How deep would you load this .38 spc wadcutter?

spacecoast · December 5, 2010, 06:50 PM

Our local bullet maker sells a .38 special 148 gr. DEWC (flat on both ends) that I've been using for target shooting without a problem - it cuts beautiful round holes every time from a variety of guns. Diameter is .357" and height is .567" (to my best ability to measure it).

I've been reloading this bullet to the crimp groove and applying a mild crimp for a COL of 1.22", but some of the folks I've run into at the range have been surprised that I don't push it down all the way flush with the top of the case. I've been using mild target loads of 3.0 gr. AA#2 or 2.7 gr. Titegroup, no problems at all and the accuracy is good.

Any opinions? Would you load it flush or leave the end poking out as I have? If flush, would you crimp? If flush, would the powder load change or stay the same?

mavracer · December 5, 2010, 07:43 PM

I've always loaded thos style DEWCs in the crimp groove like you did.

Wag · December 5, 2010, 07:52 PM

If you have the groove, you should use it.

I load HBWC flush but it's recommended that way by the manufacturer.

--Wag--

DogoDon · December 5, 2010, 07:53 PM

FWIW, I usually load my 148 grain WCs to almost flush, with a COL of about 1.175", and just a little bit of crimp. I've run into problems loading to a longer COL like you indicated -- the rounds tended to not seat all the way into the cylinders in my S&W 64.

I especially like a load of about 2.7 grains or so of Clays with this cartridge.

DD

Lost Sheep · December 5, 2010, 08:04 PM

If you seat deeper, have the same degree of crimp and the same powder load, you will get higher pressure. Approximately proportional to the reduction in interior volume of the case, which will vary depending on the interior shape of the case.

I have heard that many wadcutters are loaded flush because they feed through the Semi-automatic 38 special target guns better that way. With revolvers, that feature is irrelevant, but if I had never seen a SWC with exposed lead, I would wonder, just as your range-mates have. I figure the crimping groove is there for crimping, so full depth or with a little exposed lead would be up to your load development and what your gun likes better. No crimp at all is also an option. If you get good ignition, a reliable burn and your (unfired) bullets stay in place during recoil there is no reason not to forego the crimp. Your brass will last longer.

Lost Sheep

SL1 · December 5, 2010, 08:17 PM

I load my wadcutters so that they are seated-out far enough to get into the cylinder throats in revolvers, even the ones that are designed to be seated flush. The intent is to get bullet alignment as good as possible before the round is fired. Many years ago, that showed an improvement in accuracy in my tests, using soft swaged wadcutters. Of course, they won't feed in autoloaders when seated like that.

So, I say don't change a thing if they are accurate the way you are loading them. You probably can't make them any better.

SL1

jepp2 · December 5, 2010, 08:33 PM

I load HBWC flush with the case mouth because they will not fit in the S&W M-52 magazine if you don't.

For DEWC like you show, I seat to the crimp groove like you do. For light target loads I am able to use a taper crimp to just close the flare created for bullet seating. Bullet movement from recoil doesn't require a crimp, and with easy to ignite fast burning powders a taper crimp is sufficient.

chiefr · December 5, 2010, 10:26 PM

I am with DongoDon & Jepp2; flush w/ little crimp.

I get exceptional accuracy with 2.8g Bullseye.

zxcvbob · December 5, 2010, 10:36 PM

I load 'em just like you have pictured -- currently using 3.0 grains of American Select. Load them flush if you have a S&W 52 or whatever that Colt semiauto was (Gold Cup Nat'l Match?)

spacecoast · December 6, 2010, 06:34 AM

While it's hard to mess with success, it would also be nice to avoid the extra crimping operation as well as wear/tear on the brass, so I think I will load a box with the bullets pushed a little deeper to avoid having an unsightly gap around the crimp groove, something like shown below, and apply no crimp. COL is about 1.197".

I'll take them to the range and see if there is any affect on accuracy or ignition compared to what I've been loading. I'm thinking ignition should be fine with the long cylindrical bearing surface provided by this bullet, which tends to grip the case tightly anyway.

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies and ideas.

spacecoast · December 13, 2010, 07:20 AM

I'm happy to say that shooting-wise, I can't detect any difference between the longer crimped round and the shorter uncrimped one. I tested both at 25 yards and didn't see any significant difference in accuracy or recoil.

As I suspected, the crimp isn't necessary at all to hold the round in place, at least with the process I am using. I tried disassembling the dummy round I made for the pic and haven't been able to budge it using a ballistic puller. Tight!

BTW, I stopped at Harbor Freight over the weekend and picked up the CenTech 6" digital caliper using the coupon in the latest American Rifleman. I'm not usually keen about the Chinese stuff, but this is a sweet caliper (mm/in scales accurate to .001", resolution to .0005"/.01mm) considering that I got it for $10, extra battery included.

bighead46 · December 13, 2010, 11:37 AM

Well it is what ever works but I believe the standard method is "almost" flush with the end of the case.
Let's talk wadcutters......
I never found them that much more accurate, just more sharply defined holes in the paper. I guess because they are seated so low you can use really small powder charges and that saves some $$$. I have very good luck with 158SWC and they are definately more accurate for me at the longer ranges.
What has been the experience with the rest of you?????

spacecoast · December 13, 2010, 11:49 AM

Not sure what you mean by longer ranges, but Bullseye shooting is done at 50 yards (one handed to boot) and wadcutters are very commonly used for that. The bullet drop is greater with the lower velocity, but it's not much and it's easy to compensate for. They still cut nice holes at 50.

Kevin Rohrer · December 13, 2010, 01:18 PM

There is no reason to crimp this round, no matter how deep or shallow you chose to seat it.

When I loaded wadcutters, I always seated them with some lead showing. I did this so that it was easier to shove the rounds into the cylinder. Seating the bullet flush with the case mouth makes it a smidgen harder to do that.

kraigwy · December 13, 2010, 01:23 PM

I use double ended WCs for target shooting. I load them flush with the mouth of the case.............I have to, I shoot then in a S&W Model 52, if ANY of the bullet sticks out of the case the the pistol wont function.

I do use a tiny bit of a taper crimp just for giggles to hold the bullet, but not enough to deform the bullet.

Sid · December 14, 2010, 10:34 AM

I load all .38 wadcutters, either DE or HBWC, flush with the mouth of the case and apply a small taper crimp. They feed equally well in a Model 52 or any revolver.

wncchester · December 23, 2010, 01:42 PM

"Any opinions? Would you load it flush or leave the end poking out as I have?"

You are way over-thinking this and so are your friends at the range. What you're shooting is a low pressure, low velocity load. Seating depth is NOT critical in such a load and your own experience is telling you that; leave it alone.

The only reason to "crimp" such loads is to help igniton/burn. Otherwise, all you need to do is use the crimper to remove the belling enough for easy chambering.

salvadore · December 24, 2010, 04:50 PM

I load mine out much like SL1 does for the same reason. If you load the DEWC with the sprue side up you have a perfect base...info only.

bluetopper · December 26, 2010, 11:01 AM

I seat mine at the crimp groove, that's what it's for.
If you have a 38 semi auto target gun, seat them flush.

Hard cast wadcutters pack a helluva wallop in full house 357's too.

December 5, 2010, 06:50 PM	#1
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	How deep would you load this .38 spc wadcutter? Our local bullet maker sells a .38 special 148 gr. DEWC (flat on both ends) that I've been using for target shooting without a problem - it cuts beautiful round holes every time from a variety of guns. Diameter is .357" and height is .567" (to my best ability to measure it). I've been reloading this bullet to the crimp groove and applying a mild crimp for a COL of 1.22", but some of the folks I've run into at the range have been surprised that I don't push it down all the way flush with the top of the case. I've been using mild target loads of 3.0 gr. AA#2 or 2.7 gr. Titegroup, no problems at all and the accuracy is good. Any opinions? Would you load it flush or leave the end poking out as I have? If flush, would you crimp? If flush, would the powder load change or stay the same?

December 5, 2010, 07:52 PM	#3
Wag Senior Member Join Date: October 22, 2010 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 988	If you have the groove, you should use it. I load HBWC flush but it's recommended that way by the manufacturer. --Wag-- __________________ "Great genius will always encounter fierce opposition from mediocre minds." --Albert Einstein.

December 5, 2010, 08:04 PM	#5
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	Thanks for asking our advice. If you seat deeper, have the same degree of crimp and the same powder load, you will get higher pressure. Approximately proportional to the reduction in interior volume of the case, which will vary depending on the interior shape of the case. I have heard that many wadcutters are loaded flush because they feed through the Semi-automatic 38 special target guns better that way. With revolvers, that feature is irrelevant, but if I had never seen a SWC with exposed lead, I would wonder, just as your range-mates have. I figure the crimping groove is there for crimping, so full depth or with a little exposed lead would be up to your load development and what your gun likes better. No crimp at all is also an option. If you get good ignition, a reliable burn and your (unfired) bullets stay in place during recoil there is no reason not to forego the crimp. Your brass will last longer. Lost Sheep

December 5, 2010, 10:36 PM	#9
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	I load 'em just like you have pictured -- currently using 3.0 grains of American Select. Load them flush if you have a S&W 52 or whatever that Colt semiauto was (Gold Cup Nat'l Match?) __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

December 6, 2010, 06:34 AM	#10
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	While it's hard to mess with success, it would also be nice to avoid the extra crimping operation as well as wear/tear on the brass, so I think I will load a box with the bullets pushed a little deeper to avoid having an unsightly gap around the crimp groove, something like shown below, and apply no crimp. COL is about 1.197". I'll take them to the range and see if there is any affect on accuracy or ignition compared to what I've been loading. I'm thinking ignition should be fine with the long cylindrical bearing surface provided by this bullet, which tends to grip the case tightly anyway. Thanks for all the thoughtful replies and ideas. Last edited by spacecoast; December 6, 2010 at 06:42 AM.

December 5, 2010, 07:53 PM	#4
DogoDon Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2010 Location: Charlotte, NC Posts: 368	FWIW, I usually load my 148 grain WCs to almost flush, with a COL of about 1.175", and just a little bit of crimp. I've run into problems loading to a longer COL like you indicated -- the rounds tended to not seat all the way into the cylinders in my S&W 64. I especially like a load of about 2.7 grains or so of Clays with this cartridge. DD

December 5, 2010, 08:17 PM	#6
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	I load my wadcutters so that they are seated-out far enough to get into the cylinder throats in revolvers, even the ones that are designed to be seated flush. The intent is to get bullet alignment as good as possible before the round is fired. Many years ago, that showed an improvement in accuracy in my tests, using soft swaged wadcutters. Of course, they won't feed in autoloaders when seated like that. So, I say don't change a thing if they are accurate the way you are loading them. You probably can't make them any better. SL1

December 5, 2010, 08:33 PM	#7
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	I load HBWC flush with the case mouth because they will not fit in the S&W M-52 magazine if you don't. For DEWC like you show, I seat to the crimp groove like you do. For light target loads I am able to use a taper crimp to just close the flare created for bullet seating. Bullet movement from recoil doesn't require a crimp, and with easy to ignite fast burning powders a taper crimp is sufficient.

December 5, 2010, 10:26 PM	#8
chiefr Senior Member Join Date: January 27, 2010 Location: AR Posts: 1,401	I am with DongoDon & Jepp2; flush w/ little crimp. I get exceptional accuracy with 2.8g Bullseye.

December 13, 2010, 07:20 AM	#11
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	I'm happy to say that shooting-wise, I can't detect any difference between the longer crimped round and the shorter uncrimped one. I tested both at 25 yards and didn't see any significant difference in accuracy or recoil. As I suspected, the crimp isn't necessary at all to hold the round in place, at least with the process I am using. I tried disassembling the dummy round I made for the pic and haven't been able to budge it using a ballistic puller. Tight! BTW, I stopped at Harbor Freight over the weekend and picked up the CenTech 6" digital caliper using the coupon in the latest American Rifleman. I'm not usually keen about the Chinese stuff, but this is a sweet caliper (mm/in scales accurate to .001", resolution to .0005"/.01mm) considering that I got it for $10, extra battery included. Last edited by spacecoast; December 13, 2010 at 08:12 AM.

December 13, 2010, 11:37 AM	#12
bighead46 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Posts: 140	Well it is what ever works but I believe the standard method is "almost" flush with the end of the case. Let's talk wadcutters...... I never found them that much more accurate, just more sharply defined holes in the paper. I guess because they are seated so low you can use really small powder charges and that saves some $$$. I have very good luck with 158SWC and they are definately more accurate for me at the longer ranges. What has been the experience with the rest of you?????

December 13, 2010, 11:49 AM	#13
spacecoast Senior Member Join Date: October 14, 2009 Location: Sunshine and Keystone States Posts: 4,461	Not sure what you mean by longer ranges, but Bullseye shooting is done at 50 yards (one handed to boot) and wadcutters are very commonly used for that. The bullet drop is greater with the lower velocity, but it's not much and it's easy to compensate for. They still cut nice holes at 50.

December 13, 2010, 01:18 PM	#14
Kevin Rohrer Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2010 Location: Medina, Ohio Posts: 1,049	There is no reason to crimp this round, no matter how deep or shallow you chose to seat it. When I loaded wadcutters, I always seated them with some lead showing. I did this so that it was easier to shove the rounds into the cylinder. Seating the bullet flush with the case mouth makes it a smidgen harder to do that. __________________ Member: Orange Gunsite Family, NRA--Life, ARTCA, and American Legion. Caveat Emptor: Cavery Grips/AmericanGripz/Prestige Grips/Stealth Grips from Clayton, NC. He is a scammer

December 13, 2010, 01:23 PM	#15
kraigwy Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2008 Location: Wyoming Posts: 11,061	I use double ended WCs for target shooting. I load them flush with the mouth of the case.............I have to, I shoot then in a S&W Model 52, if ANY of the bullet sticks out of the case the the pistol wont function. I do use a tiny bit of a taper crimp just for giggles to hold the bullet, but not enough to deform the bullet. __________________ Kraig Stuart CPT USAR Ret USAMU Sniper School Distinguished Rifle Badge 1071

December 14, 2010, 10:34 AM	#16
Sid Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2009 Posts: 362	I load all .38 wadcutters, either DE or HBWC, flush with the mouth of the case and apply a small taper crimp. They feed equally well in a Model 52 or any revolver.

December 23, 2010, 01:42 PM	#17
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	"Any opinions? Would you load it flush or leave the end poking out as I have?" You are way over-thinking this and so are your friends at the range. What you're shooting is a low pressure, low velocity load. Seating depth is NOT critical in such a load and your own experience is telling you that; leave it alone. The only reason to "crimp" such loads is to help igniton/burn. Otherwise, all you need to do is use the crimper to remove the belling enough for easy chambering.

December 24, 2010, 04:50 PM	#18
salvadore Junior member Join Date: January 1, 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,282	I load mine out much like SL1 does for the same reason. If you load the DEWC with the sprue side up you have a perfect base...info only.

December 26, 2010, 11:01 AM	#19
bluetopper Senior Member Join Date: December 16, 2005 Location: Northeast TX Posts: 1,197	I seat mine at the crimp groove, that's what it's for. If you have a 38 semi auto target gun, seat them flush. Hard cast wadcutters pack a helluva wallop in full house 357's too.