Giving a BUG to a non-CCW in an emergency

rmagill · January 15, 2006, 07:36 PM

When I carry, I normally carry two pistols. Normally the people I am arround are people that I have gone to the range with and are reasonable shots. Assuming I am the only person with a CCL and a situation arises which necessitates me drawing a firearm, would it be a bad idea to give the BUG (assuming, for the sake of arguement, that there is enough time) to someone nearby that I know can shoot it well, even though they do not have a CCL? What if the person is under 21? Thanks for your help.

Chris Phelps · January 15, 2006, 07:38 PM

If you were to physically hand a gun to someone nearby, it would no longer be concealed. A lot of states allow for open carry. Just my .02

AirForceShooter · January 15, 2006, 07:49 PM

if I knew him or her and knew they were good with a gun and the situation called for some back up, I'd defnitely hand them a gun if they were 15.

AFS

tanksoldier · January 15, 2006, 11:59 PM

Most juristictions have the legal defense of "necessity"... in other words, breaking the law was required in order to prevent a greater crime or tragedy, ie: breaking into someone's house to save them from a fire, or speeding in order to get a severely injured person to the ER. Technically, self defense is just a specialized version of the necessity defense.

In any situation dire enough to warrant me giving up my BUG, the necessity defense would probably be worth a shot.

OneInTheChamber · January 16, 2006, 11:30 AM

Well, If I was your unarmed friend, I'd certainly appreciate the BUG

If they can shoot well; two guns firing at the same time is better than one. Plus you can move and cover each other if need be. And if you get hit, maybe he/she can hold off the BG for you.

Or they may suck and blow the magazine away into nothing.

My .02

Chase

Weeg · January 16, 2006, 12:06 PM

Why are you giving him a BUG? Will it bite him?

Wouldn't it be easier to give him an extra weapon if you had one?

pittbug · January 16, 2006, 12:40 PM

Weeg: after 337 posts, I'd hope that this post was sarcastic

But for others who may not know:

BUG = Back Up Gun

Capt. Charlie · January 16, 2006, 12:53 PM

Exigent circumstances. It opens the door to just about anything goes, as long as you can articulate why it was necessary.

I sometimes have non-LEO's do a ride-along; it's good for PR. If I know the guy, and he has his act together, first thing I do is familiarize him with the shotgun, show him where the holder's electronic release is, and give him the ground rules (read: no rules

) if I'm getting shot at.

Mikeyboy · January 16, 2006, 01:02 PM

The classic mall shooting or a major SHTF event, I see no problem with it. A situation were you and a friend are walking down the street, and you don't like the looks of a group of teens and you hand him the weapon...bad idea.

OneInTheChamber · January 16, 2006, 04:36 PM

Quote:

If I know the guy, and he has his act together, first thing I do is familiarize him with the shotgun, show him where the holder's electronic release is, and give him the ground rules (read: no rules ) if I'm getting shot at.

Awesome. I'd hate to go on a ride along and have the SHTF and have some pissed off BG's who just killed an officer come up on an unarmed civilian hiding in a police car.

Chase

Mannlicher · January 16, 2006, 06:15 PM

This comes up every few months. It's always a bad idea to give guns to someone else.

Edward429451 · January 16, 2006, 06:23 PM

In Mikeyboy's scenario iot would be a bad idea but if exigent circumstances exist, why not? Bettern being dead.

I've done it a couple times. Happily, no shots fired. Does that mean I done wrong? I think it means we were just lucky.

IndianaDean · January 16, 2006, 08:21 PM

I only know two people who do not have ccws that I'd give a firearm too. I would not give one to anyone else under any circumstances.

nvankalker · January 16, 2006, 08:40 PM

go ahead give to person your sure of

Doug.38PR · January 16, 2006, 09:15 PM

Funny, I posted this same question a few weeks ago. I personally would say yes it would be okay. The only thing to worry about is if he hits any innocent bystandards then you might face trouble too as it was your gun. But on the other hand, you face the same thing if you have to use the gun yourself. With that in mind, just think about how much confidence you have in the would be man you would hand your backup off to.

Here are the responses I got to my posting: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=192590

Here it is again on S&W forum with it's responses:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee.../205108149/p/1

garryc · January 16, 2006, 11:32 PM

It seems to me that if some double scum prosecutor ( meaning lawyer AND politician, ergo double scum) decides he committed a crime with it then you actually facilitated the crime. Logic and the legal system are often on opposing sides

Weeg · January 17, 2006, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Weeg: after 337 posts, I'd hope that this post was sarcastic But for others who may not know:

BUG = Back Up Gun

Thanks...

Nope, I simply don't understand all of these acronymns...

Why not just type out the words?

.

Doug.38PR · January 17, 2006, 10:26 AM

NP (No Problem) BG (Bad Guy) LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) BUG (Back Up Gun) BRB (Be Right Back) ASAP (As Soon As Possible) ND (Negligent Discharge) AD (Accidental Discharge) et al

On Instant Message or Chat rooms abreviations are mostly so you can get the message typed as soon as possible to make the conversation go quicker. Other than that, it's mostly just laziness (and I am just as guilty of it

)

payne · January 17, 2006, 05:38 PM

There are just a few people that i would give my BUG to. If those people were with me then they're propbably armed. But, if they weren't then they'd get my other gun. two is better than one.

USNavy_233 · January 17, 2006, 08:01 PM

Aside from my wife (which sadly will not carry) and prehaps one other individual, I can't think of anyone I'd trust to be next to be in a firefight.

Cpl_Doughboy · January 23, 2006, 06:53 AM

A friend of mine happens to be a LEO and he has given me his back up weapon before. (Thankfully I didn't have to use it)

Double Naught Spy · January 23, 2006, 11:12 AM

Chris Phelps said,

Quote:

If you were to physically hand a gun to someone nearby, it would no longer be concealed.

Is your real name Brendan McKown? McKown did not draw his concealed handgun during the Tacoma Mall shootings because he thought it would be illegal as the gun would no longer be concealed.

When you are defending your life, unconcealed weapons are not illegal because the are unconcealed.

Doug.38PR said,

Quote:

The only thing to worry about is if he hits any innocent bystandards then you might face trouble too as it was your gun. But on the other hand, you face the same thing if you have to use the gun yourself. With that in mind, just think about how much confidence you have in the would be man you would hand your backup off to.

This is a great example of why I dislike a lot of Ayoob's (and some others) warnings concerning gunfights. Because of potential and possible legal rammifications that might arise after the fight, Ayoob has people making self defense tactics and equipment decisions that pertain more to surviving the legal battles after a fight than selecting tactics or equipment that will best get you through the fight.

Doug notes that you might have legal troubles for giving a gun to another during a fight in case that person ends up shooting a non-combatant. This is a ridiculous concern during a gun fight and it sure as hell won't matter at all if your failure to pass off the gun to another that would help protect you isn't passed off and both of you get killed, you with the BUG still in your pocket, unused, your buddy unarmed.

From a tactical and self defense standpoint, two armed people with two sets of eyes can cover twice as much area in two different directions simultaneously than one armed person. Or, two armed folks can put up twice the fire in a single direction than just one armed person. Two armed folks shooting at the bad guys means that the bad guys have to deal with twice as many threats than if just one person is shooting.

Sure, nobody wants to be sued or go to jail. However, during a fight, you aren't likely to know whether you are going to get sued or go to jail for some aspects of the fight. That is just a hypothetical possibility of a future threat to you. You won't be dealing with that possible future threat if you don't take care of your known, direct threat to your life.

Doug.38PR · January 23, 2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

This is a great example of why I dislike a lot of Ayoob's (and some others) warnings concerning gunfights. Because of potential and possible legal rammifications that might arise after the fight, Ayoob has people making self defense tactics and equipment decisions that pertain more to surviving the legal battles after a fight than selecting tactics or equipment that will best get you through the fight.

Doug notes that you might have legal troubles for giving a gun to another during a fight in case that person ends up shooting a non-combatant. This is a ridiculous concern during a gun fight and it sure as hell won't matter at all if your failure to pass off the gun to another that would help protect you isn't passed off and both of you get killed, you with the BUG still in your pocket, unused, your buddy unarmed.

From a tactical and self defense standpoint, two armed people with two sets of eyes can cover twice as much area in two different directions simultaneously than one armed person. Or, two armed folks can put up twice the fire in a single direction than just one armed person. Two armed folks shooting at the bad guys means that the bad guys have to deal with twice as many threats than if just one person is shooting.

Sure, nobody wants to be sued or go to jail. However, during a fight, you aren't likely to know whether you are going to get sued or go to jail for some aspects of the fight. That is just a hypothetical possibility of a future threat to you. You won't be dealing with that possible future threat if you don't take care of your known, direct threat to your life.

I concede your point Double Naught Spy. Odds are if I am sitting in a booth at Chilis with some friends or standing in line at McDonalds (God forbid!:barf: ) and three or four bad men storm in with guns ready to rob the place or just start mowing people down Luby's style, getting sued or even charges pressed by self righteous DAs is going to be last thing on my mind when passing my BUG under the table or palming it to my friend in line.
But AFTERWARD, after I thank the good Lord for protecting us all through the shootout and am through talking with the police I will have such questions in the back of my mine....BUT now that I think about it, if the good Lord can get me through a gunfight with three thugs with guns, then who is a DA in a court to Him?

January 15, 2006, 07:36 PM	#1
rmagill Senior Member Join Date: March 29, 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 142	Giving a BUG to a non-CCW in an emergency When I carry, I normally carry two pistols. Normally the people I am arround are people that I have gone to the range with and are reasonable shots. Assuming I am the only person with a CCL and a situation arises which necessitates me drawing a firearm, would it be a bad idea to give the BUG (assuming, for the sake of arguement, that there is enough time) to someone nearby that I know can shoot it well, even though they do not have a CCL? What if the person is under 21? Thanks for your help.

January 15, 2006, 07:38 PM	#2
Chris Phelps Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: South China, Maine Posts: 814	If you were to physically hand a gun to someone nearby, it would no longer be concealed. A lot of states allow for open carry. Just my .02 __________________ Bushmaster Superlight AR-15 5.56mm / Custom 24" Heavy BBL Varmint AR-15 5.56mm / Ruger M77 .257 Roberts / Ruger MKI 22LR Pistol / EAA Witness 9mm Pistol / Daisy 2202 22LR / Remington Viper 522 22LR / Stevens 200 .223 / Savage 10FP 24" .308 / Mauser 98 Sporter 30-06

January 15, 2006, 11:59 PM	#4
tanksoldier Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 219	Most juristictions have the legal defense of "necessity"... in other words, breaking the law was required in order to prevent a greater crime or tragedy, ie: breaking into someone's house to save them from a fire, or speeding in order to get a severely injured person to the ER. Technically, self defense is just a specialized version of the necessity defense. In any situation dire enough to warrant me giving up my BUG, the necessity defense would probably be worth a shot. __________________ I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

January 16, 2006, 11:30 AM	#5
OneInTheChamber Senior Member Join Date: December 12, 2005 Posts: 789	Well, If I was your unarmed friend, I'd certainly appreciate the BUG If they can shoot well; two guns firing at the same time is better than one. Plus you can move and cover each other if need be. And if you get hit, maybe he/she can hold off the BG for you. Or they may suck and blow the magazine away into nothing. My .02 Chase __________________ Insert witty, comical, and/or significant quote here.

January 16, 2006, 12:53 PM	#8
Capt. Charlie Moderator Emeritus Join Date: March 24, 2005 Location: Steubenville, OH Posts: 4,446	Exigent circumstances. It opens the door to just about anything goes, as long as you can articulate why it was necessary. I sometimes have non-LEO's do a ride-along; it's good for PR. If I know the guy, and he has his act together, first thing I do is familiarize him with the shotgun, show him where the holder's electronic release is, and give him the ground rules (read: no rules ) if I'm getting shot at. __________________ TFL Members are ambassadors to the world for firearm owners. What kind of ambassador does *your* post make *you?* I train in earnest, to do the things that I pray in earnest, I'll never have to do. --Capt. Charlie

January 15, 2006, 07:49 PM	#3
AirForceShooter Senior Member Join Date: December 21, 2005 Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida Posts: 1,296	if I knew him or her and knew they were good with a gun and the situation called for some back up, I'd defnitely hand them a gun if they were 15. AFS

January 16, 2006, 12:06 PM	#6
Weeg Senior Member Join Date: November 7, 2005 Posts: 463	Why are you giving him a BUG? Will it bite him? Wouldn't it be easier to give him an extra weapon if you had one?

January 16, 2006, 12:40 PM	#7
pittbug Member Join Date: July 28, 2005 Location: PA, Shoot: PA, OH Posts: 51	Weeg: after 337 posts, I'd hope that this post was sarcastic But for others who may not know: BUG = Back Up Gun

January 16, 2006, 01:02 PM	#9
Mikeyboy Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Posts: 1,231	The classic mall shooting or a major SHTF event, I see no problem with it. A situation were you and a friend are walking down the street, and you don't like the looks of a group of teens and you hand him the weapon...bad idea.

January 16, 2006, 06:15 PM	#11
Mannlicher Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2001 Location: North Central Florida & Miami Posts: 3,209	overall, a bad idea This comes up every few months. It's always a bad idea to give guns to someone else. __________________ Nemo Me Impune Lacesset "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so.".........Ronald Reagan

January 16, 2006, 06:23 PM	#12
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	In Mikeyboy's scenario iot would be a bad idea but if exigent circumstances exist, why not? Bettern being dead. I've done it a couple times. Happily, no shots fired. Does that mean I done wrong? I think it means we were just lucky.

January 16, 2006, 08:21 PM	#13
IndianaDean Senior Member Join Date: September 10, 2004 Location: Indiana(obviously) Posts: 362	I only know two people who do not have ccws that I'd give a firearm too. I would not give one to anyone else under any circumstances.

January 16, 2006, 08:40 PM	#14
nvankalker Junior Member Join Date: January 15, 2006 Posts: 6	go ahead give to person your sure of

January 16, 2006, 09:15 PM	#15
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	Funny, I posted this same question a few weeks ago. I personally would say yes it would be okay. The only thing to worry about is if he hits any innocent bystandards then you might face trouble too as it was your gun. But on the other hand, you face the same thing if you have to use the gun yourself. With that in mind, just think about how much confidence you have in the would be man you would hand your backup off to. Here are the responses I got to my posting: http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=192590 Here it is again on S&W forum with it's responses: http://smith-wessonforum.com/groupee.../205108149/p/1

January 16, 2006, 11:32 PM	#16
garryc Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2005 Posts: 2,536	It seems to me that if some double scum prosecutor ( meaning lawyer AND politician, ergo double scum) decides he committed a crime with it then you actually facilitated the crime. Logic and the legal system are often on opposing sides

January 17, 2006, 10:26 AM	#18
Doug.38PR Junior member Join Date: January 18, 2005 Posts: 3,298	NP (No Problem) BG (Bad Guy) LEO (Law Enforcement Officer) BUG (Back Up Gun) BRB (Be Right Back) ASAP (As Soon As Possible) ND (Negligent Discharge) AD (Accidental Discharge) et al On Instant Message or Chat rooms abreviations are mostly so you can get the message typed as soon as possible to make the conversation go quicker. Other than that, it's mostly just laziness (and I am just as guilty of it )

January 17, 2006, 05:38 PM	#19
payne Senior Member Join Date: March 26, 2005 Location: SE US Posts: 519	There are just a few people that i would give my BUG to. If those people were with me then they're propbably armed. But, if they weren't then they'd get my other gun. two is better than one. __________________ If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu

January 17, 2006, 08:01 PM	#20
USNavy_233 Senior Member Join Date: November 10, 2004 Location: Keystone Heights, Florida Posts: 115	Aside from my wife (which sadly will not carry) and prehaps one other individual, I can't think of anyone I'd trust to be next to be in a firefight. __________________ He is greatest, who is trained in the severest school. -General Thucydides, 424 BC

January 23, 2006, 06:53 AM	#21
Cpl_Doughboy Junior Member Join Date: January 23, 2006 Posts: 3	A friend of mine happens to be a LEO and he has given me his back up weapon before. (Thankfully I didn't have to use it)