Red dot, vs prizm, vs lvpo video

Shadow9mm · December 21, 2023, 08:44 AM

Found this video. Has me re-thinking my optics options. Really good explanation, demonstration, and practical comparison of red dots, prizm scopes, and lvpo.

https://youtu.be/lL3MJvmDmvE?feature=shared

Im going to really have to do some thinking on this, brought up a lot of questions fore both on optics choice and training. I definitely feel a red dot is a good step up from iron sights. But for practical defensive use off of a flat range, it really seems like magnification is a huge bonus, almost something you have to have

What are your thoughts? Are irons or just a red dot really enough?

Staff: Not sure if this would be best here or in tactics/training, or gear/accessories. My thinking was that this was mostly a optics choice for semi auto rifle type question, but it does cover gear, and training to some degree. Feel free to move it if you feel it is more appropriate in another section.

imashooter · December 21, 2023, 09:12 AM

I have pretty much put aside red dots for prisms. I appreciate LPVOs for given scenarios but day to day, I like the prisms. I currently have a 1x, 2.5X, 3X. Several red dots remain and likely will as I see no need in additional spending. I have a few irons which I hope never go away in the AR world. Kind of like putting on those old, beyond comfortable, pair of boots.

seanc · December 21, 2023, 01:43 PM

For my home defense rifle, I'm sticking with a red dot. At in-house distances, I think red dots are the best, day or night.

I'm not calling out the guy from the video. I assume he knows what he's talking about and is just using gameplay video for demonstration, not proof. I also assume, he actually practices in real life and knows what works for him. I agree with everything he says and the graphs he shows at the end. He's right that outside the home, an LPVO is probably the best compromise.

I was having fun with my LPVO and really digging the accuracy of my rifle and being able to really reach out and touch with it (at the range) out to 200 yards. My LPVO has a fine illuminated dot which was great at long range and seemed great at 1x close range too. Then, I realized that my most likely, if EVER, use will be at night and at close range at home, so I put my red dot back on my carbine. This works for me...for now. I've gone back and forth with the red dot/LPVO. If there's ever a future need outside the home, I can put the LPVO back on then (quick connect bases)

I'm not a big gamer, but when I do play (Rainbow 6 Las Vegas), my primary loadout is an LPVO AK and I'm sniping guys throughout. I rock! But that isn't real life. It seems there's too many people training in COD/Modern Warfare and think that'll be their perfect loadout. I am pretty good off hand and practice at the range. In real life. I know that off hand, I can keep a 3-4" group at 100 yards with a red dot. I practice. I can't do as well off hand with my LPVO beyond 1x. It goes to crap at 6x off hand. I also see other people at the range try off hand and can't hit the broad side of a barn, LPVO or red dot, but it's much harder with an LPVO. That's real life.

rickyrick · December 21, 2023, 02:23 PM

I’m a big fan of the vortex holographic sight. It’s a bit power hungry, but it takes common surefire batteries instead of random button cells.
I like that it cooperates with prescription glasses.

Shadow9mm · December 21, 2023, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seanc

For my home defense rifle, I'm sticking with a red dot. At in-house distances, I think red dots are the best, day or night.

I'm not calling out the guy from the video. I assume he knows what he's talking about and is just using gameplay video for demonstration, not proof. I also assume, he actually practices in real life and knows what works for him. I agree with everything he says and the graphs he shows at the end. He's right that outside the home, an LPVO is probably the best compromise.

I was having fun with my LPVO and really digging the accuracy of my rifle and being able to really reach out and touch with it (at the range) out to 200 yards. My LPVO has a fine illuminated dot which was great at long range and seemed great at 1x close range too. Then, I realized that my most likely, if EVER, use will be at night and at close range at home, so I put my red dot back on my carbine. This works for me...for now. I've gone back and forth with the red dot/LPVO. If there's ever a future need outside the home, I can put the LPVO back on then (quick connect bases)

I'm not a big gamer, but when I do play (Rainbow 6 Las Vegas), my primary loadout is an LPVO AK and I'm sniping guys throughout. I rock! But that isn't real life. It seems there's too many people training in COD/Modern Warfare and think that'll be their perfect loadout. I am pretty good off hand and practice at the range. In real life. I know that off hand, I can keep a 3-4" group at 100 yards with a red dot. I practice. I can't do as well off hand with my LPVO beyond 1x. It goes to crap at 6x off hand. I also see other people at the range try off hand and can't hit the broad side of a barn, LPVO or red dot, but it's much harder with an LPVO. That's real life.

You make a good point, as a dedicated home defense room clearing gun, red dot is probably best. As soon as you step outside, lvpo.

rc · December 22, 2023, 11:35 AM

I think a lot of factors dictate which is best including caliber, distance of typical use, durability and your current eye sight. As we age, things change. At 12 hitting a 12 oz can at 100 yards open sight might be relatively easy. At 50 that might be a lot more of a challenge.

Scopes are going to be the most precise and give you best accuracy at the longest range but are slowest on target.

Standard Notch and Post sights are going to be the least cluttered, most durable option but limited by your natural eye sight.

Peep sights are a step up, but when you get old, the small peeps are just going to get too blurry so a ghost ring is required.

Red Dots are a good alternative to iron sights with fast target acquisition but they are less reliable and not as compact as irons.

LVPOs are a compromise and may not do anything best but on an AR an LVPO will be the most versatile because the guns are capable of shooting out to hundreds of yards but when are you going to need that capability for self defense? Would a 3-9 be a better choice? If you only plan to shoot to 50, a red dot will do, but don't expect small groups especially with larger red dots.

On a pistol, it's hard to beat iron sights for carry and snag free draw. RMRs are not for the guy who will buy a gun and sticks it in a drawer for 50 years as life goes on but a lot of people have them to be cool and if you use them regularly and change out the batteries they could sure be handy in low light HD situation but so could a laser/light mounted on a rail. In most HD cases a light beam will be sufficient to point your weapon and hit effectively across a room. At that distance you aren't going to be looking at your sights, just the eyes and hands of the person trying to do you harm.

I think red dots are most useful on something like a 9mm carbine used for home defense and around a rural property where you are more likely to need a long gun to deal with chicken thieves. The 5.56 is just too loud for inside a home in my opinion and has too much range for self defense outside a home. Indoors a shotgun, PCC or Handgun are probably going to be your better options for HD and therefore Red Dots. For your AR, the LVPO will be a better option to allow you to take advantage of the rifle's accuracy at range while still being able to dial it back for close work where it really isn't your best option over something like a 12 gauge.

rickyrick · December 22, 2023, 12:30 PM

Good points.
I was not a red dot man when I lived in west Texas, I preferred 3-9 scopes.

Now that I live in East Texas and 99% of my property is dense forest, except for the acre immediately around my house, I have adopted the holographic sight on my everyday carbine. I’ve also switched to 300bo for the go to gun.
I’ve been considering a 9mm PCC of some type instead of rifle cartridges.

labnoti · December 22, 2023, 07:14 PM

I watched the video with interest. The first part was lame, but they got to some meat further in and I think their analysis was both fair and reasonably sophisticated.
I recently assembled a folding Mini-14 with a pistol-style reflex (red dot) sight. After I found out it is accurate (contrary to all the internet rhetoric), like 1.5 MOA with LC WWB, and I became determined to reload for potentially even more accuracy, I was rethinking my choices. I could have kept it in the factory synthetic stock and put a 2-10 or 3-12X optic on there -- I used 1-5X LPVO to test accuracy but never intended to keep it on there. But I don't like Minis with big optics and fixed stocks. I conceived the build as more of a PDW-style gun. I might have done it as an SBR in 300 with a muffler if that wasn't so onerous and expensive to accomplish.

So I do see the value of a magnified optic like an LPVO, maybe a 1-8 VCOG or one of the newer 2-10X Leupold Mark 5's, but that just about doubles the cost and adds almost two pounds. Cheaper and lighter optics aren't as good or durable. If I were to go to 2-10, it would be good to have an RMR on the side also. I could put a PEQ-15 on the rail and a light and after all that, I wouldn't want it to be a Mini-14 or AR-15 at that point. I'd go M1A or AR-10. Maybe I'd try out a SFAR or one of those SIG things. No matter, when you start adding more and more to a lightweight rifle, there's less and less advantage to it being chambered in 556.

If I had another $5K, I could do another build with more optical power. That would include the rifle, the optics (dot and scope), the ammo, and so on. I doubt I'd be able to get a PEQ-15 in under that budget. The video makes the case that you don't need another rifle, just another upper. But the expense isn't in the lower. It's in the barrel and the optics, and that's also where the weight is.

December 21, 2023, 08:44 AM	#1
Shadow9mm Senior Member Join Date: March 21, 2012 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 3,977	Red dot, vs prizm, vs lvpo video Found this video. Has me re-thinking my optics options. Really good explanation, demonstration, and practical comparison of red dots, prizm scopes, and lvpo. https://youtu.be/lL3MJvmDmvE?feature=shared Im going to really have to do some thinking on this, brought up a lot of questions fore both on optics choice and training. I definitely feel a red dot is a good step up from iron sights. But for practical defensive use off of a flat range, it really seems like magnification is a huge bonus, almost something you have to have What are your thoughts? Are irons or just a red dot really enough? Staff: Not sure if this would be best here or in tactics/training, or gear/accessories. My thinking was that this was mostly a optics choice for semi auto rifle type question, but it does cover gear, and training to some degree. Feel free to move it if you feel it is more appropriate in another section. __________________ I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.

December 21, 2023, 02:23 PM	#4
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	I’m a big fan of the vortex holographic sight. It’s a bit power hungry, but it takes common surefire batteries instead of random button cells. I like that it cooperates with prescription glasses. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

December 22, 2023, 12:30 PM	#7
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Good points. I was not a red dot man when I lived in west Texas, I preferred 3-9 scopes. Now that I live in East Texas and 99% of my property is dense forest, except for the acre immediately around my house, I have adopted the holographic sight on my everyday carbine. I’ve also switched to 300bo for the go to gun. I’ve been considering a 9mm PCC of some type instead of rifle cartridges. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

December 21, 2023, 09:12 AM	#2
imashooter Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2013 Location: Alabama Posts: 396	I have pretty much put aside red dots for prisms. I appreciate LPVOs for given scenarios but day to day, I like the prisms. I currently have a 1x, 2.5X, 3X. Several red dots remain and likely will as I see no need in additional spending. I have a few irons which I hope never go away in the AR world. Kind of like putting on those old, beyond comfortable, pair of boots.

December 21, 2023, 01:43 PM	#3
seanc Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 1998 Posts: 590	For my home defense rifle, I'm sticking with a red dot. At in-house distances, I think red dots are the best, day or night. I'm not calling out the guy from the video. I assume he knows what he's talking about and is just using gameplay video for demonstration, not proof. I also assume, he actually practices in real life and knows what works for him. I agree with everything he says and the graphs he shows at the end. He's right that outside the home, an LPVO is probably the best compromise. I was having fun with my LPVO and really digging the accuracy of my rifle and being able to really reach out and touch with it (at the range) out to 200 yards. My LPVO has a fine illuminated dot which was great at long range and seemed great at 1x close range too. Then, I realized that my most likely, if EVER, use will be at night and at close range at home, so I put my red dot back on my carbine. This works for me...for now. I've gone back and forth with the red dot/LPVO. If there's ever a future need outside the home, I can put the LPVO back on then (quick connect bases) I'm not a big gamer, but when I do play (Rainbow 6 Las Vegas), my primary loadout is an LPVO AK and I'm sniping guys throughout. I rock! But that isn't real life. It seems there's too many people training in COD/Modern Warfare and think that'll be their perfect loadout. I am pretty good off hand and practice at the range. In real life. I know that off hand, I can keep a 3-4" group at 100 yards with a red dot. I practice. I can't do as well off hand with my LPVO beyond 1x. It goes to crap at 6x off hand. I also see other people at the range try off hand and can't hit the broad side of a barn, LPVO or red dot, but it's much harder with an LPVO. That's real life.

December 22, 2023, 11:35 AM	#6
rc Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2001 Location: CA Posts: 1,769	I think a lot of factors dictate which is best including caliber, distance of typical use, durability and your current eye sight. As we age, things change. At 12 hitting a 12 oz can at 100 yards open sight might be relatively easy. At 50 that might be a lot more of a challenge. Scopes are going to be the most precise and give you best accuracy at the longest range but are slowest on target. Standard Notch and Post sights are going to be the least cluttered, most durable option but limited by your natural eye sight. Peep sights are a step up, but when you get old, the small peeps are just going to get too blurry so a ghost ring is required. Red Dots are a good alternative to iron sights with fast target acquisition but they are less reliable and not as compact as irons. LVPOs are a compromise and may not do anything best but on an AR an LVPO will be the most versatile because the guns are capable of shooting out to hundreds of yards but when are you going to need that capability for self defense? Would a 3-9 be a better choice? If you only plan to shoot to 50, a red dot will do, but don't expect small groups especially with larger red dots. On a pistol, it's hard to beat iron sights for carry and snag free draw. RMRs are not for the guy who will buy a gun and sticks it in a drawer for 50 years as life goes on but a lot of people have them to be cool and if you use them regularly and change out the batteries they could sure be handy in low light HD situation but so could a laser/light mounted on a rail. In most HD cases a light beam will be sufficient to point your weapon and hit effectively across a room. At that distance you aren't going to be looking at your sights, just the eyes and hands of the person trying to do you harm. I think red dots are most useful on something like a 9mm carbine used for home defense and around a rural property where you are more likely to need a long gun to deal with chicken thieves. The 5.56 is just too loud for inside a home in my opinion and has too much range for self defense outside a home. Indoors a shotgun, PCC or Handgun are probably going to be your better options for HD and therefore Red Dots. For your AR, the LVPO will be a better option to allow you to take advantage of the rifle's accuracy at range while still being able to dial it back for close work where it really isn't your best option over something like a 12 gauge.

December 22, 2023, 07:14 PM	#8
labnoti Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2018 Posts: 252	I watched the video with interest. The first part was lame, but they got to some meat further in and I think their analysis was both fair and reasonably sophisticated. I recently assembled a folding Mini-14 with a pistol-style reflex (red dot) sight. After I found out it is accurate (contrary to all the internet rhetoric), like 1.5 MOA with LC WWB, and I became determined to reload for potentially even more accuracy, I was rethinking my choices. I could have kept it in the factory synthetic stock and put a 2-10 or 3-12X optic on there -- I used 1-5X LPVO to test accuracy but never intended to keep it on there. But I don't like Minis with big optics and fixed stocks. I conceived the build as more of a PDW-style gun. I might have done it as an SBR in 300 with a muffler if that wasn't so onerous and expensive to accomplish. So I do see the value of a magnified optic like an LPVO, maybe a 1-8 VCOG or one of the newer 2-10X Leupold Mark 5's, but that just about doubles the cost and adds almost two pounds. Cheaper and lighter optics aren't as good or durable. If I were to go to 2-10, it would be good to have an RMR on the side also. I could put a PEQ-15 on the rail and a light and after all that, I wouldn't want it to be a Mini-14 or AR-15 at that point. I'd go M1A or AR-10. Maybe I'd try out a SFAR or one of those SIG things. No matter, when you start adding more and more to a lightweight rifle, there's less and less advantage to it being chambered in 556. If I had another $5K, I could do another build with more optical power. That would include the rifle, the optics (dot and scope), the ammo, and so on. I doubt I'd be able to get a PEQ-15 in under that budget. The video makes the case that you don't need another rifle, just another upper. But the expense isn't in the lower. It's in the barrel and the optics, and that's also where the weight is.