Police shoot out close to home

[MTT TL]

My intervention (if I should choose to do so) would come from a distance such that neither the cops nor the bad guys would actually be seeing me.

That would actually be ideal I think.

[doh_312]

I think that would be the best. Snipe from a place where the BG dont know what is happening. I dont have a rifle, save for the .22, trying to snipe a BG with that thing would prolly just tick him off

[threegun]

Also, a DA or AUSA will have no trouble painting you as a "gun shop commando" or a wannabe. Just enjoy your right to carry discreetly and use sound judgement. Please put the badges away! I always respect a ccw holders right to carry especially if they extend me the courtesy of letting me know they're armed. But, if they brandish a Badge, or if I noticed they have one, it would certainly raise my suspicions or cast them in a negative light. I think the same can be said for any LEO, and remember most of us, or at least the ones I know, are generally gun friendly.

Please explain to me how I am going to be painted as a gun shop commando or a wannabe cop for holding my id and a badge for responders to identify me as the good guy.

Many of you guys are fixated on this notion that the only reason for carrying a badge is to impersonate an officer. While many folks do try to impersonate officers for whatever reason please understand that this is not the case with all folks.

My one and only reason for carrying a badge is to prevent you guys from shooting me by mistake......THATS IT!!

If you arrive upon a scene with a man being held at gun point and the man with the gun is holding up a badge will you shoot him by mistake thinking he was the bad guy? I have asked more than a dozen officers and the answer is always no.

If it offends you officers who've worked hard to earn the title I'm sorry. Thats not the intention. Unless I've had to pull and wait for you to show up while still exposed you will never be offended.

Using your logic someone who buys a white crown victoria, while hoping that someday an officer will let him drive by the speed trap without giving him a ticket, is guilty of officer impersonation.

[OldMarksman]

My one and only reason for carrying a badge is to prevent you guys from shooting me by mistake......THATS IT!!

But the question may be whether they would not shoot because they would think you are a policeman. Can you think of any other reason why the "badge" would so influence them? If your motive is to make people think that you are a policeman, how can you possibly say that that would not constitute impersonation?

If you arrive upon a scene with a man being held at gun point and the man with the gun is holding up a badge will you shoot him by mistake thinking he was the bad guy? I have asked more than a dozen officers and the answer is always no.

So, officers will not shoot someone they believe to be a police officer. Surprised?

In some jurisdictions, impersonating an officer is apparently a crime only if it is done for an unlawful purpose. In others the reason does not matter--it's a crime.

So, if the LEO says, "he flashed a badge and I thought he was a policeman" you're gonna have some " 'splainin' " to do.

And if something goes bad at the scene because you flashed the badge, you could end up in real trouble on both civil and criminal fronts.

Please explain to me how I am going to be painted as a gun shop commando or a wannabe cop for holding my id and a badge for responders to identify me as the good guy.

A CCW badge does not identify anyone as a "good guy" any more than an old toy U. S. Marshal badge from a box of cereal did.

[threegun]

But the question may be whether they would not shoot because they would think you are a policeman. Can you think of any other reason why the "badge" would so influence them? If your motive is to make people think that you are a policeman, how can you possibly say that that would not constitute impersonation?

There are badges for many many things. Playing on the fact that an officer will, when combined with proper gun handling, give pause before prematurely shooting someone holding a badge, is not illegal. I'm not acting as a cop, dressing like a cop, claiming I'm a cop, or even identifying myself with a police badge. I am simply holding my permit and ccw badge. Any assumptions made are simply that assumptions. My actions are consistent with a man desiring to identify himself nothing more.

So, if the LEO says, "he flashed a badge and I thought he was a policeman" you're gonna have some " 'splainin' " to do.

It doesn't matter what he thinks. It matters what I do. I flashed my ccp badge and id..why.....to assist the officer in understanding who the good guy was. To let him know that I was licensed to carry my gun.

A CCW badge does not identify anyone as a "good guy" any more than an old toy U. S. Marshal badge from a box of cereal did.

You seem to be missing the point. It works!! I'll try once more to explain. Say you have been robbed and have had to fire a shot at your adversary. Bad guy is down but still a threat although you have separated him from his weapon. You have said bad guy at gun point. You are starting to call 911 however an officer heard the shot or was already called by a bystander and is pulling on to the scene. You have your id and badge up and visible.

If you are the cop what does this scenario tell you?

Most officers are not going to shoot you without the badge however any that might have will surely not shoot someone holding something that resembles one.

I'm a bald shaved Hispanic male with a menacing look and I'm holding a firearm........I scream gang banger. How much safer am I holding up a ccp badge and id?

[OldMarksman]

It doesn't matter what he thinks. It matters what I do. I flashed my ccp badge and id..why.....to assist the officer in understanding who the good guy was.

So--you have flashed a badge that has absolutely no legal significance, in a situation in which he is apt to think you are a policeman--the only thing the badge may impart that might make him think you are the "good guy"....

To let him know that I was licensed to carry my gun.

First, that badge doesn't do that. Your Florida CCW card does, but the time for bringing it out is not in the middle of a confrontation. They don't care whether you are licensed at that point. An unlicensed person can lawfully defend himself, a licensed carrier can be a fugitive, and the policeman's only concerns at that point are staying safe and taking control of the situation.

You seem to be missing the point. It works!!

Isn't that simply because they think you are a policeman?

Say you have been robbed and have had to fire a shot at your adversary. Bad guy is down but still a threat although you have separated him from his weapon. You have said bad guy at gun point. You are starting to call 911 however an officer heard the shot or was already called by a bystander and is pulling on to the scene. You have your id and badge up and visible.

Risky strategy. If he's down, I think it best to move behind something and get your gun back in your holster but stay ready to draw.

Don't take it from me. I strongly recommend that you carefully read Chapter 12 ("When the Shooting Stops") of Lessons from an Armed America, by Mark Walters and Kathy Jackson (pax, here).

Here's where I got mine:

http://www.whitefeatherpress.com/id16.html

And I don't think I would hold up what to me is essentially a meaningless badge produced by someone to make money that might get me into trouble with an impersonation charge and cause me to lose my license.

Don't take that from me, either. Show your badge to a local criminal attorney and talk to him about it. If he says I'm wrong great.

Be careful out there.

[MTT TL]

People get emotional about the whole CCW badge thing.

It screams poser more than anything and even though your intention is not impersonation, it is still an admitted attempt to deceive the police.

Yet...

I understand where you are coming from. I wouldn't do it myself, but I do see your point. After all if you aren't cheating, you aren't trying...

[sixxgunnernick]

on the badge..ccw on the id..you say ccw..its legal..thats what its for. I was an ohio peace officer I carried on duty I have worked with all kinds of police officers..swat narcotics..undercover street cops and more..I wasn't a cop..I don't want to be..but you have to go through a backround check to be ccw. If threegun is holding a lets call it ccw i.d. and claims to be ccw theres no 'splainin to do cause theres no case..its legal. Maybe I'm a wanna be lawyer!! Matlock sucked.:barf:

[whip1]

About the badge, the LEO that taught my class in Ohio said DO NOT use them. I'll take his word for it.

[sixxgunnernick]

and he will take your good willed life when your trying to help him or save innocent life ..as he is pinning you down wishing you had something to identify yourself with but wait the guy that just robbed and killed someone in your family just killed thd cop that almost just killed you. The more I read on the old fart forum the more I will not try to help..the funny thing is I don't even have a ccw badge..if I forget my wallet and I'm in an accident maybe my i.d. will let e.m.s. I am armed. My i.d. around my neck. Sounds like Jerry Seinfeld did the right thing.. innocent bystander got them in jail and ended the show! Thanks

[sixxgunnernick]

I have the balls to risk my life to help a cop..to do the right thing I have the right to identify myself. Its about helping..its about saving lives including my own.. later to the retired old fart thread..Andy Griffith show sucked:barf::barf:

[Glenn Dee]

Old fart Forum?... lol Saaayyy I resemble that remark. OK I'm sorry if I or anyone else hurt your feelings. It was never my intent. I understand why you and others want to carry a CCW Badge... I really do Understand. It's kind of like me carrying my retired shield. I only shared information with everyone... I'm not judging you or anyone else. In fact if you go back one page I posted a suggestion how you could carry a CCW badge and probably avoid all the issues we've been talking about.

Once again I'm really sorry if I have offended you...

Glenn Dee

[threegun]

First, that badge doesn't do that. Your Florida CCW card does, but the time for bringing it out is not in the middle of a confrontation. They don't care whether you are licensed at that point. An unlicensed person can lawfully defend himself, a licensed carrier can be a fugitive, and the policeman's only concerns at that point are staying safe and taking control of the situation.

My card and badge are in the same holder.

In the "middle" of a confrontation my only concern is ending the threat. After its over and only if I am forced to keep my firearm exposed will any badge be displayed. The fact is anyone can be the bad guy when the police roll up, as you mentioned above. Another fact is that police will pause to a badge holder (when combined with non threatening gun handling). This pause makes me safer as the police are taking control of a situation.

Isn't that simply because they think you are a policeman?

Yes it is. Again thats not my problem. Nothing I do or say has police on it nor am I acting in such a capacity. Simply identifying myself nothing more.

Risky strategy. If he's down, I think it best to move behind something and get your gun back in your holster but stay ready to draw.

May be a risky move. I was using it as an example though.

And I don't think I would hold up what to me is essentially a meaningless badge produced by someone to make money that might get me into trouble with an impersonation charge and cause me to lose my license.

It is 100 percent meaingless......BUT IT WORKS. It cannot get you in trouble for impersonation alone. You would have to say you are a cop or try to arrest someone after showing it. If I flipped it out at a buccaneer game to try to gain entrance into the game.....im in trouble. The saving grace is the fact that it says cwp on it and it is proper to show id to LE in this kind of scenario.

Remember you don't go up to the cops and say hey I was trying to fool you into thinking I'm a cop, come on man. You are simply showing proper id which in this case will keep you from getting shot by mistake from a good guy.

I'm a bald shaved Hispanic male with a menacing look and I'm holding a firearm........I scream gang banger. How much safer am I holding up a ccp badge and id?

Any answer?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Do you know what a cop is going to do if he rolls up and your holding a gun and a badge?

He's going to tell you in no uncertain terms to drop the gun and get down on the ground.


Do you what he's going to do if he rolls up and your holding a gun and NO badge?

He's going to tell you in no uncertain terms to drop the gun and get down on the ground.

Why? Because plain-clothed officers default to the authority of uniformed officers. In fact, part of the live fire training of our local PDs involves a pop-up target of a guy pointing a gun and holding a PD badge. Do you know what the right thing to do is? Shoot him. You know why? Because he's not complying, he's pointing a gun and you don't know him.

Guess who you are to that responding officer? Yep, you're that guy.

What keeps you from getting shot is COMPLIANCE, not a badge OF ANY KIND.

I've talked to a lot of officers. That badge means NOTHING.... Z-E-R-O.

The gun in your hand dictates that situation. Until that gun is under the control of the LEO nothing else matters. NOTHING.

[OldMarksman]

It [CCW badge] is 100 percent meaingless......BUT IT WORKS. It cannot get you in trouble for impersonation alone. You would have to say you are a cop or try to arrest someone after showing it.

You just might be right, and you just might be wrong. Impersonation laws vary by jurisdiction. As previously recommended, consult a qualified local attorney. Let us know what he says for Florida.

You are simply showing proper id which in this case will keep you from getting shot by mistake from a good guy.

Could be, but I really don't think a "CCW badge" constitutes "proper ID" in any way. Anyone can get one and to my knowledge, they have no legal significance. Your driver's license and CCW card are proper ID but holding them up in a gunfight can only distract and confuse.

I'm a bald shaved Hispanic male with a menacing look and I'm holding a firearm........I scream gang banger. How much safer am I holding up a ccp badge and id?

I should certainly hope that neither your hairline (or lack of it), nor your being Hispanic, would raise any concerns among decent officers at all, unless you happen to fit the description of someone they are looking for at the time. As for having a "menacing look" and "screaming gangbanger", perhaps you can do something about it.

Every week some of us get together to discuss the news of the day, and police encounters often come up. The group includes an attorney and current and former police officers, some of whom spend a lot of time in various parts of Florida. One is a bald shaved Hispanic officer (who has a friendly expression). All but one are licensed to carry. I'll find out what they say.

However, peetzakilla's input would seem to make all of that moot.

[Ticman]

Because plain-clothed officers default to the authority of uniformed officers.

I ask my cousin who is a plain-clothed detective and he nearly quoted that line exactly. Even though my cousin out ranks the uniformed officers, until the scene is secure he "complies" with them.

[ZeSpectre]

I ask my cousin who is a plain-clothed detective and he nearly quoted that line exactly. Even though my cousin out ranks the uniformed officers, until the scene is secure he "complies" with them.

Crisis 101

You never, EVER, argue with the officer on the scene ESPECIALLY when said officer has a drawn weapon.

[Glenn Dee]

<----- GIVES UP...

[threegun]

I should certainly hope that neither your hairline (or lack of it), nor your being Hispanic, would raise any concerns among decent officers at all,

I have always been treated with respect and decency by law enforcement. Still if I rolled up on the scene with a guy looking like me holding a gun on someone.....well lets just say I could understand someone prejudging me. Especially in a life and death, adrenalin charged, spur of the moment, do or die, kill or be killed, shoot and save the victim, don't shoot and the bald gang banger lookalike kills victim, scenario.

What keeps you from getting shot is COMPLIANCE, not a badge OF ANY KIND.

I've talked to a lot of officers. That badge means NOTHING.... Z-E-R-O.

You look a bit crazy yourself Peetza might want to get one. However if a badge means nothing "zero" officers wouldn't use it. It does make officers pause and I too have asked many officers.

If my life is going to be risked on an officers discretion I certainly want every available advantage in my favor. The vast majority are certainly capable of making proper decisions however some are simply iffy. Perhaps a fellow cwp holder seeing only half the incident would be retarded from shooting by the badge.

I can say with confidence that the badge will reduce even further your chances of getting shot at when combined with compliance. Officers use if for a reason and thats the bottom line. Humans make mistakes and I want to make sure their mistake doesn't cost me my life.

[Brian Pfleuger]

However if a badge means nothing "zero" officers wouldn't use it. It does make officers pause and I too have asked many officers.

Officers use a badge to identify themselves to criminals and civilians. Plain clothes officers DO NOT use a badge to identify themselves to other officers in a shootout.

Your compliance it what keeps you from getting shot. Imagine flashing that badge and then turning toward that officer with your gun. Do you think that you'd still be standing? If not, what did the badge do for you? What dictated that situation? The gun dictates the situation. Nothing else. The badge is meaningless. The gun will ALWAYS dictate that situation. What you do with the gun is what matters.

If you were a law enforcement officer responding to a known shots fired scenario can you honestly say that you'd give the first thought toward that badge? A badge that ANYONE can buy. It could literally be a badge from a box of cracker jacks! It tells you, me and certainly any responding officer NOTHING about "friend-or-foe" status of the person holding it.

There's a person laying on the ground, apparently deceased. Nearby, or directly over them, with a gun drawn is another unknown person. That unknown person is flashing a badge at you. What does that badge tell you? Nothing.

[MarineCorpsAT]

I can say with confidence that the badge will reduce even further your chances of getting shot at when combined with compliance. Officers use if for a reason and thats the bottom line. Humans make mistakes and I want to make sure their mistake doesn't cost me my life

.

How canyou prove this to be true?

A CCW badge does NOT identify you as a good guy it identifies you as a person with some kind of badge. Upon further investigation it will identify you as a person with very poor judgement.

The officer is not going to see some badge he is going to see the gun in your hand that can possibly kill him. Until that gun is taken care of he is not interested in any other issue. You say that your goal with the badge is notto get shot, an officers goal when seeing a gun is the exact same thing so he is not looking at the dude with the badge he is looking at the dude with the gun holding a shiny object.

The manufacturer of these badges has sold you a bill of goods that you have baught into hook line and sinker. So tell me what happens when you are waving your badge around and you do get shot? You going after this company?

These badges only seem to appeal to a segment of the population that feels the need to advertise that they are carrying a gun, trying to be tacticool, law enforcement wannabes, or mall ninjas.

I personally feel that those that have these badges and rely on them as part of their CCW identification even after hearing LEO's post on this forum that it is a bad idea have poor judgement and I would question if they have the judgement to be carrying a firearm.

[dec41971]

Are these shields required in Florida for CCW? I thought CCWs were licenses or piece of paper identifying you and not some badge. At least where I live its a cheap looking paper at that.
I'd stay away from badges and as for gun fights, I have seen enough TV news of tragic mistaken identity where cop shots cop to know better. Unless he is down and dude about to blow his brains out, I am staying out of it. If its a physical confrontation, then I am more willing to assist if hes getting his ass kicked.

[BobR]

Get yourself one of these:



And one of these to go with it:



Then when you turn and face a unifomed cop and point your gun at him he will have better visibilty of you when he shoots you.



I don't care what you have to ID yourself as a "CCW" holder, it doesn't matter, if you can get it so can everyone else.

Compliance is your only chance at not getting shot in the scenario that has been painted here.

bob

[DETH_LIVES]

I love that pic..I want to be a Hall Monitor

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/76923


+1 Do what the officer tells you to do.....

[Glenn Dee]

Police have shields, or stars... everyone else has a badge.