Anyone know what this old french side by side is?

ssteve · February 14, 2012, 01:54 PM

Came across this side by side and it doesnt seem to have a manufacture listed on it. It does have several french proof marks on it that seem to place it around 1900-1924, but thats all I could come up with.

oneounceload · February 14, 2012, 03:30 PM

The 17.0 in mm equates to .669, or a 16 gauge
The 65 will indicate 2.5" chambers
I cannot find the proof mark with the PT and Crown, but it should be the proof mark for St. Etienne, at least since 1897

Dave McC · February 14, 2012, 03:43 PM

No expert but...

The 65 is for 65 Millimeters, the chamber length. IOW, this is NOT for 2 3/4" or longer shells. While 2.5" shells are marketed here, best a decent smith looks this over before you try to shoot it.

Also, these barrels barrels may be Damascus or twist steel which translates into "Potential Grenade'.

I'd guess this is a 19th Century gun. Most shotguns were made with internal hammers by 1890.

again, I urge you to let a smith who'd you trust with your fingers and eyes (Because you are) go over this and decide if this is a shotgun or a shotgun shaped artifact.

johnbt · February 15, 2012, 12:08 PM

The crown-PT is French.

www.doublegunshop.com/darne.htm

"PT (Poudre T) surmounted by one crown:
960 kg/cm²
PT surmounted by two crowns:
1370 kg/cm²

*Other nitro powders were also used.
The following marks are commom:
PR, PM, PJ and PS"

johnbt · February 15, 2012, 12:21 PM

It appears that Poudre T was invented in 1899.

John

ssteve · February 15, 2012, 02:28 PM

Anyone know who manufactured it? I am looking to possibly sell it, but not sure where to even look for a value on it.

PetahW · February 15, 2012, 03:07 PM

"Poudre Pyroxylee" on the barrel flats means Nitro Powder.

"65" = 65mm chamber = 2-9/16" LOW-POWERED shells.

The gun was most likely made after 1925, when ammo companies introduced more powerful shotshells loaded with different powders to higher pressures, lengthening most shells & chambers to suit.

The changes of 1925 necessitated marking the long and short chambered barrels differently - before that date, since there WAS no longer ammo, there was no need.

Gun barrels chambered/proved, prior to 1924, would have been marked simply with a "12", "16", etc, maybe enclosed within a diamond or circle with the letter "c".

After 1924, though, gun barrels were required to be marked with the exact length - usually in MM for Euro guns - as in: 16/65, 16/70 (2-3/4"), 12/65, 12/70 & 12/76 (3").

IF a qualified double gunsmith (NOT an 870 parts-changer) OK's it as safe to fire, special, low-powered ammo is available from the likes of RST, PolyWad & others.

As posted above do NOT shoot ANY modern ammo through it - even so-called "low brass" or target loads.

The pressure curve of modern ammo is different, and the almost 100 y.o. metal of that gun is not of the same alloys as today's stronger steels.

It's most likely worth about a max of $200, +/-, since whomever made it wasn't proud enough to put their name on either barrels or lockplate(s).

.

Dave McC · February 15, 2012, 03:41 PM

Guild guns, and this is probably one, were made by consortiums of small shops in Europe. One shop would make the barrels, another the action and so on. Names on these were usually the retailers.

Whatever it is, if it's certified safe, it should make a nice uplander with proper ammo.

HTH.....

TheKlawMan · February 17, 2012, 01:45 AM

What is that on the side of the breech lock? It looks like it says somethingut what I am looking at may be scrolling.

oneounceload · February 17, 2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Guild guns, and this is probably one, were made by consortiums of small shops in Europe. One shop would make the barrels, another the action and so on. Names on these were usually the retailers.

Many of the English "Best" guns were, and still are, made this way

Dave McC · February 17, 2012, 11:53 AM

Some of the best guns ever made were made that way, 1oz. As you know.

Some mediocre ones also. This falls in between, but where?

I hope this passes inspection. With some of Polywad's Vintager loads of proper length and pressure, it should be a delight.

Some older guns have excessive drop. More US guns than Euro. However, if this fits and can be fired, it should be.

Good guns do not have to be new or cost as much as a truck.

oneounceload · February 17, 2012, 02:46 PM

Absolutely, a 2.5" 16 gauge will take a pheasant just as nicely as a Benelli auto or similar, within the respective distance capability of the ammo and the shooter. Some of the finest guns I have ever seen, handles and got to shoot were made in the 20s, 30s, and 50's in small shops in England, Austria, Belgium, and Italy. Sadly, they were (and still are), out of my financial stratosphere, but the workmanship is something to behold

Dave McC · February 18, 2012, 07:30 PM

I had one, a French boxlock by an unknown maker, Didier. You'd have liked it.

Guild guns were dufflebagged back to the US circa 1945, and many were and are good using shotguns.

Some are not, and most have been cursed by The Demon of Short Chambers.

With that problem resolved, they make great shooters mostly, though the mandatory inspection by a smith is even more needed.

February 14, 2012, 01:54 PM	#1
ssteve Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2012 Posts: 3	Anyone know what this old french side by side is? Came across this side by side and it doesnt seem to have a manufacture listed on it. It does have several french proof marks on it that seem to place it around 1900-1924, but thats all I could come up with.

February 15, 2012, 03:07 PM	#7
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	"Poudre Pyroxylee" on the barrel flats means Nitro Powder. "65" = 65mm chamber = 2-9/16" LOW-POWERED shells. The gun was most likely made after 1925, when ammo companies introduced more powerful shotshells loaded with different powders to higher pressures, lengthening most shells & chambers to suit. The changes of 1925 necessitated marking the long and short chambered barrels differently - before that date, since there WAS no longer ammo, there was no need. Gun barrels chambered/proved, prior to 1924, would have been marked simply with a "12", "16", etc, maybe enclosed within a diamond or circle with the letter "c". After 1924, though, gun barrels were required to be marked with the exact length - usually in MM for Euro guns - as in: 16/65, 16/70 (2-3/4"), 12/65, 12/70 & 12/76 (3"). IF a qualified double gunsmith (NOT an 870 parts-changer) OK's it as safe to fire, special, low-powered ammo is available from the likes of RST, PolyWad & others. As posted above do NOT shoot ANY modern ammo through it - even so-called "low brass" or target loads. The pressure curve of modern ammo is different, and the almost 100 y.o. metal of that gun is not of the same alloys as today's stronger steels. It's most likely worth about a max of $200, +/-, since whomever made it wasn't proud enough to put their name on either barrels or lockplate(s). . Last edited by PetahW; February 15, 2012 at 03:27 PM.

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February 14, 2012, 03:30 PM	#2
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	The 17.0 in mm equates to .669, or a 16 gauge The 65 will indicate 2.5" chambers I cannot find the proof mark with the PT and Crown, but it should be the proof mark for St. Etienne, at least since 1897

February 14, 2012, 03:43 PM	#3
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	No expert but... The 65 is for 65 Millimeters, the chamber length. IOW, this is NOT for 2 3/4" or longer shells. While 2.5" shells are marketed here, best a decent smith looks this over before you try to shoot it. Also, these barrels barrels may be Damascus or twist steel which translates into "Potential Grenade'. I'd guess this is a 19th Century gun. Most shotguns were made with internal hammers by 1890. again, I urge you to let a smith who'd you trust with your fingers and eyes (Because you are) go over this and decide if this is a shotgun or a shotgun shaped artifact.

February 15, 2012, 12:08 PM	#4
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	The crown-PT is French. www.doublegunshop.com/darne.htm "PT (Poudre T) surmounted by one crown: 960 kg/cm² PT surmounted by two crowns: 1370 kg/cm² *Other nitro powders were also used. The following marks are commom: PR, PM, PJ and PS"

February 15, 2012, 12:21 PM	#5
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	It appears that Poudre T was invented in 1899. John

February 15, 2012, 02:28 PM	#6
ssteve Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2012 Posts: 3	Anyone know who manufactured it? I am looking to possibly sell it, but not sure where to even look for a value on it.

February 15, 2012, 03:41 PM	#8
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Guild guns, and this is probably one, were made by consortiums of small shops in Europe. One shop would make the barrels, another the action and so on. Names on these were usually the retailers. Whatever it is, if it's certified safe, it should make a nice uplander with proper ammo. HTH.....

February 17, 2012, 01:45 AM	#9
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	What is that on the side of the breech lock? It looks like it says somethingut what I am looking at may be scrolling.

February 17, 2012, 11:53 AM	#11
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Some of the best guns ever made were made that way, 1oz. As you know. Some mediocre ones also. This falls in between, but where? I hope this passes inspection. With some of Polywad's Vintager loads of proper length and pressure, it should be a delight. Some older guns have excessive drop. More US guns than Euro. However, if this fits and can be fired, it should be. Good guns do not have to be new or cost as much as a truck.

February 17, 2012, 02:46 PM	#12
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Absolutely, a 2.5" 16 gauge will take a pheasant just as nicely as a Benelli auto or similar, within the respective distance capability of the ammo and the shooter. Some of the finest guns I have ever seen, handles and got to shoot were made in the 20s, 30s, and 50's in small shops in England, Austria, Belgium, and Italy. Sadly, they were (and still are), out of my financial stratosphere, but the workmanship is something to behold

February 18, 2012, 07:30 PM	#13
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I had one, a French boxlock by an unknown maker, Didier. You'd have liked it. Guild guns were dufflebagged back to the US circa 1945, and many were and are good using shotguns. Some are not, and most have been cursed by The Demon of Short Chambers. With that problem resolved, they make great shooters mostly, though the mandatory inspection by a smith is even more needed.