Any bayonet experts ?

adamc · March 20, 2013, 07:44 PM

Any bayonet experts ?

My father brought home from Korea, what I thought was an M1 bayonet.
Found it in a box of stuff while cleaning out.
He never talked about any of the guns & stuff to us, only the 'War stories'.
I searched the internet and found an M1 bayonet not even close to what he had.

It looks to be a type of machete
14 1/2 " oal, 10" blade
6" blood channel, 1 1/8 wide blade

I have tried to post pics, but am not able to

mete · March 20, 2013, 08:06 PM

There is no such thing as a "blood groove" on a knife.It has nothing to do with blood .It's called a "fuller"

Winchester_73 · March 20, 2013, 08:11 PM

Well if not American, it might be a Mauser bayonet. Can you post the markings and pics?

zbones6 · March 20, 2013, 09:07 PM

Well, the term "blood groove" does have some meaning. The "fuller" is a groove that makes a sword/large blade lighter. The blood groove is designed to reduce section so that as you pull a bayonet/knife out of...something, the suction does not pull...stuff...out with it. However, according to my grandfather who served in the Pacific Theater, it didnt always work.

tahunua001 · March 20, 2013, 09:11 PM

pics please...
pictures would help identify...

MikeG · March 20, 2013, 10:09 PM

The bayonet could also be Japanese. The Chicoms and Norks had a lot of left overs from WWII that they used in the Korean War.

Buzzcook · March 20, 2013, 10:50 PM

There are, or were some bolo(machete) bayonets, afaik all predate WWII let alone Korea.. None that I know of had a fuller or blood channel.

Look through the pics here maybe you'll find what you have.
http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Ide...ion_guide.html

I do have a few bayonets but I'm not an expert by any means.

adamc · March 21, 2013, 06:46 AM

some pictures.. I figured out how to do it, by resaving them "smaller"

mapsjanhere · March 21, 2013, 07:41 AM

Well, lets start by what it doesn't have - any kind of way of mounting it to a gun. It also doesn't have any holes in the tang where the grips were riveted or screwed on. To me it looks like the blank for a bayonet, before the grove for the mount were cut etc.

adamc · March 21, 2013, 09:15 AM

well
I don't know how he would get a blank..

although I did have Uncles who did work for several gun companies
AFTER WW2. Marlin, Mossberg, and Winchester

did any of these make bayonets ?

BoogieMan · March 21, 2013, 11:49 AM

I would say that its a blank. Interesting none the less.

mapsjanhere · March 21, 2013, 04:25 PM

If you look at this drawing of an exploded Garand bayonet, you can see the connection

Buzzcook · March 21, 2013, 05:28 PM

Winchester did make bayonets. Don't know if they made them into WWII. The ones I know of date from between the civil war and WWI.

RJay · March 21, 2013, 07:50 PM

After WWII there were surplus up the kazoo that people were trying to figure out a way to make money on it. Using tanks and jeeps to pull plows, one hardware store even used bayonet blanks welded to a frame, hooked up to a long handle to make a weed " hoe". With the millions of tons of military surplus. and left over parts from cancelled contracts, I don't find it surprising that a bayonet blank would be loose in the market, they were probably selling them for 50 cents a piece to make your own "hunting knife". I'm quite sure ther were tons of blanks that wound up in the junk yard as scrape. Remember, they were even pushing crated Jeeps and Trucks overboard because the cost of retuning them to the US was more than their value.Let me amend this, in the 1950's it only cost 10 cents to get in to the movies, so they were probably selling those for 5 cents apiece.

Winchester_73 · March 22, 2013, 07:25 PM

There were 4 main M1 garand bayonet types. The first type is the 16in aka long bayonets. I think these were discontinued around 1942 or 1943 in favor of 10 in versions. For the 10in versions, some were made as 10 in bayonets and others were cut down from unissued 16in bayonets. The cut ones will have the blood groove aka fuller go all the way up the blade where as the "m1 bayonet" (I don't know the exact name) will have the blood groove stop, as pictured below and as pictured by the OP. The 4th type is the Korean war m5 type, which had the M4 bayonet (for m1 carbine) blade. That blade type was also shared by the m3 fighting knife, the m6 bayonet for the m14, and of course the m7 bayonet for the M16.

Winchester never made any garand bayonets. I know Winchester made P17 aka 30-06 Enfield bayonets (I had one - these also fit the 1897 Winchester trenchguns) and I think they made bayonets for the Russian contract model 1895 Winchesters. M1 garand bayonet makers included but are not limited to: Pal, AFH (American For and Hoe), Utica, UFH ( Union Fork and Hoe), OL (Oneida Limited), and WT (Wild Drop Forge and Tool)

James K · March 24, 2013, 05:16 PM

It is a forging for the M1 bayonet*. Many machining operations would have been needed to complete it. It could have come from any of the factories making the M1 bayonet just before or during WWII, but not from Winchester, which never made the M1.

* The M1 bayonet and M1 rifle are not directly connected except in the coincidence of the nomenclature. The Bayonet Knife, M1, was issued from the late 1930's into the 1960's. It fitted, and was issued with, the M1, the M1903, the M1903A3 and M1903A4 rifles. It was superseded for the M1 rifle by the M5 bayonet.

FWIW, the "blood groove" is a basic training myth; it is properly called a "fuller" and is intended to lighten and stiffen the blade, not to allow the victim's blood to come out.

Jim

Slamfire · March 25, 2013, 09:32 AM

That is very interesting. I have never seen a rough forging of a bayonet blank before and how anyone in the service got one, would make an interesting tale.

Things like this would have stayed in the factory or gone into the scrap bin.

RJay · March 25, 2013, 08:14 PM

Well, just because he was in the service doesn't mean he acquired that forging in service, odds are , he didn't. He might have found it in a junkyard, peons like me used to visit junkyards all the time, I didn't even know there were auto parts stores, all our car parts come from junk yards, and these yards used to be places of wonder. This happens frequently, Someones father or grandfather was in the service, after their passing, something is found in their effects, hence it has to be something he was issued in the service. In 99 per-cent of the cases it was something unrelated to military service and just an item that the deceased picked up somewhere in their many years of life. Of course that is JMHO.

James K · March 26, 2013, 04:27 PM

It is possible the forging did come from Korea; at one time, the U.S. Army had something called "offshore procurement" which meant buying a lot of equipment from allied countries, including Germany, Japan and Korea. I don't know if Korea made M1 bayonets, either for the U.S. or for their own use (they did have M1 rifles obtained under military assistance programs), but I do know they later cut the blades of their bayonets to 5"; quite a few of those were sold on the U.S. market.

Jim

March 20, 2013, 07:44 PM	#1
adamc Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Location: Stalingrad Connecticut Posts: 216	Any bayonet experts ? Any bayonet experts ? My father brought home from Korea, what I thought was an M1 bayonet. Found it in a box of stuff while cleaning out. He never talked about any of the guns & stuff to us, only the 'War stories'. I searched the internet and found an M1 bayonet not even close to what he had. It looks to be a type of machete 14 1/2 " oal, 10" blade 6" blood channel, 1 1/8 wide blade I have tried to post pics, but am not able to __________________ ** NRA Life Member *** Connecticut was the Cradle of the Gun Industry, NOW it is just a Pine Box, Courtesy of our Governor "Chairman MAO Malloy"

March 20, 2013, 08:06 PM	#2
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	There is no such thing as a "blood groove" on a knife.It has nothing to do with blood .It's called a "fuller" __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

March 20, 2013, 08:11 PM	#3
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Well if not American, it might be a Mauser bayonet. Can you post the markings and pics? __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

March 20, 2013, 09:07 PM	#4
zbones6 Member Join Date: December 29, 2011 Posts: 91	Blood Groove Well, the term "blood groove" does have some meaning. The "fuller" is a groove that makes a sword/large blade lighter. The blood groove is designed to reduce section so that as you pull a bayonet/knife out of...something, the suction does not pull...stuff...out with it. However, according to my grandfather who served in the Pacific Theater, it didnt always work.

March 20, 2013, 09:11 PM	#5
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	pics please... pictures would help identify... __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

March 20, 2013, 10:09 PM	#6
MikeG Senior Member Join Date: April 2, 2002 Location: Falcon Colorado Posts: 256	The bayonet could also be Japanese. The Chicoms and Norks had a lot of left overs from WWII that they used in the Korean War.

March 20, 2013, 10:50 PM	#7
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	There are, or were some bolo(machete) bayonets, afaik all predate WWII let alone Korea.. None that I know of had a fuller or blood channel. Look through the pics here maybe you'll find what you have. http://worldbayonets.com/Bayonet_Ide...ion_guide.html I do have a few bayonets but I'm not an expert by any means.

March 21, 2013, 07:41 AM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Well, lets start by what it doesn't have - any kind of way of mounting it to a gun. It also doesn't have any holes in the tang where the grips were riveted or screwed on. To me it looks like the blank for a bayonet, before the grove for the mount were cut etc. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

March 21, 2013, 09:15 AM	#10
adamc Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2013 Location: Stalingrad Connecticut Posts: 216	well I don't know how he would get a blank.. although I did have Uncles who did work for several gun companies AFTER WW2. Marlin, Mossberg, and Winchester did any of these make bayonets ? __________________ ** NRA Life Member *** Connecticut was the Cradle of the Gun Industry, NOW it is just a Pine Box, Courtesy of our Governor "Chairman MAO Malloy"

March 21, 2013, 11:49 AM	#11
BoogieMan Senior Member Join Date: April 4, 2012 Location: South Jersey Posts: 2,217	I would say that its a blank. Interesting none the less. __________________ Concentrated power is not rendered harmless by the good intentions of those who create it. Milton Freidman "If you find yourself in a fair fight,,, Your tactics suck"- Unknown

March 21, 2013, 04:25 PM	#12
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	If you look at this drawing of an exploded Garand bayonet, you can see the connection __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

March 21, 2013, 05:28 PM	#13
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	Winchester did make bayonets. Don't know if they made them into WWII. The ones I know of date from between the civil war and WWI.

March 21, 2013, 07:50 PM	#14
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	After WWII there were surplus up the kazoo that people were trying to figure out a way to make money on it. Using tanks and jeeps to pull plows, one hardware store even used bayonet blanks welded to a frame, hooked up to a long handle to make a weed " hoe". With the millions of tons of military surplus. and left over parts from cancelled contracts, I don't find it surprising that a bayonet blank would be loose in the market, they were probably selling them for 50 cents a piece to make your own "hunting knife". I'm quite sure ther were tons of blanks that wound up in the junk yard as scrape. Remember, they were even pushing crated Jeeps and Trucks overboard because the cost of retuning them to the US was more than their value.Let me amend this, in the 1950's it only cost 10 cents to get in to the movies, so they were probably selling those for 5 cents apiece. __________________ Ron James Last edited by RJay; March 21, 2013 at 08:08 PM.

March 22, 2013, 07:25 PM	#15
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	There were 4 main M1 garand bayonet types. The first type is the 16in aka long bayonets. I think these were discontinued around 1942 or 1943 in favor of 10 in versions. For the 10in versions, some were made as 10 in bayonets and others were cut down from unissued 16in bayonets. The cut ones will have the blood groove aka fuller go all the way up the blade where as the "m1 bayonet" (I don't know the exact name) will have the blood groove stop, as pictured below and as pictured by the OP. The 4th type is the Korean war m5 type, which had the M4 bayonet (for m1 carbine) blade. That blade type was also shared by the m3 fighting knife, the m6 bayonet for the m14, and of course the m7 bayonet for the M16. Winchester never made any garand bayonets. I know Winchester made P17 aka 30-06 Enfield bayonets (I had one - these also fit the 1897 Winchester trenchguns) and I think they made bayonets for the Russian contract model 1895 Winchesters. M1 garand bayonet makers included but are not limited to: Pal, AFH (American For and Hoe), Utica, UFH ( Union Fork and Hoe), OL (Oneida Limited), and WT (Wild Drop Forge and Tool) __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west Last edited by Winchester_73; March 25, 2013 at 12:53 PM.

March 24, 2013, 05:16 PM	#16
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is a forging for the M1 bayonet. Many machining operations would have been needed to complete it. It could have come from any of the factories making the M1 bayonet just before or during WWII, but not from Winchester, which never made the M1. The M1 bayonet and M1 rifle are not directly connected except in the coincidence of the nomenclature. The Bayonet Knife, M1, was issued from the late 1930's into the 1960's. It fitted, and was issued with, the M1, the M1903, the M1903A3 and M1903A4 rifles. It was superseded for the M1 rifle by the M5 bayonet. FWIW, the "blood groove" is a basic training myth; it is properly called a "fuller" and is intended to lighten and stiffen the blade, not to allow the victim's blood to come out. Jim Last edited by James K; March 24, 2013 at 05:22 PM.

March 25, 2013, 09:32 AM	#17
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	That is very interesting. I have never seen a rough forging of a bayonet blank before and how anyone in the service got one, would make an interesting tale. Things like this would have stayed in the factory or gone into the scrap bin. __________________ If I'm not shooting, I'm reloading.

March 25, 2013, 08:14 PM	#18
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Well, just because he was in the service doesn't mean he acquired that forging in service, odds are , he didn't. He might have found it in a junkyard, peons like me used to visit junkyards all the time, I didn't even know there were auto parts stores, all our car parts come from junk yards, and these yards used to be places of wonder. This happens frequently, Someones father or grandfather was in the service, after their passing, something is found in their effects, hence it has to be something he was issued in the service. In 99 per-cent of the cases it was something unrelated to military service and just an item that the deceased picked up somewhere in their many years of life. Of course that is JMHO. __________________ Ron James

March 26, 2013, 04:27 PM	#19
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	It is possible the forging did come from Korea; at one time, the U.S. Army had something called "offshore procurement" which meant buying a lot of equipment from allied countries, including Germany, Japan and Korea. I don't know if Korea made M1 bayonets, either for the U.S. or for their own use (they did have M1 rifles obtained under military assistance programs), but I do know they later cut the blades of their bayonets to 5"; quite a few of those were sold on the U.S. market. Jim