The musket that won the revolution. Happy 4th

Buzzcook · July 4, 2015, 03:14 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charleville_musket

While several countries aided the American colonies against the British Empire, it was the French that sent the most material aid. Much of that aid was in the form of the Charleville M 1763 and other variants.

Quote:

the use of the name Charleville dates back to the U.S. Revolutionary War, when Americans tended to refer to all of the musket models as Charlevilles. It should be noted that the naming of these muskets is not consistent. Some references only refer to Model 1763 and later versions as Charleville flint lock muskets, while other references refer to all models as the Charleville.

The story of Adams and Franklin getting a military alliance with France is fully as important as Washington's role in the field.
It can also be argued that the monies spent by the French government led to the economic crisis that started the French revolution.

at any rate when you think of our revolution today, remember the Charleville.

DaleA · July 4, 2015, 04:04 PM

Anybody that thinks politics was easier and more simple back then should consider this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War

Just about 20 years after we won our independence from England, with lots of help from the French, the French staged their own revolution and in 1800 we durn near were at war with the new government of France and were getting friendly with England. Who'd of thunk it? And then of course in 1812 we actually did go to war with England again.

Guess the WWII politics where during the war we were friends with China and Russia against Germany and Japan and then in the '50's we were friends with Japan and West Germany and our enemies were Russia and China had some kind of precedence.

P.S. I'm no history student...if I was I bet this stuff wouldn't surprise me so much.

Jim Watson · July 4, 2015, 05:06 PM

Nations don't have "friends." They have allies of the moment.

g.willikers · July 5, 2015, 10:04 AM

Did anyone back then cut their extra long muskets down to a handier size?
Guerrilla units maybe?

kilimanjaro · July 5, 2015, 10:29 AM

You needed that long barrel for accuracy. These were 100 yard weapons, beyond that, a hit was chance, not intent.

Cavalry units used short Musketoons, and long-barreled pistols.

For close work, the bayonet, pistol, and sword were used. The musket was a stand-off weapon that would get you close enough for the bayonet to be of use. A pistol was a one-shot deal, unless you carried two or three of them, you'd better be up to snuff on your sword work.

DaleA · July 5, 2015, 10:57 AM

Pistols-I remember one of the later 'Hornblower' books when he had married into money that his wife got him a set of double barrel rifled pistols. I believe they were 'over/under' style.

It was kind of fun because there was no 'owners manual' and Hornblower had to figure out how they worked on his own.

Turns out they were percussion pistols and he thought the percussion feature would be way more important to him than the rifled feature.

His thinking was that his percussion pistols would be much more water resistant than the flintlocks and that most of the time he wouldn't be more than a few yards from his target and wouldn't need the accuracy the rifling provided.

Hornblower was set in the early 1800's.

Jim Watson · July 5, 2015, 10:58 AM

Certainly no formed unit would allow troops to mutilate their weapons and reduce the effectiveness of the bayonet. If your CO wanted you to have a shorter gun, you would be issued a musketoon.

No telling what guerillas might do.
Or settlers buying surplus military muskets. There are a lot of those, cut down into handier fowling pieces.

johnwilliamson062 · July 5, 2015, 02:51 PM

Poor quality black powder(compared to modern offering). You need that barrel length to get velocity up.

And to use it as a pike.

Buzzcook · July 5, 2015, 03:47 PM

At the start of the revolution the Continentals had whatever weapons they could scrape together. A large portion would be Brown Bess Muskets "Long Land Pattern". Probably left overs from the 7 years war and militia weapons provided by the British for Indian wars.
But certainly there would be musketoons and fowling pieces. I couldn't google up a good web site to show the variety of weapons used. Most just mention issued muskets.

g.willikers · July 5, 2015, 05:44 PM

A web search quickly turned up info for the Charleville Carbine, a substantially shorter weapon than the musket.
It might not have been available during the Revolution, though.
How did we ever live without the web?

kilimanjaro · July 5, 2015, 09:50 PM

We bought and read books, purely Cenezoic behavior.

Homes with books in them seem to harder to find than homes with guns, anymore.

Buzzcook · July 6, 2015, 12:36 AM

I had to refresh my memory on the history of the Franco/American alliance.

France gave about 13 billion dollars in aid to the colonies and that aid started when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

A secret corporation was formed to transfer supplies to the colonies in July 1776.
Roderigue Hortalez and Company
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderi...ez_and_Company
That's 2 years before the official military alliance.

It seems I've forgotten more than I learned about the alliance.

Anyway Hortalez might be a good start to find if carbine/dragoon versions of the Charleville were shipped to the rebels.

DaleA · July 6, 2015, 06:15 PM

Buzzcook - Did not know France was covertly helping us out before the Declaration of Independence.

Thanks for the link.

Those guys were as secretive and devious as anything going on today. Guess human nature doesn't change.

TimSr · July 7, 2015, 07:19 AM

Speaking of our history with and against France, we can also remember the French and Indian War in which the American colonists were considered Brittish enemies for the French.

g.willikers · July 7, 2015, 09:14 AM

If the French aristocrats had any notion of what our successful revolution might mean to them, they no doubt wouldn't have helped or assisted in any way.
They might have joined the British against us.
Good thing for us they were so short sighted.

SIGSHR · July 7, 2015, 02:59 PM

Most of our long arms up to the Trapdoor Springfield were inspired by the Charleville. The one pictured has the bayonet log on the bottom.

Blue Grass · July 21, 2015, 03:12 PM

Even without a bayonet it still makes a dandy club, as does the Brown Bess.

The period between the French and Indian War and the America Revolution was similar to the time between WWI and WWII. Britain and France were fighting a war for global domination in places like India, the Middle East, North America, and the Caribean.

Buzzcook · July 23, 2015, 02:22 AM

The Seven Years War is considered by some as the first world war because it was fought in every hemisphere. The North American campaigns were relatively small potatoes. The Caribbean was much more valuable than Canada or the British colonies.

July 5, 2015, 10:04 AM	#4
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	Did anyone back then cut their extra long muskets down to a handier size? Guerrilla units maybe? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 5, 2015, 05:44 PM	#10
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	A web search quickly turned up info for the Charleville Carbine, a substantially shorter weapon than the musket. It might not have been available during the Revolution, though. How did we ever live without the web? __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 7, 2015, 09:14 AM	#15
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	If the French aristocrats had any notion of what our successful revolution might mean to them, they no doubt wouldn't have helped or assisted in any way. They might have joined the British against us. Good thing for us they were so short sighted. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”

July 4, 2015, 04:04 PM	#2
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Anybody that thinks politics was easier and more simple back then should consider this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quasi-War Just about 20 years after we won our independence from England, with lots of help from the French, the French staged their own revolution and in 1800 we durn near were at war with the new government of France and were getting friendly with England. Who'd of thunk it? And then of course in 1812 we actually did go to war with England again. Guess the WWII politics where during the war we were friends with China and Russia against Germany and Japan and then in the '50's we were friends with Japan and West Germany and our enemies were Russia and China had some kind of precedence. P.S. I'm no history student...if I was I bet this stuff wouldn't surprise me so much.

July 4, 2015, 05:06 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Nations don't have "friends." They have allies of the moment.

July 5, 2015, 10:29 AM	#5
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	You needed that long barrel for accuracy. These were 100 yard weapons, beyond that, a hit was chance, not intent. Cavalry units used short Musketoons, and long-barreled pistols. For close work, the bayonet, pistol, and sword were used. The musket was a stand-off weapon that would get you close enough for the bayonet to be of use. A pistol was a one-shot deal, unless you carried two or three of them, you'd better be up to snuff on your sword work.

July 5, 2015, 10:57 AM	#6
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Pistols-I remember one of the later 'Hornblower' books when he had married into money that his wife got him a set of double barrel rifled pistols. I believe they were 'over/under' style. It was kind of fun because there was no 'owners manual' and Hornblower had to figure out how they worked on his own. Turns out they were percussion pistols and he thought the percussion feature would be way more important to him than the rifled feature. His thinking was that his percussion pistols would be much more water resistant than the flintlocks and that most of the time he wouldn't be more than a few yards from his target and wouldn't need the accuracy the rifling provided. Hornblower was set in the early 1800's.

July 5, 2015, 10:58 AM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,542	Certainly no formed unit would allow troops to mutilate their weapons and reduce the effectiveness of the bayonet. If your CO wanted you to have a shorter gun, you would be issued a musketoon. No telling what guerillas might do. Or settlers buying surplus military muskets. There are a lot of those, cut down into handier fowling pieces.

July 5, 2015, 02:51 PM	#8
johnwilliamson062 Junior member Join Date: May 16, 2008 Posts: 9,995	Poor quality black powder(compared to modern offering). You need that barrel length to get velocity up. And to use it as a pike.

July 5, 2015, 03:47 PM	#9
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	At the start of the revolution the Continentals had whatever weapons they could scrape together. A large portion would be Brown Bess Muskets "Long Land Pattern". Probably left overs from the 7 years war and militia weapons provided by the British for Indian wars. But certainly there would be musketoons and fowling pieces. I couldn't google up a good web site to show the variety of weapons used. Most just mention issued muskets.

July 5, 2015, 09:50 PM	#11
kilimanjaro Senior Member Join Date: November 23, 2009 Posts: 3,963	We bought and read books, purely Cenezoic behavior. Homes with books in them seem to harder to find than homes with guns, anymore.

July 6, 2015, 12:36 AM	#12
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	I had to refresh my memory on the history of the Franco/American alliance. France gave about 13 billion dollars in aid to the colonies and that aid started when the Declaration of Independence was signed. A secret corporation was formed to transfer supplies to the colonies in July 1776. Roderigue Hortalez and Company https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roderi...ez_and_Company That's 2 years before the official military alliance. It seems I've forgotten more than I learned about the alliance. Anyway Hortalez might be a good start to find if carbine/dragoon versions of the Charleville were shipped to the rebels.

July 6, 2015, 06:15 PM	#13
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	Buzzcook - Did not know France was covertly helping us out before the Declaration of Independence. Thanks for the link. Those guys were as secretive and devious as anything going on today. Guess human nature doesn't change.

July 7, 2015, 07:19 AM	#14
TimSr Senior Member Join Date: March 8, 2013 Location: Rittman, Ohio Posts: 2,074	Speaking of our history with and against France, we can also remember the French and Indian War in which the American colonists were considered Brittish enemies for the French.

July 7, 2015, 02:59 PM	#16
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	Most of our long arms up to the Trapdoor Springfield were inspired by the Charleville. The one pictured has the bayonet log on the bottom.

July 21, 2015, 03:12 PM	#17
Blue Grass Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2009 Posts: 398	Even without a bayonet it still makes a dandy club, as does the Brown Bess. The period between the French and Indian War and the America Revolution was similar to the time between WWI and WWII. Britain and France were fighting a war for global domination in places like India, the Middle East, North America, and the Caribean.

July 23, 2015, 02:22 AM	#18
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	The Seven Years War is considered by some as the first world war because it was fought in every hemisphere. The North American campaigns were relatively small potatoes. The Caribbean was much more valuable than Canada or the British colonies.