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Old February 19, 2011, 09:44 PM   #101
BigBob3006
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Microman,

Do you love your wife and kids? Want to do some thing nice for them? Buy more insurance, sell your .45 ACP and carry the 9mm.

The L.A. County S.O. switched to 9mm, when they first got rid of their .38 revolvers.
Incident one, a holdup man at a 7-11 took 27 hits from round nosed FMJ 9mm. He finally went down when a deputy used his shotgun for a baseball bat and hit the guy in the back of the head.
Incident two, two deputies stopped a car load of gang bangers who opened fire on them. Both deputies fired a total of four 15 round magazines before they died. All gang bangers were wounded, but none died

After these and several other incidents where lawmen were wounded, crippled or killed, the department switched to the Government Model Colt in .45 ACP. Very quietly most departments across the nation did the same thing.

Lets have a roll call. What sidearm is your department using. I don't know of one that still carries a 9mm.

My personal carry weapon is a Colt Combat Commander. In my law enforcement years I've had to use my sidearm in the line of duty. And once when I was off duty. I have a lot of fun when I get a chest x-ray. They're just not use to seeing two bullets in a x-ray.
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Old February 19, 2011, 10:33 PM   #102
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I am sure that the LASD and LAPD never went to the "Govenrment Model Colt 45". And I was working down there at the time. LAPD transitioned first with S&W 45s then the Beretta 45s. LASD followed a couple years later with 45s, mainly Ruger and H&K and S&W. On LAPD SWAT and SIS were the only part of the department using Colt 1911 45s. That's changed slightly now.

The question was, is the 9mm enough, and I think it is. If you practice. 40 and 45 are better but the 9mm is enough for SD.
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Old February 20, 2011, 01:03 AM   #103
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NYPD, LAPD, Miami Dade PD carry 9mm.
That's a negative...MOST carry .40

They let you pick and choose from a list of certain firearms and calibers BUT you HAVE to qualify with that very same gun.

SIG
H&K
M&P
Glock

Some 1911's too...You'll see on a police officers hip in Miami. Haven't seen too many 9's on my buddies.
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Old February 20, 2011, 02:36 AM   #104
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So you're talking about Miami, specifically, then? (Sorry, the section you quoted also mentions NYPD and LAPD.)

9mm is on the approved caliber list for my department, but I don't know anyone who uses it. There's a built in bias against it, since our qual course uses IPSC scoring and 9mm shooters are graded for minor power factor.
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Old February 20, 2011, 11:09 AM   #105
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I'm talking about what I know HorseSoldier! lol but that's nice to know some more facts. Didn't know about NYPD or LAPD. 9mm IS a lot less used than it used to be in our police departments.
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Old February 20, 2011, 01:00 PM   #106
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YES!

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Old February 20, 2011, 03:10 PM   #107
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Using round nose or ball ammo in a 9mm is a recipe for disaster. 20+ years ago, it was common practice but too many bad guys didn't go down when shot.

Now, we have far more technologically advanced ammo which will do the job just fine. Even a .380 is now FAR more effective than it once was because of improvements in ammunition tech.

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Old February 20, 2011, 03:37 PM   #108
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I'm talking about what I know HorseSoldier!
I thought you were speaking from personal experience down in FL, just making sure since I don't know much about NYPD or LAPD but thought they did things a little differently than described.
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Old February 20, 2011, 04:28 PM   #109
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For get the little .45 and 9mm get a 600 nitro express. Thats funny how alot of guys with a .45 acp and .40 say the 9mm aint enough. There aint that much difference with good ammo all are within 100 ft pounds on average big deal if a 9mm aint enough then neither is the .45
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Old February 20, 2011, 04:30 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by HorseSoldier View Post
I thought you were speaking from personal experience down in FL, just making sure since I don't know much about NYPD or LAPD but thought they did things a little differently than described.
I am speaking from personal experience down in Miami, Florida
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Old February 20, 2011, 10:00 PM   #111
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I assume you mean the FBI Miami shootout in 1986? A single 9mm Winchester Silvertip that stopped just an inch short of a perp's heart was apparently to blame for that whole fiasco, not any of the other 60+ rounds fired by the agents. A .45ACP round could just as likely have failed to penetrate far enough in that situation. The real cause for the mess was agents who brought handguns to a rifle match. I honestly don't think the results would've been any different had all the agents been armed with 1911s.
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Old February 20, 2011, 10:12 PM   #112
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9mm was a convenient scapegoat to blame for poor (or a complete lack of) planning by the agents involved, serious flaws in terms of mindset, and more systemic problems with the FBI's approach to training and tactical operations at the time. Nobody had to lose their job when a bullet is to blame . . .
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Old February 20, 2011, 11:02 PM   #113
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The real faul IMHO is the agents thought they were up to taking on some pretty fresh ex-military. If they had rifles it would probably been somewhat different but not worlds different.

But thats just me.
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Old February 20, 2011, 11:09 PM   #114
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If you guys choose calibers by the popularity it has with government agencies, then 9mm would almost certainly be your pick. Is there a more popular service caliber worldwide? Does the USA know something the rest of the world doesn't know when it comes to calibers? Do only government agencies in the USA shoot people with any success? If you feel the 9mm is not enough, do you feel that most government agencies around the world are under-armed and are having terrible results with their pistols?

I'm waiting for someone to explain in detail how a half of a tenth of an inch (.40), or a tenth of an inch (.45) makes any difference in the end result of a shooting. Will all of what escapes the body in that half of tenth of an inch change the end result of a shooting? I don't think so.
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Old February 20, 2011, 11:11 PM   #115
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Yes, it's more than adequate.
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Old February 20, 2011, 11:23 PM   #116
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Microman - You did not state the purpose of the round.

What specific need do you have?
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Old February 21, 2011, 05:51 PM   #117
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The 9x19 is fine. As previously stated, the advancements with projectile technology has paved the road for quite a few very potent and more than satisfactory loadings. If in makes you feel better you can always alternate different loadings in your magazine , though I'm sure Mr. Criminal won't mind.

Still, there is no miraculous cartridge out there that will automatically save you. propper load, shot placement, practice and discipline go a long way.
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Old February 21, 2011, 08:33 PM   #118
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Quote:
The real cause for the mess was agents who brought handguns to a rifle match. I honestly don't think the results would've been any different had all the agents been armed with 1911s.
Platt all by himself did an awful lot of damage with a Mini-14 with 30 round mags. Saying it was .223 vs. 9mm/.38/buckshot isn't the whole picture either. The fact that it was also a shoulder fired weapon capable of producing repeatable accurate hits with deeper ammo reserve was a force multiplier against agents handguns and pump shotguns. Today local, State and Federal law enforcement is much more open to issuing AR's due to events like Miami and N. Hollywood.
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Old February 22, 2011, 12:15 AM   #119
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Anyone see the video of the guy shooting up the school board meeting several months ago. I got the impression that the hero in the back shot him with a 9mm. 3 shots in the guy and he was still conscious and shooting. Anyone have more detail? that video bummed me out on the 9mm. if I wasn't convinced before that video.....its 45s for me now, for sure.
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Old February 22, 2011, 12:22 AM   #120
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Shot placement....shot placement.....and one more time ...shot placement:d
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Old February 22, 2011, 12:26 AM   #121
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Of course the 9mm is enough gun. That said I enjoy shotting the .40 s&W better. I'm good with the 40 so thats what I carry..
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Old February 22, 2011, 01:08 AM   #122
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I still get annoyed when I hear the term shot placement. The term implies someone is going to be able to deliberately "place" a bullet in a precise location. Were not talking about a target range, were talking about a moving ducking darting 3 dimensional target who is fighting back trying to kill you, very likely in low light conditions, while your heart is thumping a thousand beats a minute.

Where your bullet ends up is likely going to be luck. I remember seeing a video of some guy who tried to shoot a lawyer he was angry at in broad daylight. The lawyer was standing right in front of him darting back and forth trying to stay out of the muzzles line of sight, while the would be killer emptied his six shot revolver, missing every single shot.

How many police shootings do we hear about where the cops fire like 14 rounds at the suspect, and miss every single one. I bet if you analyzed the statistics of all known police shootings, you would find a hit percentage of less than 20%. Thats just hitting your target, nevermind hitting him in a specific location.
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Old February 22, 2011, 01:12 AM   #123
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Then...practice, practice, practice.
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Old February 22, 2011, 07:07 AM   #124
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Trigger Finger,

Thanks for helping get me straight about which model pistol LA went to.I pulled that from memory, which is a slippery slope for me. They say getting old will do tha to you. If getting old will do it, what will happen when you are old. One nice thing about it though, I don't embarass my kids by tell their friends the stunts they pulled. I can't remember that either.
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Old February 22, 2011, 07:23 AM   #125
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To the original poster, why don't you just keep the .45? Remember, however, that the reputation of the .45 was built on a 230 grain full metal jacket fired from a 5-inch barrel. And no one ever complained about the effectiveness of that cartridge, not even Elmer Keith.
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