First deer since reloading.

[trobin]

117 gr Hornady SST over a medium hot load of IMR 4350 (I erased the data since I was starting over) in 25-06. Rounds shot well enough to hunt with. Tuesday a nice wide buck came out at roughly 180 yards quartering away from me. I would estimate live weight near 160-170. I put a shot behind the front left should. The buck dropped and grunted. After 5-10 minutes his head was up. He stood up but would quickly fall down. He bounced around behind some brush so I decided I'd better get there to pop him again if need be. As I got closer he got up and steadied himself enough to walk into brush and never be seen again. Found where he had initially hit the ground and there was a smear of blood. Didn't find and more blood for roughly 40 yards where I heard him wrestling in the greenbriar. This was a triple whammy. 1: First deer with my reloads. 2: Biggest buck ever (Around 20 inch inside spread). 3: Had just bought a $315 Texas license.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Not to sound like a jerk but... did you only bring one round? Why on earth would you not put a second round into an animal that's still alive after 2 minutes, say nothing of 10?

[HiBC]

Good for you!!
I'd like to hear more about the bullet performance,where was the hit,what did the bullet do?

[trobin]

Legitimate question Brian. The lane I had to shoot down is a fence row barely ride enough to drive a pick up down. The grass here isn't thick but enough that you can't see a deer laying in it. The deer acted like he was dying until he started bouncing around. Once he was able to get up he was gone.

Now my question is why should I have to shoot a 160-170 lb Texas whitetail twice? To me the answer is the SST had thinner skin than the buck.

[Panfisher]

Any more info on exact bullet placement, what sort of damage inside, exit or not?

[trobin]

Never recovered the deer. Aim was a couple inches towards the shoulder from last rib. Deers angle was roughly 45 degree. I've made that shot before without problems but never with a reload or ballistic tip bullet.

And I've never ever had to shoot anything twice with the 25-06.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Ah, understood.

The trouble with quartering shots is that the margin for error is much smaller. I'm not saying you shouldn't take them (I do) but being 2" off on your shot at 45dg angle is 4" on the animal.

You need a bullet that will ensure deep penetration if you make a mistake. That means monolithic.

I've not seen any significant difference in penetration for identical bullets in different calibers, not enough to make a bad quartering shot into a good one, anyway. For instance, a Core-Lokt or SST in a .25-06 or .270 or .243 will have roughly the same performance, on average. A monolithic bullet like the Hornady GMX or Barnes TTSX will have much deeper penetration on all calibers.

I've screwed up shots that I've made a dozen times before. It's very likely to be a combination of a slightly misplaced shot. back toward the guts, coupled with a bullet that has plenty of penetration for a broadside or even perfectly placed quartering shot but not enough when the shot is back a few inches and you need an extra 6-10" inches of penetration to reach the lungs.

The behavior of your deer sounds exactly like what I would expect from a gut shot. I've seen it several times. They will lay down immediately, within seconds of being shot, even stay down if the shot makes them fall but they'll get back up eventually or if scared.

[Sure shot wv]

Trobin- I just took a doe last Friday with a 243 similar to your circumstances. I placed a what I thought perfect vital shot and the deer dropped about 10 yards away. As I got up to it, it popped its head up and I froze knowing it was gonna stand up. At that point I thought maybe I pulled my shot a little. Well sure enough it got up and took off. Went another 25 yards or so into the woods. At that point I let it go for a min thinking it was done because you could see she was hurt. Anyway as I started trailing it I realized it left absolutely NO blood trail. So then I really started doubting my shot. I went into the woods and it was laying right there and popped its head up again so I took a head shot with the 243 again. Fast forward I get the deer and gut it and get it back to the barn. My first shot was a perfect shot right through the lungs, and a clean exit on the backside. The lungs were gone turned to jelly. But that doe just kept on going. I don't know how long it would have lasted but I was not letting it go. Anyway I guess I'm saying even sometimes with a great shot they still need a second one. It would have died regardless but I wasn't gonna let it suffer.

[AllenJ]

Tough situation Trobin and I feel for you but you. If you are planning on taking angle shots though you really should think about using better bullets. Bonded core or as Brian pointed out monolithic are worth every penny in my opinion

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Sure shot wv

My first shot was a perfect shot right through the lungs, and a clean exit on the backside. The lungs were gone turned to jelly. But that doe just kept on going. I don't know how long it would have lasted but I was not letting it go.

This is unfathomable to me.

A high and far back double lung shot with "slow" projectiles can leave the animals lungs partially inflated and they can remain conscious for a relatively long time.

An animals whose lungs have been "jellied" by a high velocity projectile can not possibly take another breath and has 5 to at best 15 seconds of useful consciousness, depending on where it was in the breath cycle at the moment of impact.

It is not possible for an animal that can't breath to maintain consciousness for several minutes.

[Sure shot wv]

Brain- I would have agreed whole heartedly up until Friday when I saw it first hand. I have no idea or explanation of how this deer kept going. The heart was in perfect shape which I also couldn't believe. You could see the bullet passed through close to the heart. Maybe the angle the shot was on saved it idk. I'm still at a loss of words over this deer.

Sorry for the high jack!

[Panfisher]

My friends sometimes think I am a little off mentally, every deer I field dress regardless of where of who killed it I just have to examine the damage and know what they were shooting. Sometimes having to ask to see the ammo when the best they can provide is "some kind of 30-06". Sometimes an angle can dramatically change the path to the vitals or at least our thoughts as to where the vitals lay. I have killed deer on angling shots and believed I placed it "just right" and when recovery finally made I was off by just a little or put it right where I aimed, just wasnt the right spot for the circumstances. Best scenario on angling shots is to plan to break one of the shoulders depending on quartering towards or away, generall that will put the bullet through the vitals and help anchor it if you do indeed break a shoulder. A single lung hit deer can remain mobile for an amazing amount of time occasionally you never can guarantee how any given deer will react.

[trobin]

Hopefully he's still alive and makes the mistake of coming by here this evening. If he does he'll catch a 100 gr core lokt where he decides to give me the shot. I've had great success with the 100 gr core lokt. When I get home Ill start on a load for 110 accubonds and IMR 4831. Was even thinking of 100 grain sciroccos or 100 gr E-tips. Any thoughts? Btw the blood found was good blood.

[HiBC]

Bummer it got away.

I have not used an SST on game yet.If it hit the 2nd rib with a fwd quartering shot,there is not much serious penetration required.It has to punch ribcage,then the heart/lungs are in trouble.

However,back some,you hit paunch/liver,forward a little and the near shoulder would get hammered,but it might not enter the chest cavity.

A nice thing about handloading,you can pick a different bullet.Hornady has an Interbond,.The Nosler Ballistic tip is another easy expanding bullet.I have had good luck with them in my .257,the 115 gr.Nosler also makes a 110 Accubond.

And,there is the 120 gr Partition.

[shortwave]

An animals whose lungs have been "jellied" by a high velocity projectile can not possibly take another breath and has 5 to at best 15 seconds of useful consciousness, depending on where it was in the breath cycle at the moment of impact.

Since a deer is capable of running 30-40mph , it can cover a further distance then often thought in 5-15 seconds. I've seen and had deer run a good 80+yds with both lungs shot through and the top of the heart blown out.

True, these deer were not shot with expanding bullets from rifles but rather slower shotgun slugs and M/L bullets. But still yet, both lungs deflated by the 1/2" holes(remember, two 1/2" holes per lung) and the top part of the heart gone.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Yes, they can cover a fair distance, I've had them go 150 yards or more, twice. Once with a 12ga slug that also severed the aorta and once with a 1 1/4" broadhead. They can't take several minutes doing it though.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

Sound like y'all underestimated the animal's determination too survive.
It's truly amazing how a animal can take such abuse a still struggle to its feet.
Been there. And seen those scenario's in the past myself. As I'm sure others have too. How about you?

"A lesson taught is a lessen learned."

[Kimber84]

My buddy shot a buck a few weeks ago with a 30 cal SST, I somewhat autopsied it when I quartered it out. I guess I was kinda "ehhhh" on what I saw. While it killed the deer dead I didn't find any piece of the bullet larger than a few shards, it seems as though it just shattered when it hit the first rib.

The buck I killed on the other hand was with an Interbond, same weight and same cartridge (30-06, or is that caliber lol)

Anyways, the Interbond blew a hole through both sides and left about a 7/8-1" exit wound. I know its all in where the hit was made, and my point is if you're wanting more reliable penetration through bone then I think the Interbond or GMX would be a better choice with regards to Hornady.

I do shoot SSTs out of my .243, but only shoot yotes with them, obviously it devastates them, but again that's a whole different animal.

[603Country]

Sounds exactly like what happened once to me 10 or 15 years ago. Big 10 point came to the feeder, I shot him - just like I'd shot a hundred or more just like him - right behind the shoulder. He went down like a rock. Twitched a few times. I got out the thermos and had some coffee before leaving the blind to see my 10 point. Finished the coffee, climbed out of the blind, turned to look at the dead deer that was maybe 125 yards away. The deer jerked a couple of times, twitched like crazy for 3 seconds or so, stood up wobbly and ran away. Never to be seen again. My jaw dropped. Couldn't believe it. Walked over to where the deer had been. Dark blood and not much of it. Plenty of hair. I had hit him too high. Probably just above the spine and temporarily knocked him out or paralyzed him.

If you'd hit the deer in the lungs, you'll get two things - bright oxygenated blood, not dark blood; and a dead deer. You didn't hit where you think you hit. I think you duplicated my shot. I can close my eyes and still see that 10 point. He was really something. Dang!

No offense intended, but I don't think your problem was the bullet or failure of the bullet.

[Sure Shot Mc Gee]

A liver shot also displays dark blood. To track a liver shot. You almost have to have snow or a good dog.

[Gunplummer]

Never saw a liver shot deer(Rifle) go very far. What is with all the fancy bullets? I load Corlokt if the size is available and Hornady or Speer Soft Points otherwise. Why pay more for something that will probably not work as well?

[Mobuck]

Been watching too many hunting shows on TV?
My strategy is , don't save a shell and lose an animal. Last year, I "killed" a nice 12 point 3 times before he fell. Three shots in the ribcage from a 25/06 turned the lungs to mush but he was still trying to get over the fence. Shot number 4 was about to fly when he dropped. This year's buck took a 110 grain Accubond from my 257 Wby through the lungs but wasn't down by the time I cycled the bolt. A 40 acre jungle was just a few yards away so he got another. Both hits were fatal.
Take this as a lesson and make sure to actually kill the deer next time.

[buck460XVR]

Unless one recovers the animal, determining bullet performance is like reading tea leaves.....just seeing what you want. Without recovering the animal exact shot placement can never be determined and that is what is paramount. Blaming the bullet is always the easy way out. A experienced hunter is always prepared to shoot an animal again if it needs it, because he knows there are way too many variables to count on a DRT every time one pulls the trigger. IMHO, there was more fail here than bullet performance.

[hbhobby]

Last year i shot a deer and jellied the lungs exploded the heart and it still ran 150-200 yrds. Think about it, i can hold my breath for about a minute so in theory i could be lung shot and go for probably longer just on O2 in the blood especially if you factor adrenaline into the factor. Now that would be shortened by blood loss but even without a heart you can go 15-20 seconds before blacking out --> death, now spinal damage or brain extrusion they stop right there

[kraigwy]

A critter can run a long ways with a heart/lung shot.

How ever, I never seen one with such a shot, go down, flop around a bit and later get to his feet and run off.

If that's what happened, then his heart/lungs weren't hurt. You can normal tell where a deer is hit by his reactions. You just have to watch to see if another shot is needed. If it's down for a bit and then is able to get to its feet it needs another shot.

It's not the load. I shot a ton of deer/antelope with a 237 Rbts which doesn't hit as hard as a 25-06. I don't like SSTs for hunting, they do blow up. I like SSTs for practice because they have the same BC as the same weight Hornady inter-bonds. IBs are more expensive but hold together quite will. I use the Cheaper SSTs for practice/plinking and IBs for hunting, loaded the same way there is no sight changes needed.

Reloading has nothing to do with this story except it was the first. I've been hunting for just short of 60 years. The only time I've used factory ammo was my first deer. At 8 years old I had to scape together 25 cents to buy three 16 ga shot gun shells. Since, all I've used is reloaded ammo.

I hate the idea of the critter getting away to die a painful death. I think I would have put another round in him when he started to get up. Even slightly wounded deer wont make it through some winter. If they make it that long, they're easy pray for coyotes 'n such.

This fall I noticed an antelope limping when it walked, yet ran like hell. It wasn't the best speed goat I've killed, but I shot it anyway. It had just recently had its foot shot off. This was opening morning so the wound wasn't that old. It was gonna die anyway so used my tag on it.

I don't believe in a non-fatal wound on critters, its just a matter of time. In the case of the antelope, he wouldn't have been able to paw through the snow for grass. He would have starved, or gotten so week that coyotes would have got him.

Of course I wasn't there, so I don't really know. Just sad.