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Old June 2, 2007, 12:38 PM   #51
Corik Jasra
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I am not trying to get enmeshed in the debate as both sides have merits, but I do carry Fox Labs Five Point Three OC everywhere I go.

There are no guarantees but I really like options; and OC and a firearm give me more options than just popping a cap in an aggressive person.

Options like, I can spray them down with OC and then when they are writhing around on the ground, I can pop a cap in them (joking, joking)
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Old June 2, 2007, 12:46 PM   #52
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And what would you do then? Shoot them? Or OC them in the face and call for the police while they're staggering off?

You see a thug hitting a woman. What would you do? Shoot him? Step in and maybe get knifed? Or pepperspray him?
You are acting as if the only action is pull out your gun and start blazing away. First of all, OC is not guaranteed to stop anyone. It has been shown to be significantly less effective on drunks, stoners and the insane. It has been shown to increase the level of aggression on those same individuals.

If somone begins to threaten you, walk away. If they follow and persist, tell them that you are armed, in fear for your life and that if he continues his actions you will be forced to defend yourself. Say this loud enough for witnesses to hear. Dial 911 w/your weak hand, keep your strong hand near your gun. If he continues, draw your weapon. If the sight of the weapon does not end the confrontation and he assualts you, shoot him. Do not draw the weapon unless you have made the decision to shoot however. If he flees at the sight of the gun, do not pursue him. Give the police a description and direction of travel.

In the second scenario, you call 911 (always stay on the phone until police arrive), yell at the thug to stop, tell him the police are in the way. If he continues to assault her tell him that you are armed and will be forced to intervene if he doesn't stop. If he continues to beat her, clearly her life is in danger. If her life is in danger, in most states deadly force is justified.

In either case, use of a flashlight or OC could put you in a less tactically favorable position. If you choose to carry OC for moral reasons, no one can fault you for that. But that decision is not without risk.

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Some people don't think, it seems.
Duh!
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Old June 2, 2007, 01:18 PM   #53
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If somone begins to threaten you, walk away. If they follow and persist, tell them that you are armed, in fear for your life and that if he continues his actions you will be forced to defend yourself. Say this loud enough for witnesses to hear. Dial 911 w/your weak hand, keep your strong hand near your gun. If he continues, draw your weapon.
Congratulations! You've just BRANDISHED! You win a free trip to jail!
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Old June 2, 2007, 01:21 PM   #54
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If somone begins to threaten you, walk away. If they follow and persist, tell them that you are armed, in fear for your life and that if he continues his actions you will be forced to defend yourself. Say this loud enough for witnesses to hear. Dial 911 w/your weak hand, keep your strong hand near your gun. If he continues, draw your weapon.
Congratulations! You've just BRANDISHED! You win a free trip to jail!

You need to brush up on the laws. And your English.

Quote:
Brandish:to wave something about, especially a weapon, in a menacing, theatrical, or triumphant way
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Old June 2, 2007, 01:22 PM   #55
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You probably should check that definition. Displaying a firearm when you are in fear of death or seriously bodily harm does not meet the requirement for brandishment.

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Some people don't think, it seems.
Again, duh.
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Old June 2, 2007, 05:10 PM   #56
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Lurper, as a matter of fact I don't carry iron when I go to the bar. Not because of my personal standards for deadly force, but because it is illegal in my area.

There are plenty of situations where I could see using deadly force against an unarmed adversary as just, but there are also a few situations where it would not be right for a moral man to take a life. We all have to play it by ear.

What does the P in PM stand for? Public?
Nope. It stands for private and it is a useful tool for saying things that need to be said but are not kosher for the forum.
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Old June 2, 2007, 05:24 PM   #57
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Okay, guys.

I deleted the private message that got posted in public, and several posts that were responding to that private message.

I'm going to leave this open -- on the grounds that it can be a fruitful discussion, and should be a fruitful discussion. I do believe y'all are capable of dialing it back a notch, keeping it civil, and discussing issues rather than personalities.

Please don't prove me wrong.

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Old June 2, 2007, 06:01 PM   #58
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OB
Certainly no one can fault you for making your decision on moral grounds.
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Old June 2, 2007, 07:44 PM   #59
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I'm bowing out of this thread.

I have already made a bit of a jerk of myself and am a bit embarrassed.

As I have mentioned before, if someone feels better about having a non-lethal way of protecting themselves... more power to them. I have a lot of respect for trying to do the right thing. That was never my argument.

I do however stand firm that if you are carrying, you need to walk away from fights (as these were given as examples of reasons to carry non-lethal weapons). It isn't right to allow yourself to get involved in a brawl just to whip out OC when you decide you want to stop (even if you only verbally got involved).

If that makes me a pansy, I am very proud to be one. I will continue to ignore insults, and walk away from people who try to pick fights with me. Even if someone is insulting my wife, we will simply leave. More importantly, I will continue to avoid areas that might lead to such incidents.

Over and over I see posts on this forum of people explaining that they experience complete changes in their mentality while carrying and find themselves becoming very laid back and avoid confrontations at all costs. It makes me feel good knowing there are so many people who feel this way. I wish everyone did.
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Old June 2, 2007, 07:48 PM   #60
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KCshooter, "brandish" is a legal definition. I suggest you look it up, as it's against the law in most states.

Oh, yes, and as for English, I've a degree in it. Thanks for playing.
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Old June 2, 2007, 09:47 PM   #61
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Revance,

Quote:
I do however stand firm that if you are carrying, you need to walk away from fights
Good point since few of are using security holsters for CCW. I'm still on the fence for a Non-Lethal secondary. I have heard good reasons to have it, but they don't seem to fit were I live. I do carry a good lock blade, but it is more for utility then defense.
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Old June 2, 2007, 09:55 PM   #62
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Very true, but unfortunately it is not always possible to get away from the problem.

Sorry I got a little too excited about this topic, folks. I have not been in a brawl in a very long time, but my memory is sharp and I used to be wild when I was young.

I'm just glad nobody ever shot me over some stupid tussle. It seems like quite a few would have. I'm happy we never met.
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:07 AM   #63
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KCshooter, "brandish" is a legal definition. I suggest you look it up, as it's against the law in most states.

Oh, yes, and as for English, I've a degree in it. Thanks for playing.
Odd that you still can't seem to grasp the legal or dictionary definition of the word then.
If you are in fear of an attack, and pull a weapon to defend yourself, thereby discouraging the attack, that is far from either the legal or Webster's definition of brandishing. Brandishing is pulling it out unnecessarily to threaten someone or to show off. You were drawing because you felt a reasonable fear for your safety. Perfectly legal for a legally carried weapon.


Quote:
I have not been in a brawl in a very long time, but my memory is sharp and I used to be wild when I was young.
I'm just glad nobody ever shot me over some stupid tussle. It seems like quite a few would have. I'm happy we never met.
I understand a wild youth. But would you have continued to attack someone who calmly walked away? If the answer is no, as I have a feeling it is, then you never had need to fear this type of thinking. Times have changed, too. 15 years ago we could get into a fight and know it was just a fight. Today, you can't, somebody is bound to be armed.
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:13 AM   #64
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My Original Reason for Starting the Thread

I began the thread, and maybe should have stated this earlier:

The main reason I am interested in secondary weapons is due to my age (just shy of 60) and, while in as good a shape as I can be - I have bad lungs and a heart problem + several other conditions that make me fear what for another might just be punch or pushing down on the ground. For me it may turn into serious medical harm.

Yes, I know physical condition of the CCW is part of any investigation into weather a shooting was "reasonable" and i may be OK if I shot legally. But I can't help but feel someone could well be doing the "tough guy" routine, not trying to kill me with his hands, and I would like a way of responding one step down from shooting. So I thought of the two I know: OC and Surefire Light. I'll use the latter I think. I already have it in my hand for use as a photgrapher when carrying equipment at night - or just with footing on very dark streets. Using it as well as a "weapon light" while trying to run - best as I can - would already be available. If I can't run far and fast - and I can't - and the guy recovers from the light in his eyes and starts running at me, then it may be time to escalate and I have then attempted a non-lethal response - and failed. But I have succeded in fulfilling our state law and a moral obligation I may feel: to attempt to escape if possible.
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:17 AM   #65
DougO83
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Non-Lethal

From my experience, I prefer the non-lethal approach to conflict resolution. Make no mistake, this rarely means "non-violent" i.e. talking my way out of a situation. I would much rather use a tazer, or spray or something to that effect before engaging an aggressor with my CCW. Yes, I know that tazers can be just as deadly in some instances, but I can't think of one time that spray has caused a death. I try to remember the fact that I tend to be a bit wild and run my mouth and the problem may be worse if I've had a piss-poor day. I would hate to shoot someone just because thay are having a bad day and decide to scuffle with me. As far as avoiding a fight while carrying, this totally depends on your carry method, I use a rather cheap holster, so I would avoid getting in close with someone at all costs. If the only way to do this is to shoot them, then that's how it goes.
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:27 AM   #66
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I have bad lungs and a heart problem
Would highly recommend against the OC spray for this reason because of the posibility of blowback. It could affect your breathing and your heart. I would recommend heeding the advice in this post, walk away if you can, be prepared to shoot to end the threat if you can't.

Quote:
But I can't help but feel someone could well be doing the "tough guy" routine, not trying to kill me with his hands, and I would like a way of responding one step down from shooting.
To me, and to the laws, walking away is that step.



Quote:
I can't think of one time that spray has caused a death
No but I can think of many where the spray had no effect and the threat kept coming and now you may not have enough time to draw and fire to defend yourself because of time wasted on the spray.

Quote:
I try to remember the fact that I tend to be a bit wild and run my mouth and the problem may be worse if I've had a piss-poor day. I would hate to shoot someone just because thay are having a bad day and decide to scuffle with me.
Even on your worst day, would you have continued to try to fight someone who was trying to walk away?


I do understand why some of you want to consider a LTL form of defense. I just urge you to consider that if it has gone far enough for you to actually be at the point where you are going to use it, do you think it will be to a point where you don't feel like you are in serious danger? Isn't that why you carry? If you are not able to take a life to defend your own, you need to reconsider carrying in the first place.
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:51 AM   #67
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KC's Point

Yes there is something to be said for keepin that in mind, KC.

One of the reasons I got my CCW is due to a situation I found myself in that - had things gone slightly differently I could have been in a lot of trouble - and my own reaction troubled me afterwards.

A group of neighbors were watching as a man and a woman were really at the point of violence in some drug enhanced or booze enhanced wild street screaming and "making feints" to go at each other - - (this was at midnight). The woman wisely took off and the guy suddenly went nuts and started to run after her, it looked like he was going to really hurt her. I called 911 and without thinking started walking away from the neighbors and towards where the guy was cornering the woman - what I could have done with bad lungs/heart and the whole story is ridiculous - he was young and in some drug/rage high - he pivoted and came towards me and was just feet way screaming and threatening, I didn't move back, felt no fear, and some weird calm was over me as if this wasn't all happening - very luckily the 911 operator was still on the line, heard all this, asked if that was him, I said yes, and quickly there were a mass of sirens converging; the guy took the hint and fled and the cops all chased but I don't know what happened after.

I felt I had acted in a way that could really have gotten me screwed: instictively moving close to help when that was ridiculous and seperated me from all others - not feeling any fear and just standing there exposed etc.

Weird the way you react in the moment. Anyway, I realized having a weapon if the guy I had not left and went at me with a knife or something would have been nice. So, I applied for CCW and 9 mos later (NY) got one for Business Carry.

Word to the wise: you don't necessarily react like you imagine under stress.

Last edited by gvf; June 3, 2007 at 12:58 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:53 AM   #68
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ok...

Ok...I know many are going to try to crucify me for this, but I don't carry to protect myself from all assailants. I only carry as a means to protect myself against those that appear to be the greatest percieved threat. Somebody just making a threat is nothing new to me, I work security and am a bouncer, so I am highly capable of handling that situation without my weapon. Against a knife, I could defend myself with either my hands or my blade, but I would probably opt for a spray in this situation. I would only use my firearm after using all other resources, except in the case of very extenuating circumstances.
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Old June 3, 2007, 12:58 AM   #69
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Quote:
he was young and in some drug/rage high
You do realize that the OC spray had a very high chance of not affecting him because he was altered, right? If he had a knife, came at you, you sprayed, he was not incapacitated and kept coming, you may not have had time to draw if you had been carrying, right? And the fumes or some of the spray with your lungs could have severly affected you, too.

Quote:
Word to the wise: you don't necessarily react like you imagine under stress.
Great point.




Quote:
Against a knife, I could defend myself with either my hands or my blade, but I would probably opt for a spray in this situation.
Why would you risk it? He has a knife. What if he's better with it than you are?

You guys all seem to think that you are going to come out on top in all these fights, but there are people out there than can kick your ass in a fight, and if he brings a knife, he may be very proficient with it, to pull out a knife in defense against a knife is foolish.

If he pulls out a knife, he just "brought a knife to a gunfight".
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Old June 3, 2007, 01:06 AM   #70
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again...

KC, I don't know what your experience is, but I have been shot twice and stabbed once or twice in the scope of my job. I have been trained in various forms of hand-to-hand and unarmed v. armed training. I do not have to hide behind my CCW, I have plenty of ways to avoid firing on someone. I believe in second chances, if I didn't have one or two, I wouldn't be here so I am willing to go out of my way to give one to someone else. Moreover, I do not have the time or the funds to sit in court while a bunch of pansies and people not smart enough to get out of jury duty decide whether or not I acted with reasonable force or whether or not my life was truly in danger.
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Old June 3, 2007, 01:11 AM   #71
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and by the way

KC, I do not advocate trying to go hand-to-hand with people if you can't. I have been in enough fights to know when I do or don't have a decent chance. That is beside the point. I basically said that despite my ability, I would still opt for something that would distance me from the assailant before resorting to a firearm.
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Old June 3, 2007, 02:56 AM   #72
oldbillthundercheif
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If he pulls out a knife, he just "brought a knife to a gunfight".
That's for damn sure. A knife is no joke. That situation would get a lethal response as quick as I could clear leather.
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Old June 3, 2007, 07:28 AM   #73
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If I was employed as a bouncer, I would definetly carry OC. You're obligated to handle drunks and bums in LTL situations the way your employer wants them handled. Like police, you are obligated to put up with more, due to it being your job.
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Old June 3, 2007, 09:57 AM   #74
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Quote:
I can't think of one time that spray has caused a death
There are documented cases of spray causing death and documented cases of OC being ineffective.

Quote:
I do not have to hide behind my CCW,
It's not a question of "hiding" behind anything. It is a question of responsibility. You have the responsibility when you carry a firearm to exercise more than good judgement. That judgement should be based on the understanding that your actions will have life altering consequences for everyone involved and others who know and love them. That responsibilty means that you should take whatever steps are reasonably necessary to avoid having to employ your firearm. That means that you should not get involved in situations that do not require lethal force - whether you carry LTL or not (since they can spiral out of control very quickly). It does not require you to be a hero waiting to happen, it does not require you to give the BG another chance or even any chance because any chance you give them is an opportunity for them to injure or kill you or others.

Engaging someone in a "scuffle" when you are armed is poor judgement. Thinking that it is "only a fistfight" is courting disaster. One punch can and often will incapacitate you. Carrying LTL will for some people be justification for getting involved because they assume the altercation will stop after employing it. What should happen is that knowing you are carrying a firearem should cause you to be certain that the situation requires lethal force or not get involved.

I have extensive training in the military and have studied Aikido for more than a decade. I am in excellent shape and train/work out daily. So, while I am physically capable of handling many situations, I walk away because of the responsibility I have when I carry. That and one of the first lessons I learned was that no matter how bad you think you are, you will always run into someone who is badder.
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Old June 3, 2007, 01:11 PM   #75
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Myth and fact

Just FYI,

There has been a lot of down play on the effectiveness of OC. And I feel it is due to a lot of myth and out dated information. Technology continues to progress. And there have been great advances concerning OC.

MACE which is a common name used for OC is not OC. Is was developed by the Mace INC company and did suffer many problems. There was a high percentage of the population who could and were imune to it. There were also a few lawsuits involving the product and victims going blind. The Mace comapny no longer makes the said product and now only manufactors OC spray in their own container.

There are many different companies that produce OC products. And their formulas vary from each other. I have seen one company that claims to use OC, tear gas, and an accelerant chemical in one unit. I have not had the pleasure of getting sprayed by that one yet. Many of the companies have upped the concentration of their product to compete.

There are also advances being made in the delivery of the inflamatory such as gel, and foam. IMO the foam delivery is not appealing because of the risk of having it thrown back at you and wind factors that can be involved. However the gel looks very promising as it tends to stick better and deliver a more concentrated dose faster.

Now although the advances all seem to be heading in the right direction there is still a small percentage that are imune to even OC spray at its highest concentration. But I belive that is only 1 or 3% percent of the population. As far as the above mentioned drug or alchahol induced haze is concerned. The effects of OC spray can last up to an hour and most of the felt effect is felt for 30 minutes or more. I have witnessed a lot of people sober up right quick in reaction to OC. And if they are that intoxicated I wouldn't trust my sidearm as a God sent either.

Although many people think that if shot the perp just falls down that is far from the truth. I have muliple discussion with my local PD's about chasing perps shot in any number of leathal spots and still a chase will ensue for blocks before the said perp dies from blood loss. I do not know how many people on this thread go hunting but if you ever shoot a deer in the heart you still are in quite the chase to claim your prize.

My advice to anyone interested in OC spray is to read up on in. And also check your local laws. Many cities inparticular do not allow the use of OC spray. And some only in certain amounts. And honestly if you have any doubts about the effectiveness of your chosen product get some Johnsons & Johnsons no tear baby soap, a hose or bucket and have someone give you a dose. I recomend the soap from experience, it will help wash the bits of pepper and chemical out of your eyes and you will have a quicker recovery time.
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Last edited by pax; June 3, 2007 at 01:16 PM. Reason: added paragraphs (next time, please add paras before posting... thanks)
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