Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

[artsmom]

taralon, bear baiting is more work than you probably think. You don't just throw out a half dozen day old donuts on your way to the stand and then take your pick of the bears.

As I understand it, bait has to be put out long before the season, and constantly refreshed. (Carrying the bait out to an area that has heavy bear traffic could be slightly exhilirating in itself.) If you put out a half dozen bait stations, you have given yourself an 84% chance the biggest bear will be somewhere else, and if the other hunters in the area each put out six stations, well, you get the point.

I camped for years in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, and I don't know how I would even begin to still hunt them in that area. I am sure it is possible, but it would be MUCH harder (by a factor of ten, maybe?) than collecting a deer in the same way. I would say the chances of wounding a black bear in a snap shot would be great, as bears seem (from the ones in the wild I have saw) don't advertise a classic aiming point such as the front leg of a deer. Sometimes it is even hard to tell which end is which, especially in lowlight conditions. They look like black blobs, and of course, to we paranoid campers, all black blobs look like bears:-)

[butch50]

As far as hunting bear over bait, I don't have an opinion. Believe it or not, and most won't , I try not to have opinions on things that I don't know anything about. Bear hunting just isn't a very productive sport here in Texas . I leave that discussion to those of you who are knowledgeable.

[MeekAndMild]

But that isn't what we were talking about and I think the spearchucker didn't read through the posts

That is called reduction ad absurdum, dewd.

But I do agree with you that the fences are the problem and not the bait, for reasons I've already explained...if you read the posts.

[butch50]

Next logical question is whether it is ethical to use an atlatl when spear hunting for deer.

MeekandMild - I am always willing to learn: Please explain what reduction ad absurdum means; and how it does not apply to the comment about using spears and atlatls?

I am glad you are against fences , it is a good start.

[impact]

Butch what did you just say! "I am always willing to learn" I have a lease in Crockett and come deer season I'm going to plant your unhappy ass in a stand near a fedder. Then I will go to the woods and hunt and we will see who gets a nice buck first. I will bet if you are lucky you may see a small doe and if you are real lucky you will see a spike buck. Thats just the way it is most of the time hunting around here in east Texas and I told you why! I guess you forgot

I don't have a problem with a large fenced in lease where ranch hands grow big bucks. Remember there are deer on the other side of the fence as well and god knows how much money these people spent to grow nice bucks. This is a free country and if they want to do it thats fine with me. Also I think in Texas if a ranch has exotics you by law have to have a high fence.

Also I don't where some people get the idea you need to spend thousands for a lease? My first lease was in La Grange and only cost me $250 a year. The one I now have in crockett is $500 a year and is a nice place with a house. I just don't have servents taking care of my every need.

Oh yes! I also forgot to mention that my feeders not only feed rabbits, coons, crows and squirrels! They also feed birds. That is if you like to bird watch

[butch50]

I have a lease in Crockett and come deer season I'm going to plant your unhappy ass in a stand near a fedder. Then I will go to the woods and hunt and we will see who gets a nice buck first. I will bet if you are lucky you may see a small doe and if you are real lucky you will see a spike buck

Shoot Impact, if if doesn't work why do you bother? I used to hunt East Texas a lot, back about 20 years ago, and in the piney woods the deer feeders never did seem to work the way they do in the hard timber and scrub timber and scrub country of Central and West and South Texas. I don't know why but no one really had a lot of luck with them, I know your theory, my theory is just that a theory but I think it could be because the deer density isn't very high (compared to the other areas mentioned) but the food density is very high. I couldn't tell you about North Texas, have no idea if they work up there or not. Back in the day though there weren't any high fences anywhere and there weren't a lot of mechanical feeders either.

Quite the contrary my derierre is a very happy one! I would much rather wander the woods still hunting than sitting on a feeder anyway. Just don't tell me you are shootin rabbits off of a feeder please - I couldn't take it! I would rather wander the woods and not get a deer at all as to sit in a chair all day and get one. But hey, that's just me - I enjoy the process far more than the result.

Oh, and don't get me started on "Exotic Game Ranches" :barf:

[impact]

Most of the time when deer come to a feeder it's at night. I have seen deer tracks that went right next to a feeder and the deer never even stopped to eat. But sometimes they do. mostly it's younger deer and at the end of the year. I have never seen a big buck come to a feeder to eat! The only way a feeder might work and why I set one up is that a nice buck might come check out a doe if there is a doe at the feeder. As you can see here there are alot of ifs. What I can't stand is that new guy that never hunted before in his life. goes out to a stand lites a cigarette and see a nice 10 point and makes a good clean shot and kills a deer. Then says that was easy! I don't smoke and never have that kind of luck

I love to be out in the woods! in a stand or not.

[butch50]

I have seen 20 to 30 deer come to a feeder before, over near Lampassas on a lease my Uncle had and invited me to when I was 17 (1970) - no high fences though. But, like I said East Texas is a whole nother place. I had a lease over near Woodville, way back in the pines back in the late 80s. We had deer, hogs and even a wolf that we saw a couple of times. Deer were there but they were scarce during the day, lots of tracks, so looked to be moving mostly at night. We bow hunted and didn't "improve" the lease by building stands or feeders or a shack or anything. Just camped out and had a blast....Course I was a lot younger then and didn't mind sleeping on the ground at all. Now if I have to camp out I like a nice air mattress....Eventually we gave it up because the fire ants got so bad that you couldn't hardly walk around them.

[Art Eatman]

butch, listen up a minute: Those high fences AREN'T to keep deer in; they're to keep deer OUT!

Take a several-thousand-acre pasture. Reduce the amount of phreatophytes--not free. Improve water supplies--not free. Plant native vegetation, with some fertilizer as per the USDA--not free.

You've created a truly nice wildlife habitat. Deer from other ranches would dearly love to enjoy this smorgasbord. Next? Over-population with habitat destruction.

You've spent all this money. You've done the paperwork with TP&WD to reduce the herd to the carrying capacity of the land. You've achieved a proper buck-doe ratio.

Do you really want to, essentially, start over? Duh?

You build high fences--not cheap.

So, you charge high prices for the privilege of trespassing.

Now, back to the issue of how the hunting is done: Isn't that up to the hunter and the land-owner? Some folks need to pick a spot and sit; sometimes a tree-stand lets you watch probable territory that's not possible from the ground. Others like to walk/stalk and hunt that way, which is my preference.

In the brasada are many ranches where you either ride in a high-seat vehicle or sit in a stand--or you physically cannot see deer. The brush is just way too high and thick. I've hunted the 3,000-acre East Pasture of the Vanham Ranch, north of Uvalde. My father described it the best: "You walk and walk until you get somewhere, and when you get there, you aren't anywhere." It's very gently rolling country with too much mesquite. But, you climb a windmill tower, or sit up on top of "something"--maybe a truck--and you have a chance of catching something besides a cold.

Your views and mine don't really matter, anyway. In many parts of Texas there are just way too many deer for the habitat. Instead of bucks dressing out at a common weight above 125 pounds, they'll run 70 to 90. The CenTex deer herd was dramatically reduced in body size from 1960 onward, due to too many deer for the habitat. (A large part of it was the reduction in hunting via ranch breakup upon inheritance. The heirs sold to non- or anti-hunters...) Build more stands, kill more deer, let the other deer migrate off the over-browsed land of the non-hunters. I'm more concerned--in this sort of situation--about the health of the herd and much less about the how-to of the hunter.

Again, many people do not have any possible way to back up 30 years and grow up in the country. There is little they can do beyond read Field & Stream et al to learn anything about deer hunting. They do the best they can with what they have. And have time for. Some fortunate few are able to progress to the sort of true "serious hunting" that you and I prefer.

Regardless, even if some dude, Mr. Billfold, sleeps in a luxury suite and is driven to a stand to shoot some deer near a feeder, he's still doing a lot better than watching the Outdoor Channel and never leaving home. There's always a chance for the upslope of the learning curve.

Art

[butch50]

butch, listen up a minute: Those high fences AREN'T to keep deer in; they're to keep deer OUT!

Art Eatman:

In the end you are correct, the fences are to keep deer out. BUT they start off with a herd of deer that are public property, and to my knowledge they don't pay the State a dime for those deer. Some states allow high fencing, but they also make the landowner pay for the deer that are trapped on the property by the fence. Plus, the progeny of those trapped deer are the progeny of public property and since their parents weren't paid for neither are they. Would it not be fair to you and me and all of the other tax payers that support TPWD and wildlife that we be paid for those deer trapped on that rich mans private property by his expensive high fences? No doubt he spends a lot of money improving the habitat into a virtual shagri-la for deer, but why does he spend the money? Altruism? Probably for cold hard cash. If he owns a 3,000 acre ranch, and has the wherewithal to buy and install high fences and to build improvements, then he has the money to pay us (the State) for the deer, as he should.

Whether they pay for the deer or not, you end up with a captive herd of deer. I personally, and I stress that this is my opinion only, don't care to hunt captive deer regardless of how big the pen is. That violates the entire ehtos of "hunting".

My other rant was about mechanical feeders and I note that you really didn't tread that path. You did though talk about hunting from elevated positions, and in my opinion that is just fine if the terrain is of a nature that it is the most reasonable way to hunt. I have no qualms with tree stands, not my thing, but not unsporting either - as long as they aren't set up over a mechanized feeder.

Now, back to the issue of how the hunting is done: Isn't that up to the hunter and the land-owner?

It most definitely is between the hunter and the land owner assuming it is within the laws of the land, and frankly once you have established high fences and penned deer it probably ought to be totally outside the TPWD rules anyway because you now have a pay for shooting business that is not a whit different than an exotic game ranch. To my knowledge TPWD doesn't regulate exotic game ranches.

But in the wee small hours of the night, I don't want to wake up and think that I shot a deer that was trained to come to bait inside a fence. What honor is there in that? Even if it is the most accessible and reliable method of hunting for the city dwellers (of which I have been one now for over 20 years), there is no honor in shooting a trained deer, in my opinion. And if I can't hunt with honor then I won't hunt.

Why do I even bring it up? Because I am curious to see if there are others that think like me, and to enjoy reasonable and rational discussions with intellegent hunters such as yourself. Heck I can solve all of the worlds problems if given half a chance

[MEDDAC19]

Seeing how this is a gun forum, I see a similar pattern developing here. Hunting over bait, using hounds, hunting from a vehicle, bow not rifle, inline vs flintlock, and so on, divide and conquer. Whether you think high fencing is ethical or not, it is currently a legal form of hunting in Texas. Get the practice banned and the most likely scenario will be that many thousands of acres, of Texas, will be permanently closed to hunting. If you are a hunter you should support all forms of hunting. How about the use of snares or trapping, should we stop the use of one method or the other? This is the same way we are losing our RKBA! Why do you need an assault rifle? The Barrett 50 BMG is too dangerous and will be used by terrorists. There is no sporting use for that weapon or round. There are many, who will use are personal likes and dislikes as a wedge to turn one against the other. Can you see a thread like this, except now it's semiauto's against wheelguns. Accept the fact of highfencing, it is profitable, legal and here to stay.

Butch
It seems to me that you are really hung up on the use of public deer for private benefit. What expense do you think is higher, the cost of a fawn or the cost of feeding a deer for 8-10 years?

[butch50]

It seems to me that you are really hung up on the use of public deer for private benefit. What expense do you think is higher, the cost of a fawn or the cost of feeding a deer for 8-10 years?

Actually I am "hung up" on training deer to show up at a specific time and place for the covenience of the "hunter". The other issues about high fencing and private acquistion of public property are side issues, but I think interesting ones. Are you a large landowner that has acquired deer this way? If not why defend it?

As I stated in prevous post - As far as I am concerned it someone wants to fence in deer, they should pay for the deer and after they have paid for the deer they should not even be under TPWD regulation - they have to my mind become the same operations as an exotic wildlife ranch. I have nothing particular agains that from a commerce point of view, I just wouldn't hunt in one myself and I don't think it is "hunting".

As for the rest of your response, I am not clear on what you are trying to say. It almost sounds like you think anyone with a differing opinion is an enemy of yours? The worst thing that can happen to us either as a group of sportsmen or as Americans is to think that everyone has to march in lock-step.

[cuate]

The good old days when we knew all of the neighbors and they knew us and we were welcome to cross fences and gates to hunt with all knowing that we wouldn't leave a gate open or shoot at cows and windmills and their water
tanks of galvanized steel.........Gone forever! We moved to cities and the good paying jobs, our former neighbors grew old and died and the land was bought by wealthy outsiders with a tax writeoff in mind. Whom quickly learned that raising and properly tending livestock and farming was not an every year paying proposition like selling deer leases which just about became big business.

The rural population declined and the city population grew by the millions. Not all the would be hunters were raised with shotguns, .22s, and rifles and began hunting rabbots at six or seven years of age. A good many had no experience with hunting or firearms but felt the desire to be part of man's oldest game, hunting. Some shot at everything that moved, some things that didn't, shot each other occasionally........But due to the NRA and other groups, hunters today are a lot better than years ago, some have military firearms experience and others firearm hobbies so in whatever manner they hunt, it is safer for other hunters. However method you use to hunt, do it safely!

[kingudaroad]

I

t almost sounds like you think anyone with a differing opinion is an enemy of yours? The worst thing that can happen to us either as a group of sportsmen or as Americans is to think that everyone has to march in lock-step.

Take some of your own advice Butch. Thats the smartest thing you've said in this entire thread

[butch50]

King: If I have personally insulted you in some way, allow me to apologize, you sound as though you have taken my comments as personally offensive.. I certainly did not mean them to be. It is difficult to tell someones real tone from a written message sometimes isn't it?

I have tried to point out a hunting system that a lot of people do not question, and I wonder why they don't question it? It does seem questionable to me. Should you call into question any of my habits or activities, in a rational manner, I will not take offense nor will I expect you to act like me and have my same opinion; and then get upset if you don't.

[Eghad]

Bah..whats all the fuss about. As long as you do something with the meat from the deer whats wrong with it? There is some work involved with a deer stand. Each to his own...

If you want to stalk around the woods.....go fer it.

both ways serve a useful purpose by harvesting deer and keeping the population to a safe level.

[22-rimfire]

Some people might say "What went right with deer hunting in Texas?" Everything. There is a lot to be said for the herd management philosphies that have developed in South Texas where many of the big ranchs are located as well as the BIG bucks. These principles are being applied all over the US, but especially in the South. Art Eatman brought out a lot of the truth to the deer business in Texas. Good for the sport? Personally, I just follow the game laws and consider most of the legal methods of hunting as sporting.

I don't think deer are put in the same catagory as water rights and water resources in Texas (which cross property lines). Meaning... if it is on your property, you probably "own" them or at least have the right to restrict access to your private property whether for fun or profit.

What ya think, Butch?

[butch50]

22:

I think that we Texans spend a lot of tax money on deer in one way or another. If the deer belong to the landowner when standing on that owners land, then we are wasting our tax money, with the exception of tax money spent on public lands that is. You know we could save a lot of money here....

Say, come to think of it, what does TPWD do anyway? Write a few tickets here and there? They must do more than that, but what? I know they have some biologists that do some field studies, but why waste that effort on private land where the owner is making a fortune off of selling the deer to the public?

This thread didn't really start out about high fencing, but it is part of what has gone wrong. What is wrong with the idea of taking high fenced ranches out of the public hunting law domain? Why can't they act as private enterprises the way that exotic game ranches do? What benefit do they dervie from TPWD? Why waste tax money on them?

Maybe, just maybe we should ask the question: What right does a landowner have making a profit off of a public resource? That's an interesting one to dig into. Certainly a landowner has the right to sell trespass rights on his property, but does he have the right to sell deer hunting when the deer are not his?

[impact]

Butch how do you figure that the state is wasting money or tax dollars on game ranches? I was reading at one time or another that the TPWD studied game ranches to find out how game ranches managed there deer so well. last year was the first year that you could take a doe in my county. The doe to buck ratio was to high. So the state said there could be some does shot in my county. They got that information from game ranches. Now if we could only keep people from shooting little 4 points we could have some nice bucks.
I always let the little guys pass.

And whats wrong with making money? I know some people that have some nice cattle ranches BUT! They have lots of money! and not from cattle ranching. They have cattle because it's something they like to do plus they get a tax break! This one rancher is worried that when he passes that the land will go to developers. he said that the money he makes from the cattle won't even pay the land taxes. Well! you should see his house

I know I called you a liberal. It's because you sound like you have an axe to grind with people who make money. People who make lots of money give other people like me jobs.

[butch50]

Impact: I don't have a problem with people making money, I just have a problem with people stealing public property and selling it to make money. When you put up high fences and sell the deer to the highest bidder you have stolen public property to make a profit. How much different is that from stealing aluminum guard rails off the highway and selling them at the scrap yard? Or am I missing something fundamental here? North Carolina allows tall fences, or used to, but they also took a census on all the deer trapped inside and the landowner had to pay the state $250 for each deer. That sounds fair and that makes sense to me.

Taking it one step further though, once you have trapped them and paid for them I think they are now your private property, and that what you do with them is no more business of TPWD than what you do with your cows. You own them, you get to decide how to treat them. Why should TPWD be involved in that? I would imagine that you would act in your best interest which would mean that you would be a super conservationist!

But I really started out talking about hunting over mechanical feeders - or in other words training deer to arrive at a specific spot at a specific time day after day, as not being "sporting" - which I maintain it is not.

I know that you think that I am some kind of subversive closet liberal just getting on this forum to bait people (no pun intended) but the truth is that politically I am a rabid radical conservative, way too far to the right for most people. I think Republicans are pure wobbly kneed weak sister sissys and only vote Republican because the democrats are even worse. I do question things from a logical standpoint which causes no end of turmoil in my life

[22-rimfire]

Butch: I wasn't trying to set you up with my last post for the "anticipated" response from you. I thought it an interesting twist of your opening title as many have commented about essentially what went right. I personally don't like mechanical deer feeders... maybe just restrict them during the season like other states? Feed crops are also planted as well for deer and this is done all over the US now. Even some of the Eastern states (agencies) are planting food crops for deer on their own lands these days (example PA which has state game lands).

To be honest, I don't know if the land owner "owns" the deer in Texas or where I currently live (TN). [We have something in common, both states have UT's that have great football teams!] Anyway, certainly some act like they own the deer at times. If someone here knows the answer to that question, it would be an interesting addition to this discussion on deer management and what is sporting and so forth.

[butch50]

Now there is a new thought for me. Allow mechanical feeders off-season but ban them during the hunting season? That sounds like a good idea. Where do they do that? Kudos to them! Feed crops don't train deer to show up at a certain time - the hunter is still faced with having to know enough about the deer to have a guess as to when they will show up, which is sporting in my mind. The hunter has to study the deer, scout them out, and know their habits and habitat - things that aren't necessary with a mechanical feeder.

[impact]

In most of the east you can only take a buck. If they did away with feeders maybe the state could let the people in the east take a doe as well? Kinda sounds like a good trade off.

[22-rimfire]

I grew up in PA. Lived in Texas (10+ yrs) and currently reside in Tennessee. Yeah, I'm a damn Yankee. Since Impact brought it up, I thought I would add a few details... PA does not allow any baiting of deer during deer season including salt licks. With archery coming in at the end of September, that is a long stretch of time when baiting is not allowed. It is very common to feed deer over the winter there. Used to be in PA, they had a Buck season (opening monday after turkey day with rifles) and there was a set couple of days when a single doe could be taken. Now, they have changed all that to allowing does (more than one by wildlife management area) to be taken during the regular gun season in order that the weather does not have an undue influence over the number of does that are taken for the year. You could always take a doe in archery season there. The state also limits the minimum size (number of points) to at least a 6pt in some areas of PA. This is part of their relatively new controversial herd management policy. Go to HuntingPA.com for long long discussions on the topic.

In Tennessee, they do not allow baiting of deer during the season. The state is divided in wildlife management areas and in the high deer population areas, you may take a doe during "buck" season. In fact, it is possible to take as many as 200+ does if you work it right (so I have read). Who would want all the meat?

I see nothing wrong with limiting the feeding time to before deer season only. Some would argue that planting corn, maze, or soybeans strictly for deer is the same thing. But it isn't really.

[Art Eatman]

Butch50, according to the wildlife biologists, a whitetail deer rarely ventures much over a half-mile to a mile from where he was born, absent being chased by dogs or being affected by drouth.

A one mile radius gives you Pi square miles of area, or about 1,900 acres. That ain't a big pasture, in the high-fence high-dollar deer hunting world.

The argument about public/private in Texas has gone on since back when I first came back home to Austin in 1963. The state's attitude is that it owns the deer and only set up the rules and regulations about the HowTo of the whole deal; seasons, bag limits, etc.

Whether or not a rancher lets you on his land is his business. What sort of fence he erects is his business--and only his business.

I note that in the session before last of the Legislature, there was some discussion of how big (or how small) is a "pen". How few acres can you enclose before you're creating a truly captive herd of deer? Envision hands being thrown into the air, because no real agreement is possible. So far, about the only answer is biological: Anything too small to provide habitat for some number of deer, without supplemental feeding. From what I have read, I'm sorta guessing that if you're talking about pastures over a thousand or so acres and trying to call that a "pen", you're gonna find a lot of serious MEGO in the audience.

Howsomever: Say that rancher I talked about earlier has done all that improvement to the land but doesn't do a high fence. You won't get to shoot any deer on his place, anyway, unless you pay his trespass fee. Further, those deer aren't gonna leave his place to go to poorer pasture on a neighboring unimproved ranch; Bambi ain't stupid.

Call Bambi self-penned.

Art