The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The North Corral > Curios and Relics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old October 12, 2013, 10:50 PM   #1
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
ballester molina m1938

so until yesterday I didn't know these things existed. apparently it was a 1911 copycat made for the Argentine government. it is interesting in that it is listed as 11.25mm like the norwegian 1914(another 1911 copycat which is my grail gun) but also in that it does not have a grip safety, just the thumb safety. this gun is about the usual C&R piece that I run across, about 60% metal finish, rotten wood grip panels, and barrel shot out and magazine is shot but all parts matching, and no rust or pitting to speak of. apparently this gun was made between 1942 and 1944 for the Argentine Army. I about had to resort to fisticuffs with my little brother and he won out and bought it first but from what I have seen, it is a decent shooter(although the trigger is a bit mushy for 1911s and the sights are terrible). any reason why there isn't much talk of them going around?
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
tahunua001 is offline  
Old October 12, 2013, 11:24 PM   #2
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,966
It's basically a Star copy, not 1911.
1911 barrels will fit as will magazines. Replacement grips are available.
The Ballester is an extremely well made gun.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old October 13, 2013, 12:01 AM   #3
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
actually, all 1911 mags will not fit. we went to two stores trying everything from ruger to wilson combat mags, nothing worked. interestingly enough, my el cheapo 15 round Pmag fits it like a glove and hasn't performed too bad so far.

we noticed that a number of them only insert halfway unless you hold the mag release while inserting.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
tahunua001 is offline  
Old October 13, 2013, 01:20 AM   #4
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,966
Mine has a 1911 MecGar that works just fine.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old October 13, 2013, 07:52 AM   #5
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
This is amazing!

I brought one home from the Virginia Beach Gun Show yesterday of the exact description you gave.

SN 19XXX (So I think that puts in I 1943.) in .45ACP. About 60% finish. Mine is nice and tight. Bore is good. I bought 1911 Govt. magazines for 10.00 at the show and they work like a champ.

It appears to me that 1911 grips will not work on this pistol because of the location of the screw holes in the frame. The right honorable Mr. Deshivs reported that grips are available and I can verify that from my extremely limited experience. Anywhere from 15.00 to 25.00.

I made a trade for mine and a Colt .38 DA from early in the last century in exchange for a converted Trapdoor. I don't know which of us came out on top, but I am very pleased with the two pistols I got. (I have two other Trapdoor saddle ring carbines and no matter how hard I try I can't shoot all three at once.)
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 13, 2013, 11:13 AM   #6
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
Quote:
I have two other Trapdoor saddle ring carbines and no matter how hard I try I can't shoot all three at once
challenge accepted!
haha, this one is in the 18XXX range.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
tahunua001 is offline  
Old October 16, 2013, 11:24 AM   #7
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Quote:
any reason why there isn't much talk of them going around?
Basically because there aren't a lot of them going around, anymore. Different batches of them were imported and sold over the last 40 years or so.

They have always been considered a "cheap gun". Not shoddy made, just not worth much in the US market. I think they used to sell for half or maybe 2/3 of what a surplus US 1911A1 sold for.

NOT a copy of the 1911, as noted. Some mags will work (USGI spec 7rnd has the best chance). 1911 barrels can work, may be drop in fit, may need fitting, individual guns vary some. Other 1911A1 parts do not fit (maybe the stock GI rear sight, not sure.)

The best Argentines say "sistema Colt" and are license copies of the 1911A1. The most commonly found sistema colt is the 1927 model. I have one of these, and aside from the markings its exactly like a commercial Colt Govt model of that era.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 16, 2013, 12:07 PM   #8
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
I put on my asbestos undies for this one, but IMHO, the Star safety system used in the Ballester-Molina is superior to that of the Colt. The Colt safety blocks the sear, but requires careful adherence to specs and/or careful fitting. And if the cocked and locked gun is dropped on the hammer, both hammer and sear will be destroyed.

The Star system, on the other hand, cams the hammer back off the sear and blocks it. If the hammer is struck, it is blocked by a good size piece of steel, not by the fragile sear and sear notch.

Further, with the hammer pinned so it pivots rather than being loose in the frame, the situation where trigger inertia will drop the hammer when the slide is released simply does not happen. Because of the different systems, a grip safety was not considered necessary. (Of course, JMB didn't think it necessary either, and it really doesn't do what it was supposed to do, but that is another subject.)

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 16, 2013, 12:30 PM   #9
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
the cherubs polishing parts at the feet of St Browning look up to see him writing "james k" in his ledger......
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 16, 2013, 12:43 PM   #10
Bill DeShivs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 7, 2006
Posts: 10,966
James K-
You are absolutely correct about the safety.
__________________
Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler
www.billdeshivs.com
Bill DeShivs is offline  
Old October 16, 2013, 01:01 PM   #11
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
While the Star type safety used on the Ballester Molina and Ballester Rigaud pistols does block the hammer, it does not block the sear and, consequently, it is possbile for a lackadaisical person (they do exist) to pull the trigger when disengaging the safety, resulting in an AD as the hammer will fall and strike the firing pin.
gyvel is offline  
Old October 16, 2013, 08:17 PM   #12
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
Good point, but couldn't the same lackadaisical person accidentally pull the trigger while disengaging the safety on a 1911?
James K is offline  
Old October 18, 2013, 11:24 AM   #13
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
If you pull the trigger, its NOT an AD.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 20, 2013, 06:55 AM   #14
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
I will be having some non-accidental discharges of this pistol...

Heading out today to giver a try.

I am using the steel case rounds.

I'll let ya know.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 22, 2013, 05:26 PM   #15
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
BM shot very nicely....

Found out that the lower left grip screw is stripped. I'll five that when I get home.

Went through fifty rounds of the steel case ammunition from Tula. Not one hiccup.

Pistol seems accurate but I am just getting used to it.

The original grips on this pistol makes it look cheap.

I went looking for replacements but it appears that everything that is available is a dead ringer for the originals.

Prolly make my own.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 22, 2013, 05:27 PM   #16
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
Fixed the screw hole...

Retapped it for an American size screw and then made a screw from a spare one I had laying around.

Also worked on the grips today. Using walnut.

Details at eleven.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 22, 2013, 05:57 PM   #17
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
one of the screws on this one is ceased.
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
tahunua001 is offline  
Old October 22, 2013, 06:06 PM   #18
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
T,

Should not be too hard to get out.

There is only about an eighth inch of thread on them. You will almost certainly be redoing the threads anyway.

I just got done messing with mine and learned I will prolly be replacing the other three screws before long.

Here's some shots of the replacement grips







Also changed the lines just forward of the thumb safety.



Notice that I changed the top contour of the right grip. The original goes all the way up to the slide and is cut off straight. You can tell where it went by looking at the wear pattern on the side of the frame.


__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 22, 2013, 09:59 PM   #19
tahunua001
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 21, 2011
Location: Idaho
Posts: 7,839
perty... they kindof look out of place though with the worn metal... I guess it's time to take it to get reblued
__________________
ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar.
I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein
You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin
tahunua001 is offline  
Old October 23, 2013, 06:02 AM   #20
Doc Hoy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 24, 2008
Location: Naples, Fl
Posts: 5,440
You are completely correct....

They look like a ruby in a goat's A __ ___ as the pistol is right now.

I gotta get the grips screws worked out first.
__________________
Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.
Doc Hoy is offline  
Old October 23, 2013, 09:18 AM   #21
James K
Member In Memoriam
 
Join Date: March 17, 1999
Posts: 24,383
The grip screw holes in the frame can strip also, which is why the Army insisted that Browning put grip screw bushings in the 1911. The thread strain is shifted to the replaceable bushing so the frame is not ruined by messing up one grip screw.

Jim
James K is offline  
Old October 23, 2013, 02:16 PM   #22
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,675
Quote:
The grip screw holes in the frame can strip also, which is why the Army insisted that Browning put grip screw bushings in the 1911. The thread strain is shifted to the replaceable bushing so the frame is not ruined by messing up one grip screw.
And generally that works pretty well. Does not stop idiots from stripping out the bushings from the frame (that's a real pain to fix), but it does make it a lot less likely.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old October 23, 2013, 11:59 PM   #23
OcelotZ3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 20, 2008
Posts: 229
Yeah, one is slightly stripped in my ex-mil frame. What is the usual method to fix them?
OcelotZ3 is offline  
Old October 24, 2013, 12:44 AM   #24
gyvel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 30, 2009
Location: Northern AZ
Posts: 7,172
Yeah, one is slightly stripped in my ex-mil frame. What is the usual method to fix them?

(I assume you are talking about a 1911 frame.)

The best way is to use a low-temp solder and solder it in place.
gyvel is offline  
Old October 25, 2013, 06:55 PM   #25
lee n. field
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 12, 2002
Location: The same state as Mordor.
Posts: 5,567
Quote:
While the Star type safety used on the Ballester Molina and Ballester Rigaud pistols does block the hammer, it does not block the sear and, consequently, it is possbile for a lackadaisical person (they do exist) to pull the trigger when disengaging the safety, resulting in an AD as the hammer will fall and strike the firing pin.
My much more modern Star M-43 also does this. A Star peculiarity?
__________________
"As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. "
lee n. field is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11818 seconds with 8 queries