Urban Combat: Shotgun or Assault Rifle?

[Jeremy Stafford]

My first engagement in the Sandbox I had a well used Mossberg 590. It served me well and handled all of the Hajis I put in front of it (loaded with Winchester slugs). However, when it came time to reload, the Tubes major shortcoming (even in upclose work) was very apparent. When rounds are kicking up dirt at your feet and snapping over your head, it takes an ETERNITY to reload!

[smince]

None of them have chokes. They have been modified by Hans Vang

I was under the impression that Vang barrels are internally choked.

See you can use both buckshot and slugs...isn't that versatile?

However, when it came time to reload, the Tubes major shortcoming (even in upclose work) was very apparent. When rounds are kicking up dirt at your feet and snapping over your head, it takes an ETERNITY to reload!

The major strike against the shotgun is the reloading. And changing rounds during an action? Eject the buck, and insert a slug, Or keep the tube one round down so you can insert the round of your choice to be the next one in the mag. I'll take a rifle myself.

[jeager106]

frog21:
WELL YOU'VE GOT MY ATTENTION!
Seven out of nine 00 buck in a 12 plate is incredible.
That being the case you have 3 cylinder bore shotties that shoot 100% patterns at 40.
40 yards being the standard most sporting shotguns are patterned to determine the effectiveness of the shot load inside a 30" circle.
Your shotties must absolutely shoot the center out of a paper target at 40 yards!
I have two highly modified barrels for my 870 which serves as a defensive s.g. around the homestead.
One is a 28" v.r. the other 20" with rifle sights.
Both barrels have been extensivley modified, neither will shoot 6 or 7 out of 9 00 buck into a 12" plate at 50 yards with imp. mod., or extra full.
And I've shot a ton of buckshot, premium, hard, copper plated, buffered, 3" ammo.
I am most interested in a shotgun that will perform like yours does.
Would you please advise what modifications Hand Vang performs on a shottie to produce those stellar results at that distance?
Please tell me what ammo you use to get such remarkable results?
I would absolutely pay premium bucks to have a s.g. barrel that would perform like that.
Of coures we know that combat troops don't use specially modified shotguns.
I doubt any military and darned few police s.gs get sent to smiths that specilize in barrel work.
5" groups at 100 with good slugs is no trick from any s.g barrel with good properly reguated sights.
I never shot buck at 50 yards for penetration in any medium. Never could count on a pellet getting close enough to anything, even a gallon jug of water.
Please advise specifics on Hans Vang modifications, and please, how to get contact that person. I sure would absolutely slobber over a s.g. that would perform like that at 50 yards.
I dare say that is a rarity.
I WANT one!!!!!

[frog21]

Jeager106,

www.vangcomp.com

The 00 buck I use most often is the copper plated Federal Tactical. I once got all 12 pellets on a 12" plate with a Benneli. I also shot a 6 inch pattern at 25 yards with that same Vang Comp Benneli, and I did that 3 shots in a row. I stopped showing off after the 3. My 870 and 590 barrels will consistenty pattern 7 - 9 inches at 25 yards with the Federal Tactical.

As with any shotgun, occasionally I get a flyer and will get a 25 yard pattern of 10 inches and maybe 11 or 12 inches but these are certainly not the norm and this is very rare.

I was going through a a shoot house once with my favorite 870 loaded with #8 shot and across a large room at about 23 feet, I took a head shot on a paper target. The rangemaster and I did a thorough search and found that only one piece of shot was not in the face. It went through the pictured bad guys ear.

You will see that some of Hans' mods use porting. I have some barrels that are ported and some that are not. The non ported are my favorite but they all pattern the same.

I know lot's of people with Vang mod shotguns and all get like results.

I will say again that even though my tactical shotguns perform like this I would still choose the carbine for urban combat in most cases. I say most cases because "the situation dictates the tactics".

[David Armstrong]

Versitility? The question addressed urban combat. The s.g. is a specialized weapon. Even in military applications the s.g. is issued for specific reasons. It is not a general combat weapon, nor is it versitile.

HUH?? The thing that makes it so goood for urban combat is the versatility. Different loads can be selected to address different needs. Most combat loadings have enough versatility to reach across different situations.

O.K. What ammo is effective to 100 meters? I'm hoping you say a bullet like projectile, i.e. slug, not buck shot.

While the slug is of course the primary selection for 100 yard use, Buck can be used in some situations. Again, that is the versatility of the weapon.

Hit rates at 50 meters with what ammo?

Buckshot, and flechettes for those who can get them.

But hit rate at 50 meters from a military or police s.g. from one person firing?

Yes. Sorry if that seems to confuse you so much, but those are the findings from tests conducted by various military forces over the years.

Perhaps you missed my post where I reported out on the fact that you could miss a man sized target using a cyl. bore 12, and the standard load of nine 00 soft lead, unbuffered, unplated buckshot.

The fact that you seem to have trouble performing a task does not mean that task is imposssible for others. I used to regularly engage the 24" plates at 50 yards with a shotgun using standard buck. Being able to customize it a bit (such as selecting a buckshot load that patterned well with my particular gun) makes it much easier, so much so that I have little problem engaging the 10" plate at that distance.

At 50 meters 00 buck don't penetrate worth a hoot.

It penetrates well enough to disable and kill. What more do you want? FWIW, I've taken two deer between the 40 and 50 yard mark with buckshot, and they seemed unaware that the rounds weren't supposed to penetrate.

Listen: What in the world makes you think "proper training" changes the ballsitics of buckshot???????

Where have I sad anything about training changing the ballistics? Proper training allows one to more effectively utilize the ballistics that are there, recognize the strengths and weaknesses for various loads, select the proper load for the particular situation, utilize a less than optimum load for best results in a situation, etc.

[David Armstrong]

Has anyone here, even one of you, ever patterned 00 buck from a cylinder bore 12 gauge at any distance?
Now, has anyone of you ever, in a controled test, fired the standard nine 00 buck load at a full measured 50 yards from a cylinder bore 12 gauge shotgun?

Yes and yes.

IT AIN'T effective at 50 yards with 00 buck.

Maybe so for you, but for others it has been.

Since the war we are currently involved in has morphed into a largely urban battle one wonders why the rifle has not been largely replaced by the shotgun?

Not at all. They are very different weapons, with different strengths and weaknesses. The shotgun is going to take more training to use to its maximum potential. The ammunition supply is much more difficult. It is harder to control for many people. The rifle is a better general-issue weapon, particularly when capable of automatic fire. It might be equated to the submachine gun never supplanting the rifle for the US soldier in WW2.

[jeager106]

David. My point is that the s.g. is a very versitile weapon but specialized in implimentation.
It is not a useful general combat weapon. It is very useful in a urban situation but would never, ever, be the issued weapon for troops in urban combat.
Being a specialized weapon the soldier carrying the s.g. most certainly needs the support of fellows armed with the combat rifle.
The thing is painfully slow to reload, kicks like a mule is of very limited range, can only hold 6, 7 , 8 or 9 rounds of ammo.
Yes I know there are magazines that can hold more but they are beasts to carry, make the gun so very out of balance, and ultra heavy. Ergo you don't hear of the 25 shot drum issued for combat use.
Listen: NO s.g. will pattern available buckshot effectively at 50 yards using a cylinder bore.
Any s.g. that can put 6 or 9 buck into 12" at 50 must have some sort of choke.
50 yards is pretty much a maximum effective range for buckshot with a good shottie designed to pattern buck well.
The only reason the combat shottie is so effective at close quarters is NOT because it scatters lead!
At close range the shotgun simply must be pointed or aimed the same exact way a rifle is used to engage close targets.
The shogtun delivers a massive lead payload. That is way it excells.
If the payload is buckshot it looses effectiveness over distance. It falls far short of the rifles ablilities to deliver a payload.
I never said the s.g. wasn't usefull. It is, however, very limited in it's usefullness.
My tricked up 870 will deliver patterns of #4 and 00 buck that could kill (deer or humans) at 50 yards. It is, however, a tricked up, highly modified s.g. Not the cylinder bore found in most as issued shotties.
Have you ever fired a cylinder bore s.g. at a man sized silhouette at 25, 30, and so on with unplatted, unbuffered, soft lead 2 3/4" 00 buck?
The reuslts may unpleasantly surprise you.
Patterns improve dramatically with todays platted, buffered, high antimony buck and imp. cyl. and modified chokes.
I'd venture to say the deer you took with buck were not taken with a straight cyl. bore and the above mentioned standard buck loads.
Oh, and FWIW. If a shotgun barrel does contain the internal chokes the conventional wisdom is that slugs absolutely should NOT be fired from such a barrel.
That would limit the versitility of the s.g. making it a 50 yard weapon for sure.
Oh. And just for grins saunter out to your local range and sling some 00 buck from your best tricked up shottie at a silhouette at 100 yards.
Then sling some lead at the same target with your assault rifle and see why the combat rifle is the general purpose urban combat weapon and the shotgun is a specialized support weapon.
Given all the information slathered on this thread I would take the rifle over the s.g. and appreciate being supported by the s.g. armed person that knows how to use it.
If I were assigned the combat shottie and had to use it in a urban fight I would apprecaite a squad armed with rifles for support.
If I were alone in an urban fight I would opt for the rifle any day.
The tactically withdraw until I got some support.
No one ever said the s.g was useless, just limited.

[jeager106]

Methinks some of you fellas that the unmodified cylinder bore 12 gauge s.g. is a viable, reliable, and effective weapon for general urban combat would do well to study the posted results here :https://www.vangcomp.com/Pattern_dea.html
For those of you not interested enough to see the results on VANGCOMPS site I'll simply say that NO testing was done by anyone past the thrity-five yard range.
No testing was done and posted at even 40 yards.
The DEA tests were done at a maximum distance of 25 yards.
Tests were performed with a VANGCOMP tricked up s.g. using nine 00 buck loads.
At twenty five yards all 9 pellets remained in the torso "kill zone" and was hailed by the testers as "quite an accomplishment".
This lends a taddy bit of credibility to my own observations that the std. nine pellet load of 00 buck at 25 yards left a lot to be desired.
Indeed it is possible to MISS any vital hit on a man sized silhoutte at 25 using a cyl bore s.g. and the much described std load.
I've proved that on more than a few occasions by actually shooting the patterns, doing to work and doucmenting the results, not by reading somes jibberish on the internet.
My trickup up shottie is not ported nor backbored.
Porting makes one extremely loug shotgun blast very, very much more loud.
I consider that a tactical disadvantage that overshadows any advantage in perceived recoil or muzzle rise.
But hey! Listen: I ain't no buddy. I'm just some swiggin' dude that has been to a host of great firearms training programs, fired litterly thousands of rounds of buck 'n ball in all manner of 'live fire house' drills and feild conditions.
Shot up a dozen junk cars with s.g. ammo and I fully realize the devestating power and extreme limitations of the combat s.g.
I've kicked down a door or two in my 22 year career and when I had a choice my entry firearm was a supressed MP-5!
And believe me I was comforted by the fact that my entry team had a trusted, qualified, man with a 14" 870 loaded with #4 buck with modified choke.
I think those of you that believe the s.g. can consistantly put all buckshot into a 12" circle at 50 yards need to go back to the range and fire enough rounds to develope consistant, repeatable, results.
Then post them.

[threegun]

The bottom line is if given one choice (either rifle or shotgun) for urban fighting the only logical answer is the rifle. Unless you have a supporting cast armed with rifles the shotgun is simply to short ranged to be a viable choice. Sure you can fire slugs but with 1/5 of the accuracy, 1/4 or the firepower and 1/3 of the range of a rifle. The only major plus for the shotgun is its devastating power at closer ranges. Well I got news for you a hit from a high powered rifle isn't a bee sting. Few humans can withstand let alone function with a hit to the vitals from a high powered rifle. So my rifle can operate close up and at distance with precision and effectiveness. How can anyone chose the shotgun?

[gripster]

because assault shotguns with a pistol grip are fun to shoot. i have both assault rifle and shotgun and ill take ether/or. don't matter to me.

[frog21]

jeager106,

I think those of you that believe the s.g. can consistantly put all buckshot into a 12" circle at 50 yards need to go back to the range and fire enough rounds to develope consistant, repeatable, results.
Then post them.

I could not find a post that said, "all buckshot into a 12" circle at 50 yards".

My loads of choice for my 870's are Federal Tactical 00 buck for the up close and personal stuff and a good 1 ounce slug for anything past about 15 yards. These are my real world choices. At the range it is fun and educational to push the limits.

[Dwight55]

jeager106, . . . no insult intended, . . . but you have a bit to learn about the tactics used by our military.

Your statement: ". . . but would never, ever, be the issued weapon for troops in urban combat," just simply is not true, . . . it is issued, . . . it is used, . . . and it is even coveted on a regular basis by our front line combat troops, . . . and has been such in every major combat since WW1.

Instead of relying on what you "think" go back and read some of the previous posts in this thread, . . . you will find that the shotgun has a very vital and efficient role in the hands of someone who is proficient in its use.

Contrary to popular belief, . . . military rifle ammo is the big limiting factor in the rifle's effectiveness. As often as not, . . . the rounds buzz right through the person making a beautiful 5.56 or 7.62 mm hole all the way through. This is especially true if no bone is hit. Many VietNam corpmen and medics will be more than willing to validate that statement.

The shotgun on the other hand plows 9 or 12 ea, lead 00 balls through the wound channel, . . . similar to being hit with 9 or 12 ea 5.56 or 7.62's all in the very close proximity of each other.

Yes, . . . cumbersome to reload, . . . limited load capacity, . . . but again, . . . it is simply a function of position in the fire team, . . . and proficiency with the weapon system.

May God bless,
Dwight

[jeager106]

Your statement: ". . . but would never, ever, be the issued weapon for troops in urban combat," just simply is not true, . . . it is issued, . . . it is used, . . . and it is even coveted on a regular basis by our front line combat troops, . . . and has been such in every major combat since WW1.

'Scuse me but the s.g. is NOT the weapon issued to the troops.
It's a specialized weapon issued to some troops, and rightfully so.
Methinks I didn't post that clearly enough and you misread it.

The shotgun is an effective weapon at close range only because it can produce multiple hits in milliseconds.
No shoulder fired machine gun can deliver nine, twelve or fifteen .33 caliber 'bullets' in what amounts to instantly.
It is this fact and this fact only that makes the s.g. so devestating at close range. that many instant hits in the torso will produce horrendouse damage to organs, nervous system, and artries.
Bad guys without armor should fall down right quick at 15 yards and less.
But you see at that range you are pretty much shooting the thing in a rifle like manner. It is not the old classic idea of a scattergun.
We see people and law enforcement agencies getting serious about having a s.g. that DON'T scatter so much so that the payload goes in a confined area to wreck havoc.
Remember what I said about sometimes missing a silhouette at 25 yards.
Well son, law enforment agencies know all too well the ineffectiveness of the so called 'police riot' gun and box them up and off the like of Vangcomp for the work that makes them less likely to miss the bad guy at 25 yards and closer.
In a real shooting fight the s.g. is NOT a 50 yard weapon with shot loads.
I would strongly argue that it is not a viable deer weapon with buck at 50 yards.
Maybe a very good, tricked up, s.g. would be marginally effective at 50.
Once I had occasion to converse with some good ol' boys from the swamp land of southern Va.
These boys were serious deer hunters, used beagles to run deer around those very thick swamps and I witnessed some very interesting custom s.g. barrels and loads
These guys claim 100 yard kills on the rather small 80 pound deer that about in that area.
They used reamed out and sleeved barrels as long as 40 inches.
Not made long to make the gun shoot further by vertue of lenght alone but to burn buckets of slow burning powder under up to 20 OO buck shot!
The buckshot was 00, cast by hand from linotype.
These guns sported rifle sights, some had scopes.
That was 25 years ago.
If anyone is interseted in a serious buck load take a look at Dixie Ammo's TriBall load.
Three, hard cast .62 balls that really will put all the payload in a 10" circle at 50 yards.
That is a serious buckshot load that will perfrom on even larger deer.

[David Armstrong]

My point is that the s.g. is a very versitile weapon but specialized in implimentation.

And my point is that specialized implementation is what makes it such an outstanding performer in the realm of urban combat.

It is not a useful general combat weapon. It is very useful in a urban situation but would never, ever, be the issued weapon for troops in urban combat.

But the initial post did not ask about a general combat weapon, the question posed was "...which weapon do you think is more effective in modern urban combat?" To me, that is the shotgun for reasons previously enumerated. The fact that it has some inherent weaknesses that disqualify it as a general purpose weapon does not diminish that at all. To use a marginal analogy, if one were to ask "what car do you think is the most effective in modern urban traffic?" I might suggest the Porsche 911. The fact that most people cannot drive one anywhere near to it's potential and are prebably better off with a Honda Civic doesn't change that at all.

The thing is painfully slow to reload, kicks like a mule is of very limited range, can only hold 6, 7 , 8 or 9 rounds of ammo.

Much of that is a training issue, and I believe I've already said that the user must be well trained if he is to get the advantages the shotgun offers. But with proper training reloading is not at all slow, the kick is quite easy to manage, and the limited range is well within the urban combat parameters.

Listen: NO s.g. will pattern available buckshot effectively at 50 yards using a cylinder bore.

Listen: One can quickly and effectively engage human targets at 50 yards with available buckshot using a cylinder bore. Whether one would consider that to be patterning effectively is fairly irrelevant, IMO.

50 yards is pretty much a maximum effective range for buckshot with a good shottie designed to pattern buck well.

Again you use the term effective. Will it hit the BG and cause him to have problems is my concern. To me that is effective. Any other consideration is purely academic to me. If you need to get a more precise shot at any range, switch to a slug.

Have you ever fired a cylinder bore s.g. at a man sized silhouette at 25, 30, and so on with unplatted, unbuffered, soft lead 2 3/4" 00 buck?

Now you are wanting to change the parameters of the discussion to fit your wished-for result. Why focus on the combination of components least likely to achieve good results? But yes, I have, and given the proper match between weapon and ammo had little trouble in doing what I wanted to do.

I'd venture to say the deer you took with buck were not taken with a straight cyl. bore and the above mentioned standard buck loads.

I can't address the bore, as i was much younger and didn't worry about that kind of stuff. But the gun was an old Remington single-shot and the ammo was paper-hulled 00-Buck that Dad bought at the local hardware store, so I doubt any of the equipment was very high tech.

That would limit the versitility of the s.g. making it a 50 yard weapon for sure.

Perhaps in your hands, but having used a cylinder bore 870 to hit what I needed at 50 with buck and 100 with slugs, I don't find it to be much of a limit.

Oh. And just for grins saunter out to your local range and sling some 00 buck from your best tricked up shottie at a silhouette at 100 yards.

Why? At 10 yards the slug is the round of choice for the shotgun. I'm not sure what you are attempting to accomplish by consistently suggesting the shotgun be deployed in methods that go against proper training. When used properly, by someone who is trained in that use, the shotgun works fine. But just like anything else, if you use it incorrectly or outside of its performance envelope it will suffer. As it happens, typical urban combat is well within the performance envelope.

If I were assigned the combat shottie and had to use it in a urban fight I would apprecaite a squad armed with rifles for support.

Again, I'm not sure what the point is here. It doesn't matter if I'm armed with a shotgun, submachine-gun, a flame-thrower, a rifle, or a sword, I would appreciate a squad armed with rifles for support.

If I were alone in an urban fight I would opt for the rifle any day.

Fair enough. I would too these days, given my physical problems. A rifle makes a better choice for me right now. But up until about 5 years ago, would have felt more comfortable with the shotgun, given the skills and abilities I had at that time.

I think those of you that believe the s.g. can consistantly put all buckshot into a 12" circle at 50 yards need to go back to the range and fire enough rounds to develope consistant, repeatable, results.

I don't think anyone here has ever said anything like that. And again it goes back to the issue you keep ignoring--versatility. If your gun, your ammo, or your abilities don't indicate the use of buckshot at a certain range, switch to a slug. It's not hard to do at all.

[jeager106]

Hmmmmmmm??????????????
Dave you make sound arguments.
My early experiences with 00 buck/cyl bore were dismal.
Today I keep a s.g. around the property loaded with 3" buck, sometimes 00, sometime #4, but always in premium copper plated buffered stuff.
It patterns very effectively out to 25 and will still keep most of the payload in the discomfort zone to 40.
By the way. My s.g. is an 870 Express with forcing cone work, polished bore, no porting (too loud) rifle sights and mod. tube.
This works for me but I am thinking purely defensive these days.
I appreciate your very well worded arguments and they could go on forever.
Suffice it to say that in urban combat the s.g is a fearsome weapon.
I would still opt for a rifle for general combat, even if in an urban environment.
If I were alone I would still opt for the rifle. Accuracy over all ranges, fast reloads, 30 rounds, etc. etc.
Do appreciate your fine thinking!
Refreshing to see some logic and experience at work hey?!

[John2]

My preference is both. AOW Rem 870 on bungee sling and M16 variation with Tac sling. Transition from M16 to SG when entering close quarters. The SG is like a big pistol that can open doors...In open country, the SG stays home.

[jeager106]

John says:
"My preference is both. AOW Rem 870 on bungee sling and M16 variation with Tac sling. Transition from M16 to SG when entering close quarters. The SG is like a big pistol that can open doors...In open country, the SG stays home."

I kinda like that idea! The best of both. I don't know how hard it would be to pack all that equipment and still maintain fexlbility and mobility however.

About pistol grips on shotties.
Never cared for them. You loose a lot of muzzle control w/o the butt stock and we must realize that no matter the weapon, delivering the payload is paramount.
Besides. It's hard to buttstroke someone deserving of a little personal counseling with a pistol grip.

[High Planes Drifter]

I like a rifle. I'm just more "comfortable" with it. Last weekend I was reminded of the devastating power that a .30 bullet moving in the neighborhood of 2700 fps can inflict on a living creature when I took a nice 6 point that wieghed in the ballpark of 180lbs. <>. No large bones were hit; with the exception of breaking a couple of ribs. Clean shot thru and thru the boiler room. However, the exit wound was nearly large enough to put my fist in. He immediately collapsed in a pile. I cannot see a man being able to fight after taking a round like that in the area that my whitetail took it. I'd be comfortable with my Marlin 336, or my M1A. Nothing says "You should have stayed home tonight and smoked crack instead of com'n in my house" quite like a high powered .30 round

[Amendtwo]

My vote was for the shotgun, but only because of the connotation of "urban combat." As the other replies have indicated, it depends on how one defines "urban." If the need is for a basic weapon to blow away bad guys at relatively short ranges in varying light levels, I will take a shotgun.

[David Armstrong]

Dave you make sound arguments.

As do you. In the end it becomes a matter of what one is comfortable with, and that will be impacted strongly by previous background, training, experience, etc.

My early experiences with 00 buck/cyl bore were dismal.

I don't doubt that a bit, and that history is common for many. In fact, until recent developments such as reduced recoil shot and such, it probably was the norm.

I appreciate your very well worded arguments and they could go on forever.

And kudos to you also. It is nice to have a reasoned and logical debate with others knkowlwedgeable in the field.

[threegun]

David,

And my point is that specialized implementation is what makes it such an outstanding performer in the realm of urban combat.

Only because rifle armed comrades are with you to back up or cover up its long range deficiencies. Alone you would be at advantage against a mild numbered of assailants from close range however you would be at severe disadvantage at ranges past 35 yards or against larger numbers.

Listen: One can quickly and effectively engage human targets at 50 yards with available buckshot using a cylinder bore. Whether one would consider that to be patterning effectively is fairly irrelevant, IMO.

One can also effectively engage an elephant with a 22lr. If the elephant is charging the lack of effectiveness will be relevant. Change the analogy to a bad guy armed with a rifle at 50 yards and either the inability to hit or the ill effects of those hits (from buckshot) can and should be considered a drawback.

Fair enough. I would too these days, given my physical problems. A rifle makes a better choice for me right now. But up until about 5 years ago, would have felt more comfortable with the shotgun, given the skills and abilities I had at that time.

Although I've never been formally trained, I am quite proficient with the shotgun myself, better than most. Still doesn't make the shotgun's long range performance any better only my ability to extract the most out of what it can do at longer ranges.

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For those of you who feel the shotgun is effective at ranges of 50 plus yards with buckshot try laying a pumpkin or watermelon (the size of the average Joe's head) on the ground to simulate a prone bad guy (since we can't expect the bad guy to stand nice and tall for us) then try to hit it.

Also try to hit it with a slug at 75 yards. Then take the rifle and blow it up on the first shot.

You would be amazed at how fast good hits can be achieved with the rifle at close range and lets face facts the rifle cartridge is a good close range fight ender as well. This IMO somewhat negates the short range advantage in stopping power for the shotgun.

[threegun]

Urban or City combat. Just walk outside (if you live in the city as I do {Tampa}) look around at just how far trouble/enemy might lurk. Stepping out from my job here in Tampa, Florida and I can conceivably need to shoot out to 200 yards or better. In fact most hiding spots are at longer ranges in my particular area. In this area and if shooting a bad guy was justifiable (given the ranges and the option of retreat for us civilians) the rifle would be the only choice I could make that would give me the best chance to survive.

[jeager106]

threegun:
This has nothing what so ever to do with this discussion except I noticed that you are in Tampa.
You are fortunate.
I'm in N.E. Ohio where it's 15 degrees and dropping like a stone.
Lots of good arguments here by the way.

[gdeal]

Grenade Launcher works best in an urban environment.

[threegun]

Jeager, Its freezing over herrrre. A low of 55degrees high of 76degrees LOL.