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January 4, 2013, 03:44 PM | #151 |
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One major problem in this argument is the argument has long been framed by "our" lobbying representatives as 2A is a gift from the founders. That is not what the founders intended for sure. 2A is an acknowledgement of a natural right which can not morally be infringed upon and the establishment of a rule to impede such infringements.
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January 4, 2013, 04:23 PM | #152 |
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Yes, really.
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January 4, 2013, 04:36 PM | #153 | |
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However, I disagree about government. It is absolutely a necessary evil. Power corrupts. Government is power. Many individuals and certainly the beast as a whole are massively corrupt.
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January 4, 2013, 10:38 PM | #154 | |
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Let's also bear in mind that the vast majority of LEO's and soldiers I've met would leave their posts if their orders began to contravene their oath to uphold the Constitution. A despotic government would quickly find itself understaffed and insulated.
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January 4, 2013, 11:08 PM | #155 |
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Some people seem to have the image of a rag tag force of people with hunting rifles and a few ARs facing tanks and helicopter gun ships.
You can't enforce a police state with fighter jets, tanks, drones, etc. You need boots on the ground. The bullet proof head hasn't been invented yet. Most body armor can't stop high powered rifle bullets at fairly close range. People with rifles and improvised weapons can't get to the modern military and hurt them? Insurgents get to the high tech modern military all the time in Afghanistan and Iraq. Not to mention politicians. Speaking of politicians, what are all the politicians going to do during a hypothetical USA insurrection, live in tanks and underground bunkers, or play dodge the .308? No, 100,000,000 firearms in a country where there are 1,500,000 military and Law Enforcement personnel combined total, is a credible threat. Even if only 1% of the 100,000,000 firearms owners took part in insurrection, it would be a bloody mess. Like I've said before, insurrection, revolution, whatever one wants to call it is unlikely. However, to say that a citizenry armed with high powered rifles, isn't a threat to a tyrannical police state, is absolutely wrong.
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January 5, 2013, 01:48 AM | #156 | |
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I would not follow such orders: You have to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything. |
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January 5, 2013, 01:56 AM | #157 |
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Keep posting. The NSA is taking names and you'll be the first ones thrown in jail.
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January 5, 2013, 02:38 AM | #158 |
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To say that one person could kill 30 without being taken (assuming that is a reference to the semi-auto, hi cap mag theory), is incorrect to a degree. Had one person been a law abiding, ccw weapon carrier who owned, carried and practiced with their well maintained firearm, wouldn't that put a quick and decisive end to that thought?
The fact that must be included in any movie theater, gun free school zone, or shopping mall shooting spree is, they are target zones for the cowards that go there to shoot because they know them to have low or no potential immediate retaliation. Ever see a mass slaying at a gun show, FOP convention, airport, court room, city hall, American Legion Post, etc.? What would be the factor that makes mass killer's stay away? Good people with guns. Bottom line is, the amendment is written broadly for a reason. Arms would include those types of arms relevant to the time.
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January 5, 2013, 02:58 AM | #159 |
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I'm sure now that the NSA was typed, somewhere in DC a computer just kicked on, the hard drive is whirring away and information is being gathered. Fortunately the fiscal cliff will put the employee in charge of reviewing that information out of work.
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January 5, 2013, 08:22 AM | #160 | |
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January 5, 2013, 09:33 AM | #161 | |
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Tom, your local LEOs might take their oath seriously, but I feel pretty confident that those in most larger cities would cheerfully go around confiscating firearms if given the order. I chatted up a city police officer in a Burger King at lunch yesterday while his partner fielded a phone call. My question was about a headline article recommending armed security in schools, but his attitude in responding tells me that his attitude goes beyond schools. "Only the police should be allowed to have guns," was his answer. "There are too many guns out there and too many crazy people." This guy couldn't even form a coherent sentence in English, so I knew I was dealing with an inner city cop. The officers in most of the smaller towns around here have graduated from college, and many have degrees specifically in criminal justice. In the city, they keep lowering the hiring standards so members of various minorities can pass the qualification exam. This guy was proof that their diversity program is successful. |
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January 5, 2013, 11:18 AM | #162 | |
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January 5, 2013, 01:26 PM | #163 | |
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The demise of our Republic would be one. |
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January 5, 2013, 01:33 PM | #164 | |
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January 5, 2013, 01:40 PM | #165 |
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The US military has not operated without a secure rear support area in living memory. That alone makes a HUGE difference. Attack helicopters only work if you have a secure airbase in range of your target to send them from. Planes don't really work all that well at all, especially if your relatively delicate smart munitions factories are facing sabotage.
If the Afghanis with no money, no manufacturing base, minimal external support, AND facing NATO secure rear support areas can mount a successful insurgency, I don't see how US citizens could not possibly do it. "mercenaries" were absolutely deployed in NO following Katrina. More than likely in other domestic situations, but there is a mountain of easily accessible info regarding their deployment following Katrina. Last edited by johnwilliamson062; January 5, 2013 at 03:33 PM. |
January 5, 2013, 11:43 PM | #166 |
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I am in Louisiana. During Katrina, there were police officers and some national guardsmen involved in these home invasions. This is the first I heard of mercenaries.
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January 5, 2013, 11:45 PM | #167 |
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There were mercenaries at gas stations and supermarkets though for sure.
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January 5, 2013, 11:57 PM | #168 | |
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January 6, 2013, 12:15 AM | #169 |
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yeah, they were there. If you look on Wikipedia, you can read about them and see a couple of images.
Everybody went to Katrina. ICE, CBP, the Georgia Guard, myself included, everybody.
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January 6, 2013, 12:24 AM | #170 | |
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It was called "Schindler's List"
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January 6, 2013, 12:30 AM | #171 |
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We are quickly turning our Country into a Chicken Coop, guarded by a Government of Wolves.
I trust the Government, about as far as I can throw Mt. Rushmore. If the Founding Fathers, not sheepdogs but Lions, had come back during our lifetimes and observed the Government, while I would not advocate this as I have experienced War before, I am sure we would be in the middle of the 2nd American Revolution. I am sure the Founding Fathers meant for us the Citizenry to be armed with the weapons of our time, just as they were armed with the weapons of their time.
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January 6, 2013, 08:05 AM | #172 |
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I still haven't made up my mind about what it is about the present governments (of those I live under--there are thousands of others) that I don't like. Perhaps you all (all of you all) could make some suggestions for me to ponder.
Now to whoever it was that mentioned a rouge government: did you mean "red?" I still have lots of problems with people's general thinking on the subject. For instance, if you get rid of all the old politicians (and I think they are in fact all old), then where are you going to get the new one? Are there elections going on that I don't know about? Likewise, the armed forces: where did they come from? Are they not American, too, along with the police, very few of whom are federal. I'm not sure any comparison with Afganistan in any way has any relevance here. My new son-in-law is supposed to be going there within the next few months, so perhaps I can get some inside information from him. In the meantime, my wife's first cousin works in Kabul as a civilian and not for the United States. I think he'll be home sometime in the next month (he's very footloose) and I'll bring up the subject with him if I see him. He has also lived in Yugoslavia before the civil war there and correctly predicted what would happen. He's been in Afganistan for a long time and has even written a book on the subject. I've also heard that firearms laws in Germany were liberalized by Hitler. Can it be that lots of things I've heard are false?
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January 6, 2013, 10:59 AM | #173 | |
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I know these to be true: 1. If you give someone a tool, they'll look for a way to use it. 2. Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power corrupts Absolutely. 3. The most danagerous man is the one who claims to be doing things to you "for your own good." 4. Men are flawed, and the Government is made of men. An all powerful Government by men "for my own good" is about as bad as it gets. |
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January 6, 2013, 11:29 AM | #174 |
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BlueTrain, you offer a false dichotomy. Something you heard does not have to be false (though it could have been). You could have heard or remembered incorrectly; you could have remembered incompletely; you could have added your own assumptions on top of what you heard.
Anybody could have done the same. This is one reason why few things are black and white. I am concerned, though, that you still cannot come up with any expansions of federal power that you do not like. This does make it hard to accept some of your other arguments, as it implies a kool-aid level of big government fandom, and loss of perspective. Hopefully you can come up with some reasonable concerns about federal power grabs, if only to prove you know how to look at things from other perspectives. |
January 6, 2013, 02:51 PM | #175 |
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Are you folks only worried about the federal government or all the others as well? I mention that because I believe there is more corruption at state and local levels, although that does not imply abuse of power. There can be abuses of power with no corruption whatsoever.
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Shoot low, sheriff. They're riding Shetlands! Underneath the starry flag, civilize 'em with a Krag, and return us to our own beloved homes! Buy War Bonds. |
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