Help a novice get the right start on getting the right AR

[SEKLEM]

Originally Posted by 101combatvet

http://www.colt.com/Catalog/Rifles/Expanse™M4.aspx

Brick wall here. It looks like a nice rifle and a nice price but I cannot find any place that sells it. Slickguns returns no results, same with gunbroker. Lipsey's has it in their catelog but requires contacting a dealer.

[marine6680]

It's not a mid gas either...

Have you figured out a budget, or at least a max?

[SEKLEM]

I really don't want to spend over a grand. I know makes it difficult.

I'm wondering if the Ruger AR-556 is a good springboard for me. I could always change out the BCG and barrel later. But to start with it seems like it has the appeal.

How difficult is it to remove the A2 front sight and put a little picatinny rail to cover up the gas block up there?

[marine6680]

Not sure on the Ruger, it's got a few parts that are not standard... Like the front sight block and handguard retention.

If you want to spend less than a grand, I suggest PSA... You can go as low as $400ish to $800ish for one of theirs.

The cheapest BCM upper costs about $550, their lowers cost $400.

You can mix and match as well, BCM upper and PSA lower.

Many options available. Spikes tactical is another good mid range AR as well. Well built like the premium PSAs.

[Freethought]

I'll get flamed for this , don't much care though.


Stay away from low end junk , i.e. DPMS , Bushmaster and certain others. LMT , Larue ,Daniel Defense , Noveske etc may cost you more initially but you'll end up with a better rifle in the long run.

Palmetto , Anderson ,Windham some of the Spikes offerings etc are worth looking into. You might want to just buy a completed rifle first time out.

[Llama Bob]

I wouldn't recommend building an AR if it doesn't really excite you.

In terms of what to buy there are so many variables it's hard to know where to start. I suppose the first question is whether you intend to use optics or iron sights, or some combination of both. That will help determine what kind of upper you need.

Then you need to think about what loads you want to shoot and what your practical accuracy needs are. That will help nail down barrel type and twist rate and depending on accuracy requirements may help select a manufacturer and what kind of trigger group makes sense.

Then you need to think about hanguard vs. forearm rails vs. monolithic uppers (which are probably not in your budget). Your decision there will shrink the field further.

[Chainsaw.]

BUILD! A few basic tools and a couple of special tools and your gtg. Get the parts you want. Watch Iraqveteran8888 assembly videos a couple times and youll see its pretty easy. Borrow a torque wrench if you have to. Take your time.

[sils79]

+1 for build. My first AR was a stag model 2, I really like the gun, but ended up changing out several parts to get the gun I wanted. My second gun was an Aeroprecision based build, I was able to get all the pieces that I want and a custom drop in trigger for about the same price as that Stag before I modded it.

Find what you want, take your time with sales and you can easily build for cheaper than a complete rifle.

[Capt Rick Hiott]

I just bought my first AR for hunting hogs and deer and this is what I have so far.....

1. What company? Tromix upper, PSA lower


2. Barrel Length? SCM18" http://www.tromix.com/458-socom-parts-1.html


3. Caliber? .458


4. What do you hunt? Hogs, Deer


5. Optics? Leupold VX•R 1.25-4x20mm


6. Primary shot distances? 0-150 yards


7. Any other things...Once you get started with the "AR",,,you cant stop!!

[101combatvet]

Brick wall here. It looks like a nice rifle and a nice price but I cannot find any place that sells it. Slickguns returns no results, same with gunbroker. Lipsey's has it in their catelog but requires contacting a dealer.

Call Colt and ask their distribution department who got the last patch.

[SEKLEM]

I'm not going to bother quoting, but I'll try to address each post that followed my last.

@marine6680 I had noticed the hand guard retention color was plastic instead of aluminum and it looks tacky/cheap. I figured this might be replaceable. Further investigation is required.

PSA parts availability is slim right now. I may have to wait a while before coming back to that. I stopped into a LGS and looked at a Spikes Tactical upper w/ floating quad rail and a BCM lower w/ a stage 2 drop in and the sum was just over $1100. It was a nice rig, but hard to justify the cost right now and I haven't compared that to street prices (online prices).

@Freethought Yeah, I came to the same conclusion after talking to a few people here and elsewhere, at least as it regards to Bushmaster and DPMS. It gets tricky to know what certain others can be regarded in the same vain as Bushy and DPMS when they haven't been in the business long enough to establish such a reputation.

@Llama Bob I'm not totally enamored with doing a build, but then I'm not apposed to it either. I often see people say "build the rifle you want" then those same people go on to say what rifle they would build with your money. It doesn't necessarily mean it will meet my requirements or be what I would like exactly. It's not to dissimilar from someone recommending a motorcycle to someone who's never owned a bike, but has ridden one once or twice. In terms of trigger, I'm not sure what I would like. The rest seems to be something I can pretty much figure out. I just don't want to make expensive choices that ultimately disappoint me.

@Chainsaw I've watched some of his videos, very informative. I will look for the AR build ones in the near future. Thank you.

@sils79 Your situation is a good example of why I ponder getting a prebuilt one first, to figure out what I like and don't like. But at the same time it would appear I could pretty much build everything to what I would like and want and ultimately the only part that would be tricky would be which trigger to choose.

@Captain Rick Hiott Well I don't hunt, and it's not something I've considered a factor for this potential rifle. It's probably something I should consider, but I'm more interested in what is considered a CQB rifle chambered in 5.56/.223, light and maneuverable.

@101combatvet Thank you for that. I will look into it.

What follows is a general response.

So after visiting the LGS and talking with them I think it would be wise to just return the optic (EOTech 512.A65 for those who didn't read the entire thread) to the manufacturer as the issues that apparently these units have aren't just an occasional malfunction, but rather a design flaw that is present in all the units they have made. Also given the momentary shortage of AR parts and potential for temporarily inflated prices when this stuff starts pouring back into the market this may not be the best time to pursue this endeavor. None the less the information here has been very useful and will be applied when the time is right. I'll just put the money I receive from the return of the EOTech away to go toward an AR (build or not).

A very big thank you to all who have shared their experience and help.

[Freethought]

Get on Gunbroker and take a look at the Windhams , Daniel Defense and the LMT Defender 2000 offerings. You'll be quite happy with any of 'em.

The other LMT stuff ( think Mono) Larue and Noveske , BCM , LWRC and Knights will be more than you likely wish to invest.


I could go into the variety of problems I've observed and/or fixed as regards DPMS and Bushmaster along with certain other low end offerings. No sense in buying a 500 or 600 dollar AR if costs you that amount over again to make it run right.

This is akin to folks buying a 400 dollar 1911 and then ending up with 500 dollars worth of Ed Brown , Wilson , Colt and Springfield parts in it.

[marine6680]

The BMC uppers are still well priced for a higher end build, and seem to be in stock.

The problem is free floating adds about $100 to the price... $650 for one of their KMR Alpha uppers and their standard 16in mid gas barrel, including the BCG and charging handle. Which is an excellent price BTW.

A basic upper with a FSB and using standard plastic hand guards is about $580...


How is PSA for lower availability? If they have them in stock, they are $200 and under.

If you go that route, you can get a good setup for under $900, free float and all.

[Kwikvette]

I'll throw in my 2 cents;

If you haven't been shooting for precision long, chances are any AR you purchase will be more accurate than you are.

To help clarify whether you should build or buy a factory rifle, keep in mind that a factory-built rifle will have better resale value than one you build. So if you want some resale value buy one already built.

For a novice, I normally suggest a S&W MP15 or a Colt 6920. Both are affordable, reliable, and get the job done.

If you plan on keeping your rifle and want to learn a great deal, go ahead and build one and we'll teach you along the way!

[Llama Bob]

In terms of triggers, there's basically 3 options:

• Mill-spec triggers that will be 5.5 lbs+. These will probably negatively affect accuracy slightly, but are very safe.
  
• Enhanced triggers like the Timney, Rock River, and Geissele SSA. These come in both single stage and dual stage variants and are much crisper and get you down in the 4lb range.
  
• Seriously light triggers like the Geissele DMR trigger. These are all, AFAIK, dual stage and get you into the sub-4lb range with a 2nd stage that may be < 1lb.

For a home defense rifle, I would probably try to find a gun with a 4lb+ stock trigger you can live with, although it's not a requirement by any means.

I forgot to mention this in my first post, buy you should also think about stock type. The most common choices are collapsible options, A2 fixed stocks, and custom adjustable fixed stocks. Since I don't wear body armor and am bigger than the average guy, I find adjustable fixed stocks shoot the best for me. You may have different needs though.

[Llama Bob]

Oh, I would also go with a 1:8 twist barrel or faster. Overall ammo is getting heavier and longer for improved exterior and terminal ballistics. That means you want a faster twist rate.

[Freethought]

I concur with LlamaBob on the twist rate and trigger factors. Me , well my ARs are all what most folks term high end , but then again I have my reasons for that.

[2ndsojourn]

From SEKLEM:

" I forgot about investment value."


Forget investment value. They'll all lose value. There are probably a couple that hold some value better than others (ie: Colt, Ruger), but once they're used, you'll probably never recover your cost (unless there's another panic buy when Hillary wins the election).

[stagpanther]

I have very fond memories of How "bad" my DPMS sportical was--the cheapest AR in their stable. Could group MOA with ease. Never choked once on any ammo--even imported metal stuff which invalidated the warranty. Hated that thing--never gave me any reason to fuss with or fix it. : )

[SEKLEM]

@stagpanther You're just seething sarcasm aren't you.

@2ndsojourn Fair, I realize it's not easy to pick a winner in terms of potential resale. If it gets really bad it won't matter what kind of AR you have as long as it is reliable.

@Llama Bob A 1:8 heavy forged chrome lined barrel in 18" of length is what was recommended to me by someone who generally knows much more about this than me. I told him what I wanted to do with it and that was his recommendation.

Thank you for the breakdown on triggers. That is helpful.

@Kwikvette The Bushmaster was the first AR I had ever fired and only fired maybe 200 rounds through it. It was thoroughly frustrating because the stock was not the correct size. I believe it was a milspec buffer tube with a commercial stock or perhaps the other way around, either way it collapsed every time I fired a shot. Essentially it wasn't worth firing until that was remedied. Before I could get around to doing that I traded it in favor of a pistol I was lusting after. So my experience may as well be null.

@Freethought I'll try to get on there and look at Windham as I've heard good things and I know a friend of mine is seriously considering their line.

[Chainsaw.]

Keep us posted on what you ever decide on, welcome to your new addiction.

[SEKLEM]

@Chainsaw. It's an affliction to be sure.

[Llama Bob]

I would put some more thought into your barrel choice. That one doesn't make much sense to me.

- longer barrels (longer than 14.5"+pinned muzzle device or 16" unpinned) are purely for velocity. That's really only useful for long range. Terminal performance with civilian bullet options isn't really affected. The downside is weight and handiness.

- heavy barrels help accuracy and rapid fire capability at the expense of weight

- chrome lined barrels, as opposed to stainless match barrels, increase barrel life at the cost of accuracy and as such only make sense on guns where accuracy is not the priority.

Point being, you've got a schizophrenic barrel plan. Two accuracy/long range features combined with an anti-accuracy feature.

IMO 14.5-16" light profile chrome lined barrels make sense for short range social work guns. 16" heavy profile stainless match barrels make sense for accurate guns where you don't care about the last iota of velocity. Longer HBAR stainless match barrels make sense when you do care about velocity. But long, heavy chrome barrels don't make a lot of sense.

[Kwikvette]

LLama Bob, I agree with every point except the part about accuracy on a chrome-lined barrel; my Noveske Rogue Hunter (SS) never shot better than my Light Recce (chrome-lined) and both achieved sub-moa.

Got rid of the rogue hunter for profit and kept my Light Recce which I'm in the process of selling just because I don't shoot it anymore.

[marine6680]

My PSA CHF chrome lined, and both of my BCM CHF chrome lined barrels shoot 1moa with quality ammo...

A good chrome lined barrel can shoot very well, not as good as a good stainless or carbon steel barrel, but better than most can use.