the other with OOO-Buck (0.36" Dia.). We have no idea about the relative sizes (nor densities) of the gelatin blocks nor the distance from the muzzle. If you base your HD selections on what you see on youtube; then, by all means, swap your 12-ga for a .410-bore. Last edited by zippy13; March 16, 2012 at 10:00 PM. Reason: typo

March 16, 2012, 11:11 PM	#7
Hansam Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2012 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 763	Simply put: NO. __________________ This is who we are, what we do.

March 17, 2012, 01:02 PM	#11
scottycoyote Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2005 Location: southwestern va Posts: 830	yeah they dont give you the gelatin density on the 410 test, also one is 00 and one is 000, thats an oranges and apples comparison. The 00 buckshot is larger and is going to transfer more energy and shock to the target. Also if you think about shooting in your home, you really want less penetration (so it doesnt go thru a wall and hit something/someone else, so this just makes the 12 more desireable in my book. __________________ "i got the most powerful gun in the world........an .88 magnum. It shoots thru schools......"

March 16, 2012, 09:11 PM	#3
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Why????? The 12 is a time proven stopper. It was proven on the battlefields of WWI and proved itself again in Nam. The 410 is generally underrated, but the 12 is universally feared for a reason. If you can handle the 12 competently, keep it. Then again, adding a 410 to your battery to help make you a better shot is a good enough reason to get one. Just don't be rid of your 12 just because. My $.05 worth; and I have 12's, 20's and 410's in my battery.

March 16, 2012, 09:19 PM	#4
langenc Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2007 Location: Montmorency Co, MI Posts: 1,551	No-trade the 12 for a 20.

March 16, 2012, 09:21 PM	#5
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	If it makes you feel more comfortable and confident than using a 12, go ahead.........is it the wisest thing you could ever do? Most likely not

March 17, 2012, 09:24 AM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Maybe, maybe not. And 3" is not the only option in 12 gauge. My HD shotguns are 12 gauge 870s and they're loaded with 2 3/4" loads. More than adequate. And do not make your choice using youtube vids. Base it on actual in your hands experience. I do consider a 410 viable for HD, especially in the hands of elderly or physically limited people, but it's certainly not the One Size Fits All optimum choice. And, since expertise depends on use, there's so much more that can be done with a 12. The common mistake made is to buy a weapon, load it up, maybe shoot a few rounds, maybe not, and then stow it while thinking one is prepared for a crisis. This bothers me even more than PGO shotguns, the job market, or the current mess in the government. One needs to gain proficiency with one's weapon(s) before one can be ready to protect themselves, their families and communities. That takes a round count. Skeet with a 410 could work. Hunting rabbits and squirrels with the lilliputian bore is fun, but not enough rounds get fired to move up the learning curve much. And unless you reload, 410s run a couple dollars a box more than the bigger but more used 12 gauge. Clay games can certainly up that round count. And if one can smash 2 4" discs moving on different vectors in a short time frame time after time, larger, slower,closer targets present little difficulty. If circumstances require operating outside the house, like many citizens have done during things like NOLA during Katrina, the 12 has the advantage there. So, try different things and make your choice based on what works best for you....

March 17, 2012, 09:35 AM	#9
cajun47 Senior Member Join Date: May 28, 2007 Location: swamp people Posts: 539	trading in my 12 ga is more of a joke. but that video of the .410 blew my mind. how can it penetrate way better than a 12 ga. 3" mag??????? i been looking for a hd weapon for several women i know. young and old. none of them like guns. they won't practice much and won't tolerate high recoil. does mossberg make a .410 pump with more than 3 shots of 3" shells? anyone have opinions on the rossi .410 revolver carbine/shotgun? this seems like it would be easier to operate. but is it good/reliable?

March 17, 2012, 02:03 PM	#12
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	If it is noise and recoil that is a consideration go to 2 3/4" shells or even the mini shells at 1 1/2" for the 12 gauge and the extra payload. Much as I like the .410 I would put my safety in the hands of a 20 or a 12 gauge first if they were available. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

March 17, 2012, 02:14 PM	#13
landlord Member Join Date: February 4, 2012 Posts: 71	I have had the same thought of a 410 for hd, then I found some 2" buckshot for my 12. they will be in monday so I'll know then if they are any good. will post my thoughts.

March 17, 2012, 03:08 PM	#15
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	No contest. If the goal is to stop a close-in threat at home, keep the 12, use a 2 3/4 if a 3" is too much recoil for you, and #8 shot for HD: At close ranges the tight group of birdshot will stop similar to a slug but tends not to penetrate multiple walls. Conversely if the threat is real, and you are in fear of your life and the first shot has to be good, the recoil of a .410 / 20 ga /12 ga (or even a .50 BMG) shouldn't matter, and probably won't matter if your adrenalin is pumping. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

March 17, 2012, 07:43 PM	#16
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	This is too fancy for a simple guy like me to understand. I don't get why the test of 5 pellet .410 000 BS appears to show 7 pellets. Perhaps two are a globs of ballistic gelatin. Asuming both ballistic blocks are the same material and density, it doesn't say that both are fired from the same gun at the same distances. FPS at impact is given for the .410 but not the 12.

March 17, 2012, 10:08 PM	#17
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	Over powder and cushioning wads.

March 18, 2012, 12:21 PM	#18
Irish B Senior Member Join Date: October 10, 2010 Location: Colorado Posts: 359	That's like saying should I trade in my .416 Rigby for a .243 for lion hunting? If the kick is too much get a bigger butt pad! __________________ If a man hasn't found something worth dying for, he isn't fit to live

March 21, 2012, 12:37 AM	#21
Kal52 Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Posts: 21	watch the vids again, while the .410 didnt look bad at all...im not a scientist like batman, but id say the wound channel and shock from the 12 was just a tad over "WAY MO BETTER" I dont think the 410 is a terrible option, but i wouldnt trade my 12 for one. If all I had was a 410 I dont think id feel unarmed or defensless tho, I love my 410s to a fault, but I think getting more lead on target is a biggie here. Good luck